New units and where existing units will go

[swt_passenger]

If Southern are lending FCC four 377/2s, what's going to run the MKC-South Croydon services? Aren't they overstretched as it is?

No, it's 3 units, as one 12 car train. Think of it as SN providing only one of the four new 12 car services - that releases two 377/5s to augment two other 8 car 377/5 services up to 12 car. FCC must be finding the fourth 'extra' unit from their own resources - but of course they are only needed in the peaks, so it is feasible they are just tightening up the time spent under maintenance.

SN are rejigging their diagramming completely in December, but the requirement to lend the 3 units to FCC has always been planned for, since the ITT for the current franchise went out. One known change is that more 313s are to be diagrammed on the west coastway to release 377s...

I don't think there could be any problem with the Milton Keynes services, they only use 4 units on that service AFAICT.

 

[anthony263]

No, it's 3 units, as one 12 car train. Think of it as SN providing only one of the four new 12 car services - that releases two 377/5s to augment two other 8 car 377/5 services up to 12 car. FCC must be finding the fourth 'extra' unit from their own resources - but of course they are only needed in the peaks, so it is feasible they are just tightening up the time spent under maintenance.

SN are rejigging their diagramming completely in December, but the requirement to lend the 3 units to FCC has always been planned for, since the ITT for the current franchise went out. One known change is that more 313s are to be diagrammed on the west coastway to release 377s...

I don't think there could be any problem with the Milton Keynes services, they only use 4 units on that service AFAICT.

Until they go ahead with the platform extensions on the west london line together with getting more units to enable 8 carriage trains to run along that route which is needed as soon as possible especially during the peaks with everyone going to places like Sheperds Bush etc.

Also anyone got any ideas as to what is likely to happen to the Heathrow Connect class 360's & Heathrow express 332's once crossrail is up and running?

 

[swt_passenger]

Until they go ahead with the platform extensions on the west london line together with getting more units to enable 8 carriage trains to run along that route which is needed as soon as possible especially during the peaks with everyone going to places like Sheperds Bush etc.

That's only an undated (albeit highly likely) proposal for 'whenever more rolling stock becomes available' though. Hardly relevant to this December's timetable...

 

[pemma]

The closest you'd get to a 3/4 coach working through Rotherham in normal circumstances would be a 144 on the Sheffield - Dearne Valley - Leeds service (which isn't directly replaced by the Tram Trains and is only equivalent to a two coach Sprinter anyway)

A 3 car 144 has around 10 more seats than a 156 and up to 30 more seats than a Northern 150, plus there's more standing room on a 3 car 144 with 2+2 seating over a 2 car 150 with 3+2 seating. OK there's not that much difference between a 3 car 144 and a 2 car 156 but you did use the term 'Sprinter' loosely.

 

[tbtc]

A 3 car 144 has around 10 more seats than a 156 and up to 30 more seats than a Northern 150, plus there's more standing room on a 3 car 144 with 2+2 seating over a 2 car 150 with 3+2 seating. OK there's not that much difference between a 3 car 144 and a 2 car 156 but you did use the term 'Sprinter' loosely.

A three coach 144 is a lot closer to a two coach Sprinter (in capacity terms) than a three coach Sprinter, however you want to count it.

 

[pemma]

A three coach 144 is a lot closer to a two coach Sprinter (in capacity terms) than a three coach Sprinter, however you want to count it.

Or it's similar in capacity to a 142+153 combination or a 144(2)+153 combination.

 

[Minstral25]

No, it's 3 units, as one 12 car train. Think of it as SN providing only one of the four new 12 car services - that releases two 377/5s to augment two other 8 car 377/5 services up to 12 car. FCC must be finding the fourth 'extra' unit from their own resources - but of course they are only needed in the peaks, so it is feasible they are just tightening up the time spent under maintenance.

SN are rejigging their diagramming completely in December, but the requirement to lend the 3 units to FCC has always been planned for, since the ITT for the current franchise went out. One known change is that more 313s are to be diagrammed on the west coastway to release 377s...

I don't think there could be any problem with the Milton Keynes services, they only use 4 units on that service AFAICT.

I'm sure I have read that it is 4 units going across - one 4 car to create a 12 coach unit and a 12 car set of 3 x 377/2. However you're information is usually correct so maybe I have misunderstood something.

