Nexus Metro & Merseyrail: What is the difference?

[johnnychips]

Supertram?

Edit: I’d better explain that this is the Sheffield tram/tram-train system for the unaware.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

• Unlike heavy rail, uses KMPH instead of MPH

The heavy rail Cambrian now uses km/h and so will all ETCS-fitted lines, cabs included.
HS1 also uses km/h and HS2 will use km/h for the same reason.
Might take a while to convert Merseyrail, mind.

 

[S&CLER]

The heavy rail Cambrian now uses km/h and so will all ETCS-fitted lines, cabs included.
HS1 also uses km/h and so will HS2 will use km/h for the same reason.
Might take a while to convert Merseyrail, mind,

If Merseyrail were converted to km, the zero point would probably be on the Northern line platform at Central (you can see it painted on the wall). This is the current meeting point of the old Mersey Railway mileage, the old CLC mileage from zero at Central High Level, and L&Y mileage from Manchester Victoria via the Wigan avoiding line, which was extended along the Link line through Moorfields in 1977. The Loop has its own separate mileage.
Remeasuring appeals to the tidy-minded, but it looks like a cost without much benefit to me.

 

[BigCj34]

A conversation about West Yorkshire Metro cannot be complete without the attached.

To throw more into the mix. What would you call Rapid Transit/ Mass Transit?

Looking deeper into it, the City of Leeds does have 15 railway stations, with many more in West Yorkshire having stations. As my previous definition meant an urban area (which West Yorkshire is). Geographically I would say it does qualify though there may need to be an increase in service provision to provide the turn up and go frequencies a metro should have.

So the UK definition is a rail, not-a-tram, network that is self contained and outside of the auspices of Network Rail and does not show up in National Rail route planners. A little arbitrary.

 

[Djgr]

Looking deeper into it, the City of Leeds does have 15 railway stations, with many more in West Yorkshire having stations. As my previous definition meant an urban area (which West Yorkshire is). Geographically I would say it does qualify though there may need to be an increase in service provision to provide the turn up and go frequencies a metro should have.

So the UK definition is a rail, not-a-tram, network that is self contained and outside of the auspices of Network Rail and does not show up in National Rail route planners. A little arbitrary.

Well I think that the conclusion is that there isn't really an agreed definition but we could come up with one if we felt that it was worthwhile (but this would still be contested)

 

[Vespa]

I personally think it more of a PR brand than a legal definition

 

[edwin_m]

If Merseyrail were converted to km, the zero point would probably be on the Northern line platform at Central (you can see it painted on the wall). This is the current meeting point of the old Mersey Railway mileage, the old CLC mileage from zero at Central High Level, and L&Y mileage from Manchester Victoria via the Wigan avoiding line, which was extended along the Link line through Moorfields in 1977. The Loop has its own separate mileage.
Remeasuring appeals to the tidy-minded, but it looks like a cost without much benefit to me.

Rail engineering normally works in km and metres anyway, for example recent signaling plans will identify the position of each feature in metres (including the mileposts). On the ones I've seen the metres figure is measured from the same zero point as the miles and chains as you suggest, so it's easy enough to convert between them.

I think the key issue here is that the signage for drivers is in mph on Merseyrail (along with the rest of NR except the Cambrian) and in km/h on the Metro.

 

[Driver068]

Would you say these differences are also mirrored by your so called normal TOCs and FOCs. You see alot of companies NOT recognising these drivers in a Qualified capacity so there for are unable to apply for qualified jobs, but thats not all conpamies.

So really is there a major difference between Metro drivers and Qualified drivers?

 

[stut]

Supertram?

When I was young, it seemed that life was so wonderful, a miracle, oh it was beautiful, magical.

Oh no, my mistake, sorry.

 

[AutoKratz]

Would you say these differences are also mirrored by your so called normal TOCs and FOCs. You see alot of companies NOT recognising these drivers in a Qualified capacity so there for are unable to apply for qualified jobs, but thats not all conpamies.

So really is there a major difference between Metro drivers and Qualified drivers?

There’s a driver shortage at the moment on the TW Metro as loads of the drivers have left for Transpennine Express, Grand Central, Northern and freight companies over the last 5 years or so.

As for the difference between metro drivers and qualified drivers the only major difference I can think of is the metro doesn’t use AWS / TPWS. It uses the German Punktförmige Zugbeeinflussung Indusi Train Stop safety system instead.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There’s a driver shortage at the moment on the TW Metro as loads of the drivers have left for Transpennine Express, Grand Central, Northern and freight companies over the last 5 years or so.

As for the difference between metro drivers and qualified drivers the only major difference I can think of is the metro doesn’t use AWS / TPWS. It uses the German Punktförmige Zugbeeinflussung Indusi Train Stop safety system instead.

