New units and where existing units will go

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aformeruser

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I thought I'd try and create a complete list of new units that are due to be ordered and where the existing units are due to end up, so if anyone knows about units I've missed off/don't know about then feel free to mention them.

TPE 350s
- Releases 185s to be cascaded internally to provide extra capacity.

LM 350s
- to provide extra capacity.

Thameslink Desiro City
- Releases 377/5s back to Southern. Were due to provide extra capacity but new order may provide that extra capacity instead. Possible could provide 313 replacement or allow some units to be cascaded to SWT
- Releases 319s to Northern and FGW. Should allow internal cascades to provide extra capacity, as the 319 cascade replaced a new DMU order due to provide extra capacity needed by 2012. However, it's possible a small number of units could be cascaded from Northern/FGW to other operators.

St Albans Tram-Train
- Replaces 321s. Future of 321s uncertain.

Sheffield-Rotherham tram-train
- Unlikely to replace any existing services. However, there may be a possibly if any 3/4 car workings are used on heavy rail via Rotherham that they get switched to other services.

Crossrail
- Releases 315s and 365s. Future uncertain and will likely depend on future electrification projects.

Merseyrail EMUs
- Replaces 507/508s. Likely to be written off.

Extra Scotrail 380s
- Future of replaced units uncertain. Transport Scotland says they will provide extra capacity. However, number of extra units very high compared to passenger numbers and rail magazines suggest some 158s will be cascaded south of the border.
 
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swt_passenger

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St Albans branch only uses one 321 of LM's 7. (It is locked in on the branch all day.)

I expect it will just stay with LM, 7 units is about the right number to support having 6 in use each day. They may be needed in future timetables, LM have a plan on the back burner to run a Euston to Watford Jn shuttle service, 321s would be fine for that.
 

Keith Jarrett

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At one time it was suggested that the FGW 165s released by Crossrail might end up on local services around Bristol with Chiltern mopping up any spares. The 166s displaced by the 2nd phase of electrification along the GWML were allegedly destined for the Cardiff - Portsmouth route. But all this may have changed since then.

My understanding is that the majority of 315s displaced by Crossrail will be deemed life-expired although some may end up strenthening Chingford/Enfield services.

313 replacement could be a little problematic as the route requires dual voltage stock and there are clearance problems on the Moorgate branch. I am not aware of any other existing stock that would be suitable for Moorgate without modification in some way. 319s are supposedly too big to fit in the Moorgate tunnels and are 4 car units anyway.

Also remember that Transport Scotland are pressing ahead with their plans to electrify Glasgow - Edinburgh via Falkirk by 2016 so that will presumably mop up quite a few of the additional 380s.

And presumably some of the displaced diesel units will act in some way as pacer replacements.
 

Minstral25

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Thameslink Desiro City
- Releases 377/5s back to Southern. Were due to provide extra capacity but new order may provide that extra capacity instead. Possible could provide 313 replacement or allow some units to be cascaded to SWT
- Releases 319s to Northern and FGW. Should allow internal cascades to provide extra capacity, as the 319 cascade replaced a new DMU order due to provide extra capacity needed by 2012. However, it's possible a small number of units could be cascaded from Northern/FGW to other operators.


Crossrail
- Releases 315s and 365s. Future uncertain and will likely depend on future electrification projects.
Good idea to break it down as there are many views on here.

Southern will not only get back the 377/5's they will also get back the 4 sets of 377/2's that are going on loan in December to create FCC's 12 coach diagrams.

When they return it will allow the South Croydon to Milton Keynes services to be increased to 8 Coaches which cannot be done currently due to lack of dual voltage stock. The West London line being the most overcrowded line currently. The rest may well allow a transfer of older stock from Southern but as I have said before I suspect this won't be the 313's as they had a major refurbishment - more likely the 455/6's or 442's.