Southern are also extending a lot of services in December (London Metro/East Grinstead) so they must be releasing a lot of 313's to cover for all the "new" units on services

 

[jon0844]

313 replacement could be a little problematic as the route requires dual voltage stock and there are clearance problems on the Moorgate branch. I am not aware of any other existing stock that would be suitable for Moorgate without modification in some way. 319s are supposedly too big to fit in the Moorgate tunnels and are 4 car units anyway.

A 378 has already been tested, so I expect this (or something similar) will be used when the 313s eventually get replaced. Personally, I'd be happy with them being refurbished to the standard that Southern did - but I guess that won't be an option as they'll get a new fleet. (Of course, the trains may end up elsewhere and refurbished - so may not be scrapped just yet!)

It's always been little more than a rumour that London Overground might take over the operation of the line to Hertford and Welwyn Garden City - but with the acceptance of Oyster and the extension of the zones likely to happen next year, it seems even more likely that this will happen - perhaps when the current FCC franchise ends?

 

[swt_passenger]

I'm sure I have read that it is 4 units going across - one 4 car to create a 12 coach unit and a 12 car set of 3 x 377/2.

I was mainly going by FCC's recent website announcement which is that they are 'hiring 12 carriages'; but that also complies with the various franchise specs.

There was an idea originally that the units would stay with SN for maintenance and just be diagrammed to FCC daily, or weekly (a bit like the SWT 158 that runs with FGW based at Salisbury), but there have recently been whispers that they will keep the same three units throughout and they may be rebranded somehow.

 

[sprinterguy]

Also anyone got any ideas as to what is likely to happen to the Heathrow Connect class 360's & Heathrow express 332's once crossrail is up and running?

Crossrail won't be affecting the Heathrow Express services, so the 332s will be staying put, it is only the Connect services that will be replaced by Crossrail, though it is not yet known (The completion of Crossrail is still a fair way off) where the 360/2s will be moved to.

 

[swt_passenger]

Crossrail won't be affecting the Heathrow Express services, so the 332s will be staying put, it is only the Connect services that will be replaced by Crossrail, though it is not yet known (The completion of Crossrail is still a fair way off) where the 360/2s will be moved to.

Crossrail's own plans don't replace HEx, but the more recent London and SE RUS final version changes things a great deal and does have Crossrail replacing HEx, indeed it now proposes a combined 10 tph Crossrail service to Heathrow, with some running on the fasts offpeak.

 

[sprinterguy]

Crossrail's own plans don't replace HEx, but the more recent London and SE RUS final version changes things a great deal and does have Crossrail replacing HEx, indeed it now proposes a combined 10 tph Crossrail service to Heathrow, with some running on the fasts offpeak.

Ah, so the specification is changing. I'm pleased to hear this, as I think it would make much more sense to run all of the Heathrow shuttles as part of Crossrail with the wider range of cross-London connections that it'll offer.

I also have a vested interest in wanting to see the 332s moved to join their class 333 sisters in Yorkshire, replacing the 321/9s and 322s for cascade elsewhere and while they're at it providing sufficient stock to run an electrified Harrogate circle...

 

[Old Timer]

...Ironically the route used to have HSTs operating at up to 125mph, but recently checked and all these permissions were removed the year after Kings Cross services moved to Glasgow Central .....

I was only aware of the line speed being at most 100mph in that area. I was not aware of any 125mph running on that line, or indeed west of Edinburgh, and I believe that the HSTs to Glasgow only ran at 100mph max.

The reduction of any line speed would require approval from the ORR and I am aware it is a somewhat tortuous process.

Perhaps you could let us have some more information about the 125mph sections on the Edinburgh - Glasgow line as I am intrgued now ?

 

[anthony263]

Crossrail won't be affecting the Heathrow Express services, so the 332s will be staying put, it is only the Connect services that will be replaced by Crossrail, though it is not yet known (The completion of Crossrail is still a fair way off) where the 360/2s will be moved to.

If they were 4 carriage sets, then if they re-opened the Portishead branch as well as electrifying it if they decided to do the severn beach line and the Bristol Parkway - Gloucester bit as well they could be used there.

I think an hourly Portishead - Bristol - Gloucester service would be great especially since it would help with the overcrowding on the route between Bristol & Gloucester.

 

[BR Blue]

Any thoughts on the future of Virgins class 90 "pretendolino"?

I`m sure its only in service to cover the loss of the pendolino set at Grayrigg. Now that the extra carriages and the 4 additional sets are coming into service, will it still be needed? If not, where could it go?

