SouthEastern franchise direct award through to 1 April 2020 (& franchise competition terminated)

[hwl]

Expecting the bidders to know how many news homes will be built, for example, is a massive risk. At least TfL have much more experience on that front than the DfT or franchises given the GLA's work in that area.

All the bidders know DfT has underestimated home building in the area hence it is a bit of upside built in for them.

 

[theageofthetra]

All the bidders know DfT has underestimated home building in the area hence it is a bit of upside built in for them.

TFL have hardly been much better than the DFT in anticipating homebuilding. How much extra DLR capacity is there at Lewisham despite the hundreds of new flats that have been built next to the station?

 

[Shug]

Surely any further delay will potentially cause SE problems in terms of staff, particularly drivers, leaving for other TOC’s where pay difference is considerable at same depots ie Gillingham/Orpington/Ashford as a SE pay deal cannot happen until franchise is sorted

Really the DFT need to make the position clear rather than let this drag on

 

[ScotGG]

TFL have hardly been much better than the DFT in anticipating homebuilding. How much extra DLR capacity is there at Lewisham despite the hundreds of new flats that have been built next to the station?

TfL have been in conversation with Lewisham Council closely and even asked Lewisham to delay approval of some towers. Network Rail and Southeastern didn't respond to the consultation. That's common with new developments. Franchises and NR aren't on top of it. TfL were ignored in that instance in Lewisham.

https://853london.com/2017/12/05/dlr-crush-leads-to-tfl-worries-over-34-storey-lewisham-tower/

At least the DLR has a plan for expansion and new stock coming even with TfL financial issues. Southeastern metro staggers along with little direction or strategy from the DfT.

 

[ComUtoR]

At least the DLR has a plan for expansion and new stock coming even with TfL financial issues. Southeastern metro staggers along with little direction or strategy from the DfT.

As far as I'm aware SE also have new stock planned

 

[ScotGG]

Until it's confirmed I'd take anything with a pinch of salt.

The way SE has been treated who knows if it'll be a year or three until something happens.

 

[Class 466]

As far as I'm aware SE also have new stock planned

In the next franchise bidders will have done this, but the current Franchise does not have any further stock on order.

 

[HH]

Those comments were 6 days a part a lot could change in the interim.

Indeed. One of the i's was failed to be dotted. Sometimes if you miss a committee you have to wait 4 weeks for the next.

In the next franchise bidders will have done this, but the current Franchise does not have any further stock on order.

This is definitely the case. They already got the 377s from GTR.

 

[Geogregor]

Surely any further delay will potentially cause SE problems in terms of staff, particularly drivers, leaving for other TOC’s where pay difference is considerable at same depots ie Gillingham/Orpington/Ashford as a SE pay deal cannot happen until franchise is sorted

Really the DFT need to make the position clear rather than let this drag on

It's not only the drivers, hiring is minimal and agency staff use increased.

Station maintenance also suffers. Nothing gets done, everyone is playing waiting game. Only things which have to get fixed do get fixed (and you actually have to fight for it) otherwise everything deteriorates. I wonder how about rolling stock maintenance. I'm sure they avoid any major expenditure until anyone knows what the future of the franchise is.

It is a general feel of paralysis. It can't continue indefinitely.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

It's not only the drivers, hiring is minimal and agency staff use increased.

I will say their recruitment process did grind to a halt, nearly 2 years ago I applied for a trainee conductor position, had an assessment centre day, and was told I will be contacted once they were ready, I've recently had an interview and does look like they are filling positions, I will guess they are pushing forward with their recruitment needs due to either something HH already knows, or the DfT requires them to transfer a set number of staff via TUPE either way the training process won't result in any new staff being trained by the same company if there's a change and the first train they take control of won't be before any planned switchover

Its weird, Whilst I'm not complaining about a job I've wanted to do for a longtime, I'm a little nervous about who'll be my employer long term if I get it

 

[ComUtoR]

I will guess they are pushing forward with their recruitment needs due to either something HH already knows,

Recruitment never really changes. It just ticks over at the pace it does because the system isn't efficient. Courses are planned well in advance.

either way the training process won't result in any new staff being trained by the same company if there's a change and the first train they take control of won't be before any planned switchover

The name on the door has little impact on the day to day. There isn't a sudden change in staff and neither is there a sudden change to the internal processes. You can quite literally start training under one company and end under a new one. You truly barely notice anything. Other than a few emails flying about and potentially another new uniform, name badge, and a new coat of paint on the station.

Its weird, Whilst I'm not complaining about a job I've wanted to do for a longtime, I'm a little nervous about who'll be my employer long term if I get it

I wouldn't worry about it in the slightest. I'd be more concerned about travel facilities

Good luck with the job.

 

[Geogregor]

I wouldn't worry about it in the slightest. I'd be more concerned about travel facilities

Actually this is my main concern. Having a GTR pass on top of the SE staff card is handy in south London (and Sussex)

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Actually this is my main concern. Having a GTR pass on top of the SE staff card is handy in south London (and Sussex)

No one in their right mind (maybe only because its free) would willingly choose to take a train to Peterborough on a TL service, it'd be hell, so the pass benefits start looking less and less limited

 

[ComUtoR]

It's not just about going to Peterborough. GTR+SE link quite nicely and covers a range of services. The most advantageous thing about any TOC pass is that it costs nothing and gives you the flexibility to turn up and get on any service you want. Not only that; it's FREE.

