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SouthEastern franchise direct award through to 1 April 2020 (& franchise competition terminated)
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cactustwirly
Established Member
Well the last rumour was that none of the bids were compliant, and that the bidders had to resubmit their bids
It's been moved to speculation which is a bit hidden away.
Yes rumours have swirled that bids needed submitting again and it was last week delayed yet again. It's not a steller list of bidders. Incumbent GoVia, also of Thameslink infamy, Stagecoach who handed back east coast and Abellio who appear to have issues with GA, as seen in the other thread on the main page.
Yes rumours have swirled that bids needed submitting again and it was last week delayed yet again. It's not a steller list of bidders. Incumbent GoVia, also of Thameslink infamy, Stagecoach who handed back east coast and Abellio who appear to have issues with GA, as seen in the other thread on the main page.
The winner is almost in sight.
The bids had to be re-submitted twice, but the main change was around the pension issue (for those who are unaware, the Pension regulator has ruled that the schemes are underfunded). There is at least one compliant bid - and there always was.
The bids had to be re-submitted twice, but the main change was around the pension issue (for those who are unaware, the Pension regulator has ruled that the schemes are underfunded). There is at least one compliant bid - and there always was.
3141
Established Member
So who might be on a stellar list of bidders?
First: have made provision for losses at TPE, things not going as planned at SWR, frequently criticised at GWR.
Arriva (which now = DB): standard target of criticism by many posters.
National Express: as above, and have now left British railway operations.
Trenitilia: new to British railway scene, seem to be doing well at C2C/Essex Thameside, but that was a good TOC to invest in and a relatively straightforward operation.
Keolis: partner with Go-Ahead in Govia operations.
There are some Japanese and Chinese companies in partnership with two existing TOCs or bidding for other franchises, but there is no long-term performance in Britain to judge them by.
MTR: I cannot comment on their performance on TfL Rail; they may be wishing they weren't a partner in SWR.
Danish State Railways bid unsuccessfully for some franchises ten or so years ago.
There was Prism Rail.
There was GB Railways, who ran Anglia, who were considered successful, and ran GBRf which is still under the same management (I think) who seem to know what they're doing.
There are probably a few others that I don't remember, who bid unsuccessfully, and decided it wasn't worth it.
1. I thought the DfT terminated them.
One presumes that there was a desire that there be some sort of competition on something other than just the pension issue so re-bidding was required to actually give some competition on things
Doesn't matter who wins it. It's running at capacity. They'll paint the doors a different colour, give the staff a new uniform and carry on as before. The SE network on all its approaches to London is full. New trains or new shareholders taking profits from it won't improve anything for passengers until the whole lot of it gets digital signalling, which I can't see happening any time soon. All the bidders are looking at is how best to make a pound note out of it.
It lied. Well, it told a version of the truth that TPR wants changed.
Jeremy Long, who was at GBRail (and then a short time at First), is now at MTR. MTR generally prefer smaller TOCs.
As Ainsworth said, plus they wanted to get the pension situation sorted. They achieved a good number of their aims at the cost of many weeks delay.
My view is that the winning bidder will be lucky to make a pound note out of it. The steady switch away from 5-days-a-week commuting is biting all the London Commuting TOCs.
Why would a company bid for a franchise it couldn't make a profit out of? These are private companies that exist solely to make money. They do not run railways at a loss out of some altruistic public duty. If a firm cant turn a profit from a TOC they won't run it.
It's also worth noting that a HUGE number of passengers travel without tickets on the Southeastern metro area. A revenue inspector once told me that "almost everyone" boarding at Swanscombe and Northfleet is travelling without a ticket. Those stations are a magnet for anti-social behaviour and fare evasion (I'm not singling them out, but using them as an example of a much wider problem) and the revenue inspectors and REOs seldom go down there, although you'll often see them hanging around major crime hotspots like Bickley and Shortlands. The stations are unstaffed much or all of the day and many passengers, especially at night, feel vulnerable or threatened. It's horrible. It's interesting that profit-driven companies knowingly allow people to dodge their fare and create havoc for those who do pay. Presumably it's cheaper to not employ (or deploy) the staff to deal with it.
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What they bid for and what they get are not the same thing. Success for a bidding team is winning; the group tries to prevent this becoming the main focus as they want to "win at the right price", but it doesn't always work. See VTEC, GA, SWR, etc.
I don't really have an answer as to why revenue protection is so poor - it seems to me that SE have a history (whoever is running the franchise) of relying on their gates, even though they're not always manned, and the conductors. I know that their own figures show that ticketless travel is high at some stations and some times of day and I have no doubt that they could meaningfully reduce this at a reasonable cost. Why they haven't I can only put down to incompetence in the relevant management, which will also be largely unchanged whoever is running the franchise. Hopefully some new blood at the top will make a difference, but I wouldn't hold my breath if I were you.
Totally agree with this. When it was first privatised and Connex had it it got so bad, so quickly. Brixton (For example) was an open air drugs market for years and late trains on quiet routes were bloody scary! They still are in many places although the gentrification of Brixton has moved the problem on from there. They can't rely on barriers or conductors on the metro routes because most stations are unbarriered and all trains are unguarded. It's literally a freebie, especially late at night, and everyone knows. Its been like that for well over 20 years. Whole generations in SE London and Kent have grown up NEVER paying for a ticket!
Fare dodging is massive on south eastern. You only have to see the numbers who run when a rare check happens.