 

[DXMachina]

Any thoughts on the future of Virgins class 90 "pretendolino"?

I'm sure its only in service to cover the loss of the pendolino set at Grayrigg. Now that the extra carriages and the 4 additional sets are coming into service, will it still be needed? If not, where could it go?

Into a shed for a few years then Paddington-Cardiff

 

[tbtc]

Any thoughts on the future of Virgins class 90 "pretendolino"?

I'm sure its only in service to cover the loss of the pendolino set at Grayrigg. Now that the extra carriages and the 4 additional sets are coming into service, will it still be needed? If not, where could it go?

90s can't keep to 91 paths on the ECML (other than hoping that they can cope on stoppers), but maybe the "fast" FCC London - Cambridge/ Peterborough services? That might spare a couple of 365s up?

Or the one/ day NXEA service which uses a 321 from London to Norwich?

 

[jopsuk]

Or the one/ day NXEA service which uses a 321 from London to Norwich?

If Virgin were truly finished with it, and if the franchise wasn't about to be taken over by somone apparently intent on slimming the fleet a little, I'm sure it would be welcomed by travellers on the GE as a permanent addition to the fleet.

 

[ainsworth74]

Contact Transport Scotland for a copy of details

The latest report I read advised that the electrification project was for 125mph EMU operation
Initially the EMU would operate at 100mph, but the EMU would be capable of 125mph at a later date (no change in fleet)

Well I've emailed Transport Scotland about this and I guess we'll just have to wait and see what they come back with.

Apologies for digging up this rather old thread but I've now received a response from Transport Scotland (who I contacted on the advice of Rail Britain) and felt I should share it. It shows that EGIP will deliver 100mph line speeds and as such the rolling stock will also operate at 100mph. To quote:

Transport Scotland has specified that 100mph maximum permissible speed will be retained where it already exists and where reasonably practical, increased to 100mph on route sections where currently permissible line speeds are less than 100mph

and

The new trains will require greater acceleration and deceleration to achieve the EGIP journey time objectives, top speed will be limited to 100mph to match the maximum permissible line speed.

You can read the whole thing in the attached PDF.

 

[swt_passenger]

Nice one.

Another railway myth busted...

 

[yorkie]

ainsworth74 - We have absolutely no problem with old threads being dug up providing the information is relevant and adds to the topic, which is very much the case here. Thanks for looking into this

Several members have expressed concerns that a small number of members have been posting incorrect information on several occasions, as we certainly don't want misinformation to be spread on this forum. Of course, people make mistakes, that's fine, but sometimes it goes beyond that, and that needs challenging.

 

[tbtc]

Apologies for digging up this rather old thread but I've now received a response from Transport Scotland (who I contacted on the advice of Rail Britain) and felt I should share it. It shows that EGIP will deliver 100mph line speeds and as such the rolling stock will also operate at 100mph

Excellent work, Agent Ainsworth

(I'd much rather continue discussions in a thread like this, rather than end up having the same old discussion in a brand new thread and duplicating things that have already been said)

 

[jopsuk]

Good work!

 

[Class172]

Good work.

(I'd much rather continue discussions in a thread like this, rather than end up having the same old discussion in a brand new thread and duplicating things that have already been said)

Agreed, I've lost count now how many times I (and many other posters) have had to post the same thing in multiple threads.

 

[ainsworth74]

Thanks people

I wonder if rail-britain would like to comment on the email from TS

 

[anthony263]

Nice work well done

 

[YorkshireBear]

Nice work Makes sense, dont see a great need to up it to 125mph for a minimal time saving.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Apologies for digging up this rather old thread but I've now received a response from Transport Scotland (who I contacted on the advice of Rail Britain) and felt I should share it. It shows that EGIP will deliver 100mph line speeds and as such the rolling stock will also operate at 100mph. To quote:
and
You can read the whole thing in the attached PDF.

Well you only have to read the Network Rail CP5 plan in the recent IIP.
http://www.networkrail.co.uk/upload..._Plans/Route Specifications 2011 Scotland.pdf

For E-G It says 100mph with an uplift to 105mph in the "+10 years" horizon.
The only mention of new 125mph running in Scotland is as an "aspiration" on the Edinburgh-Carstairs line (currently up to 105mph and without tilt, so probably means installing TASS to get 125 EPS speeds).