Additionally Southern will effectively gain extra units once the London Bridge to Horsham and Caterham/Tattenham services get taken over by Thameslink. Not sure what will happen to the London Bridge to Tonbridge/Reigate services as they can't take 12 coach units and the Three Bridges Thameslink services will probably take their paths

On Crossrail it is 315's and 165's that will be replaced. The 165's have previously been mentioned as going to the West of England and Chiltern due to clearances. Only about 2/3rds of the 315's will be replaced by Crossrail units but presumably some will be needed for the Liverpool Street rush hour relief trains and to strengthen the other class 315 run Lea Valley local services. However they are also life expired without major refurbishment so perhaps the Crossrail order will allow enough new units for the Lee Valley lines.
 

aformeruser

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Ah yes I was thinking of IEP commuter that might replace 365s but I left IEP out because it's under review so may only go ahead in part.
 

Chris125

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313 replacement could be a little problematic as the route requires dual voltage stock and there are clearance problems on the Moorgate branch. I am not aware of any other existing stock that would be suitable for Moorgate without modification in some way. 319s are supposedly too big to fit in the Moorgate tunnels and are 4 car units anyway.
Its been said that 378's have been tested down to Moorgate - can anyone confirm?

Chris
 

tbtc

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Sheffield-Rotherham tram-train
- Unlikely to replace any existing services. However, there may be a possibly if any 3/4 car workings are used on heavy rail via Rotherham that they get switched to other services
The closest you'd get to a 3/4 coach working through Rotherham in normal circumstances would be a 144 on the Sheffield - Dearne Valley - Leeds service (which isn't directly replaced by the Tram Trains and is only equivalent to a two coach Sprinter anyway)

Crossrail
- Releases 315s and 365s
365s will be (partly?) replaced by Thameslink.

Do you mean the 360s at "Heathrow Connect" and NXEA?
 

MacCookie

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Extra Scotrail 380s
- Future of replaced units uncertain. Transport Scotland says they will provide extra capacity. However, number of extra units very high compared to passenger numbers and rail magazines suggest some 158s will be cascaded south of the border.
All the 380s have been delivered. The only units released were the 322s.

Ewan
 

aformeruser

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All the 380s have been delivered. The only units released were the 322s.
Isn't Glasgow-Edinburgh via Falkirk to be electrified and switch to EMUs in 2015-2016? I know there was some mention of Scotrail wanting 125mph capable EMUs on Glasgow-Edinburgh but I just said more 380s as I imagine it will be a 380 capable of at least 100mph, based on what's happening with the 350s.
 

jopsuk

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The 125mph bit seems to mainly come from user Rail-Britain- the 2007 report dismissed the idea, but he claims there are newer documents that have restored the idea, but so far refuses to either provide copies, give document titles or details on where the documents can be obtained. If he was to provide such details then we could maybe doubt him less.
 

MacCookie

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Isn't Glasgow-Edinburgh via Falkirk to be electrified and switch to EMUs in 2015-2016? I know there was some mention of Scotrail wanting 125mph capable EMUs on Glasgow-Edinburgh but I just said more 380s as I imagine it will be a 380 capable of at least 100mph, based on what's happening with the 350s.
Yes, new units will be required for EGIP. No mention yet of who will build them though.

There also hasn't been anything mentioned about the cascade that that will result in.

Ewan
 

rail-britain

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Isn't Glasgow-Edinburgh via Falkirk to be electrified and switch to EMUs in 2015-2016? I know there was some mention of Scotrail wanting 125mph capable EMUs on Glasgow-Edinburgh but I just said more 380s as I imagine it will be a 380 capable of at least 100mph, based on what's happening with the 350s.
The Class 380 is already capable of 100mph
Perhaps you want to rename this unit as a Class 38x
The Glasgow South will use a further order of Class 380
I tend to agree though, these are more likely to be sub-classes of each other

Initially the Falkirk High EMU will operate at up to 100mph (110mph if permitted)
The track will be designed for 125mph
Ironically the route used to have HSTs operating at up to 125mph, but recently checked and all these permissions were removed the year after Kings Cross services moved to Glasgow Central
Therefore I would assume these could be reinstated, along with the additional track maintenance that would be required
It will then be up to TS to decide whether to develop such a EMU (based on the Class 380) or stick with what is already in service, but slightly upgraded for the Falkirk High route
 

jopsuk

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What is your source for the plans to run E-G at 125mph? This is a simple question. Either post a copy of the most up to date document, or give the title and the correct contact to go to. Note that the 2007 study dimissed the idea.
 

ainsworth74

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Also can I note that what you're telling us seems to have changed. Originally you told us that the route would be operated by 380s or another EMU at 125mph, now you're telling us that the route will be capable of 125mph but the units will only be operating at 100mph (or 110mph).