Why has it never been cracked down on? No will it seems - especially if revenue from it goes to DfT. It's so endemic i can't believe they wouldn't act if they could retain the revenue. As it is, with short term extensions every few months why hire and train the staff?
Why has it never been cracked down on? No will it seems - especially if revenue from it goes to DfT. It's so endemic i can't believe they wouldn't act if they could retain the revenue. As it is, with short term extensions every few months why hire and train the staff?
urpert
Member
Agreed. It always surprises me to move a couple of miles west into South Central land and discover the number of stations that are a similar size to my local ones, yet are properly barriered.
HH - are we still expecting to wait until Feb for an announcement (assuming you’re willing to say)?
HH - are we still expecting to wait until Feb for an announcement (assuming you’re willing to say)?
IceAgeComing
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I live in Abbey Wood and a few weeks ago I had to go and receive a suitcase from my parents containing some more stuff. I used the wide gate to get out since it’s easier and then as I was going through some guy just walked passed me as I was going through the barrier making no effort to hide or whatever and the staff (TfL and not Southeastern there to clarify although I think that they might be ex-Southeastern based on things I’ve overheard when there have been problems) who saw it did absolutely nothing even though they clearly saw it. When the staff don’t enforce the stuff then it’s natural that people will evade fares - and that’s at a station that is at a station that is totally barriered and should be relatively safe from fare evasion if they enforced their own rules.
The problem is that fare evasion is so endemic that it's not worth station staff confronting certain individuals because it causes confrontation and the staff have to work there day in, day out. The gateline assistants are not there to have arguments with local scrotes. I used to work gateline and was told in my training, by my manager and by my colleagues not to get into confrontations with fare evaders. Abbey Wood is an area you don't want to make enemies in and if you work at the station they will return again and again to make your life hard. That's why they have revenue inspectors and REOs but they seldom turn up in the problem areas, if at all. Too busy hanging about Bickley and Shortlands!
If it hadn't been essentially free for the last twenty-odd years then the local attitude of "I ain't paying" wouldn't prevail. That culture will take a lot of fixing.
I had my Oyster checked just an hour ago at Penge East. Free travel is a way of life in the SE suburban area. I'd be surprised whoever wins doesn't put barriers in at most stations. That said, the key stations: Central London termini, Lewisham, Bromley South, Greenwich, Woolwich A, Dartford, Orpington, Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill all have barriers, so maybe it's just hasn't been considered worth the cost installing barriers and adding the staff to man all the other stations because most people go through the main stations.
Guys, the winner will be decided soon. I know who it's likely to be, but they still have a few hurdles to clear.
An announcement before Xmas seems unlikely, but there must be some pressure because the franchise is due to start April 1 (normally TOCs are allowed 3 months for mobilisation). DfT has not called another extension for LSER, as far as I know. Early January would be the latest if one is not called I would say, although nothing is certain in this world.
An announcement before Xmas seems unlikely, but there must be some pressure because the franchise is due to start April 1 (normally TOCs are allowed 3 months for mobilisation). DfT has not called another extension for LSER, as far as I know. Early January would be the latest if one is not called I would say, although nothing is certain in this world.
But the barriers are not always staffed.
Meerkat - nope many busy places are not barriered. Woolwich A was the only barriered station on that line until recently when TfL took over Abbey Wood. Even then its only to early evening and often open. And people can just go Woolwich D and walk quickly to parts of Woolwich.
Every other station is open apart from London terminals, so why pay for a bus to busy towns like Plumstead, Erith, Charlton, Deptford, Blackheath or Greenwich?
If numbers were accurately counted the area would probably see more rolling stock. Sadly for those that pay, they don't get it and have to share busy trains with fare dodgers. No wonder even honest people start to wonder why they bother.
Every other station is open apart from London terminals, so why pay for a bus to busy towns like Plumstead, Erith, Charlton, Deptford, Blackheath or Greenwich?
If numbers were accurately counted the area would probably see more rolling stock. Sadly for those that pay, they don't get it and have to share busy trains with fare dodgers. No wonder even honest people start to wonder why they bother.
When I travel from Tottenham Hale (entering the station to the Underground), I've had more than one occasion where large groups have split up and doubled up with people going through. The poor person at the gateline can do absolutely nothing.
They're hardly subtle and are quite loud, laughing and shouting at each other. Not only do staff obviously notice, but many passengers do too. I've seen some passengers stop and have a go at the person who pushed through with them, which is probably not the wisest move.
I assume they do exactly the same at their destination. They know revenue staff are not going to intervene, so they seem to get off on having 'the power'. I can't help but assume that once emboldened with things like fare evasion, they gradually push their luck with other things until they become virtually unstoppable.
For Bromley most of them get off at Shortlands and walk up the hill. For Victoria many get off at Brixton and touch the oyster card readers on the platform before getting back on the same train, thus saving the fare up through all the zones they just went through. It's so rife at Brixton it's actually funny to watch. Nunhead is another hotspot for this. And that's just the respectable middle class fare evaders - the badmen don't bother, they just double through or jump over the barriers.
Catford Bridge is a busy station with no barriers; the Hayes Line is a free for all.
For many, getting a train is just like getting the bus; people often use the train just to go a couple stops. I sometimes go from Penge East to Beckenham Jun or Lower Sydenham to West Wickham instead of using the 194/352. Many probably go from Grove Park to Bromley North - none of those stations mentioned have barriers. But even so, may do just double up, it's quite a normal sight if I'm honest.
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