 

[Class 466]

It's not just about going to Peterborough. GTR+SE link quite nicely and covers a range of services. The most advantageous thing about any TOC pass is that it costs nothing and gives you the flexibility to turn up and get on any service you want. Not only that; it's FREE.

Do bare in mind that regardless of who wins this - the TSGN franchise will be broken up soon anyway and I think it’s rather unlikely that all parts will stay within the same company...

Just be glad Trenitalia pulled out - free travel on c2c is hardly anything to shout about

 

[Class 466]

As a side note- the SW Franchise winner was announced pretty much exactly 4 months prior to the start date - that date for this one would be the 23rd February, so there’s a while yet (although that is a Saturday).

 

[bionic]

Interestinger and interestinger... I'm fully expecting them to split metro operations off from the coastal stuff. Either they'll do it straight off the bat or have an interim phase while they gear up for it. Driver and guard wise, it's effectively two different franchises anyway with coastal and metro staff not having a huge amount to do with one another.

They can ping Grove Park and Charing Cross's mainline work down to Tonbridge and Ashford, Gillingham and Faversham can pick up Vic's mainline work and those depots can palm their metro jobs off on Grove Park, Charing Cross and Vic. Half of Orpington can move across to Thameslink with the work and, hey presto, it's all good to go.

 

[03_179]

Do bare in mind that regardless of who wins this - the TSGN franchise will be broken up soon anyway and I think it’s rather unlikely that all parts will stay within the same company...

Really ?

Working within GTR we've not heard a single thing about this ... Where have you got that info?

 

[Class 466]

Really ?

Working within GTR we've not heard a single thing about this ... Where have you got that info?

From it's inception the TSGN franchise was always a one off thing with it being broken back up when it finishes in 2021.

 

[hwl]

From it's inception the TSGN franchise was always a one off thing with it being broken back up when it finishes in 2021.

DfT haven't mentioned anything much in the last year on it apart from possibly Moorgate devolution to TfL

 

[03_179]

I'll ask the question of a director next time one is nearby ...

 

[pdeaves]

From it's inception the TSGN franchise was always a one off thing with it being broken back up when it finishes in 2021.

Class 466 is right. There was a 'big thing' made about this; it was to do with making things easier to manage during the London Bridge works. That is also, I believe, why the constituent brands were retained. Unfortunately I cannot immediately point to something official to confirm (though I haven't looked very hard at all).

 

[ComUtoR]

and, with the completion of the Thameslink Programme we intend splitting the Thameslink, Southern and Great Northern franchise as planned, including potentially transferring some services to Transport for London, for example the West London Line.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...connecting-people-a-strategic-vision-for-rail

The SE breakup and split off to TfL was rumored and quashed some time ago. Whatever happens will happen. 2021 is a long way off (personally)

 

[ScotGG]

It wasn't just a rumour with TfL taking over SE metro. Grayling's predecessor agreed to it and put on a big PR event. Grayling reversed that and has kept it with the DfT (which is going well with endless delays)

 

[theageofthetra]

From it's inception the TSGN franchise was always a one off thing with it being broken back up when it finishes in 2021.

Is there any possibility that the Mainline & High Speed will be one franchise and the Metro work will join the GTR metro routes south of Blackfriars?

 

[43074]

Is there any possibility that the Mainline & High Speed will be one franchise and the Metro work will join the GTR metro routes south of Blackfriars?

If the Southeastern franchise was being split we would know about it already because it would have been in the DfT tender documents released before the bids were submitted - no in a word. Doesn't really makes sense to split it anyway as SE seems to work quite well as it is, and you don't have the added complication of two TOCs using Charing Cross or Cannon Street.

 

[hwl]

It wasn't just a rumour with TfL taking over SE metro. Grayling's predecessor agreed to it and put on a big PR event. Grayling reversed that and has kept it with the DfT (which is going well with endless delays)

TfL hadn't realised the what they were wanting to take over and the resources needed for their plans, they made no allowance for decreased efficiency when splitting the franchise which would require more stock and staff (worse than the ~4% when Anglia was split into Anglia, TfL rail and LO(WA) in 2015) and plenty of other issues (e.g. Ignoring paths for then current and future TL services). No funding allocated for the Lewisham rebuild need to cope with their proposed service pattern changes...

When Dft looked at it in detail it didn't look like such a good idea.

 

[Mikey C]

TfL hadn't realised the what they were wanting to take over and the resources needed for their plans, they made no allowance for decreased efficiency when splitting the franchise which would require more stock and staff (worse than the ~4% when Anglia was split into Anglia, TfL rail and LO(WA) in 2015) and plenty of other issues (e.g. Ignoring paths for then current and future TL services). No funding allocated for the Lewisham rebuild need to cope with their proposed service pattern changes...

When Dft looked at it in detail it didn't look like such a good idea.

The TfL halo has faded somewhat over the last year anyway...

 

[HH]

I'll ask the question of a director next time one is nearby ...

What makes you think that they'll know? The DfT think they're going to be split up and I'd guess they have a rather better idea.

 

[hwl]

What makes you think that they'll know? The DfT think they're going to be split up and I'd guess they have a rather better idea.

Agreed, too big to fail comes to mind but realistically to big to let as a conventional franchise as well (no one has the balance sheet)