Can we see some documentation to prove this?
 

rail-britain

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What is your source for the plans to run E-G at 125mph?
Contact Transport Scotland for a copy of details

The latest report I read advised that the electrification project was for 125mph EMU operation
Initially the EMU would operate at 100mph, but the EMU would be capable of 125mph at a later date (no change in fleet)
This would allow the current Class 380 unit specification to operate, in the event of the new fleet having issues post-delivery
Full specification is due April 2012
 

ainsworth74

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Contact Transport Scotland for a copy of details
Who should we contact at TS? What is the name of the report? Why can't you show us the report or any other documents received from them that show this information?

Well I've emailed Transport Scotland about this and I guess we'll just have to wait and see what they come back with.
 
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Class172

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Where are EMT's extra 158s coming from and what needs to happen in the cascade before they do?


I'm not sure if this is right but:
LM 150 > FGW + Northern
NT 180 > Removed > possibly to FGW
NT 156 > EMT
EMT routes currently operated by single 158s go to 156s
158s cascaded within franchise
 

YorkshireBear

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I'm not sure if this is right but:
LM 150 > FGW + Northern
NT 180 > Removed > possibly to FGW
NT 156 > EMT
EMT routes currently operated by single 158s go to 156s
158s cascaded within franchise
bang on the money :)

the sheffield tram train project will achieve nothing in terms of heavy rail cadcades. i dont think there will be any service changes to northern services there anyway
 

WatcherZero

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the sheffield tram train project will achieve nothing in terms of heavy rail cadcades. i dont think there will be any service changes to northern services there anyway
Yes its an new service (and new stops), not replacing or strengthening an existing heavy rail service.
 

aformeruser

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EMT routes currently operated by single 158s go to 156s
158s cascaded within franchise
Not quite. There are plenty of EMT 158s going around in 2 car formation.

4x158s on Skegness services will be replaced by 4x156s (process has already started.) This will allow more 4 car workings on the Liverpool-Nottingham section of the Liverpool-Norwich service plus allowing a service that currently terminates at Nottingham to continue to Norwich.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
the sheffield tram train project will achieve nothing in terms of heavy rail cadcades. i dont think there will be any service changes to northern services there anyway
I did say if there are any 3 or 4 workings on services via Rotherham it might allow them to be replaced by 2 car working as some Rotherham-Sheffield passengers will transfer to the tram-train.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Christ, thats a long way away :D
They could always lease the 180s for 18-24 months.

Or better still go back in time and get the 180s to run the Scottish services from when they first took over the route. Then there would have been no need to axe the 2 hourly Airport-Windermere service or shorten trains on North TPE and South TPE to have enough stock to cover the Scottish services.
 

swt_passenger

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Southern will not only get back the 377/5's they will also get back the 4 sets of 377/2's that are going on loan in December to create FCC's 12 coach diagrams.
Only 3 units (12 cars) are going to FCC in December.

What did you mean by '4 sets of 377/2s'? Only one of the 12 car trains will use SN stock, the other 3 will be existing 377/5s.
 

YorkshireBear

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I did say if there are any 3 or 4 workings on services via Rotherham it might allow them to be replaced by 2 car working as some Rotherham-Sheffield passengers will transfer to the tram-train.
I know you did. Hence why i said it because you said if so i thought i would bring some clarity.... No offence meant...
 

MK Tom

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If Southern are lending FCC four 377/2s, what's going to run the MKC-South Croydon services? Aren't they overstretched as it is?
 
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