Merseyrail, by contrast, uses LU style trainstops on the underground sections...so not mainline standard either! TPWS up top I believe.

 

[Driver068]

I believe for TPE and GC - They've had to do a course to cover some rules to get up to the required level.
Ive heard they dont do full rules as a Qualified driver and also do not posses a European train drivers licence.

So why not make them established in order to apply for respective TOCs so they can apply to the likes of LNER or XC without the restrictions of being labled a Metro driver

Is this same format for MerseyRail

 

[sprunt]

To throw another question into the mix, is there a formal definition of "heavy rail" and "light rail" or is that another know it when you see it thing?

 

[jamesst]

Merseyrail, by contrast, uses LU style trainstops on the underground sections...so not mainline standard either! TPWS up top I believe.

Theres TPWS at a few locations underground in addition to the train stops, mostly covering over speed sensors and junction signals.
Of course Merseyrail drivers also have to deal with green to red signalling in the Liverpool loop, not sure if that's replicated anywhere else on the national system!

 

[AutoKratz]

Of course Merseyrail drivers also have to deal with green to red signalling in the Liverpool loop, not sure if that's replicated anywhere else on the national system!

That’s interesting I didn’t know that. The signalling on the TW Metro is also green to red but they use a triangular traffic light sign as a substitute for a yellow signal.

 

[edwin_m]

Unless it's changed since the early days, Metro only uses green to red when both signals are at successive stations so the trains will all stop regardless of the signal aspect. Where the stations are far enough apart to need an intermediate section, then the intermediate stop signal has a yellow/green repeater.

 

[AutoKratz]

Unless it's changed since the early days, Metro only uses green to red when both signals are at successive stations so the trains will all stop regardless of the signal aspect. Where the stations are far enough apart to need an intermediate section, then the intermediate stop signal has a yellow/green repeater.

Absolutely, it's still the same. When the traffic light sign is used instead of a yellow signal there's always a metro station between the sign and the next signal which could be red.

 

[swt_passenger]

To throw another question into the mix, is there a formal definition of "heavy rail" and "light rail" or is that another know it when you see it thing?

I doubt there’s a standard definition that everyone agrees with.

As an example of how one organisation sees it, you could look at the RAIB website. They have 4 groupings, and stick both LU and Tyne Wear into the “Metro” bracket. They seem to consider “light rail” to mean trams.

 

[Jonny]

Merseyrail has more in common with London Underground compared to Tyne & Wear.

Merseyrail is a self contained third rail system with underground stations.

The Tyne & Wear Metro system also has underground stations, mostly in Newcastle (Central Station (directly linked to Newcastle National Rail station), Monument, Haymarket, St. James are deep and Jesmond/Manors are at the edges of the deep tunnel sections) but also Gateshead. Also the T&W Metro Electrification is DC, albeit 1500V with overhead equipment.

Also, the T&W Metro has Indusi-style train protection in place.

 

[Jonny]

Absolutely, it's still the same. When the traffic light sign is used instead of a yellow signal there's always a metro station between the sign and the next signal which could be red.

Does the Metro use a yellow signal if required immediately before a station, even if the line is clear beyond the station? Only saying because it is possible for passengers to see out of the front and I think I spotted something like that once.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The Tyne & Wear Metro system also has underground stations, mostly in Newcastle (Central Station (directly linked to Newcastle National Rail station), Monument, Haymarket, St. James are deep and Jesmond/Manors are at the edges of the deep tunnel sections) but also Gateshead. Also the T&W Metro Electrification is DC, albeit 1500V with overhead equipment.

Also, the T&W Metro has Indusi-style train protection in place.

This is in a way no great surprise as the T&W Metro is an absolutely textbook German U-Bahn. It looks like one and it operates like one. If you reliveried the trains and changed the station names, someone from Hamburg would be very familiar with it.

Merseyrail by contrast is much more like an S-Bahn - heavy rail, lower frequencies, core section, longer trains etc.

 

[AutoKratz]

Does the Metro use a yellow signal if required immediately before a station, even if the line is clear beyond the station? Only saying because it is possible for passengers to see out of the front and I think I spotted something like that once.

Yes. Because the signals are 2 aspect there are signals which are only capable of showing a red or yellow. So you may see a yellow signal even when the line ahead is clear and the next signal is at green.

This is in a way no great surprise as the T&W Metro is an absolutely textbook German U-Bahn. It looks like one and it operates like one. If you reliveried the trains and changed the station names, someone from Hamburg would be very familiar with it.

Merseyrail by contrast is much more like an S-Bahn - heavy rail, lower frequencies, core section, longer trains etc.

The original idea of the TW Metro in the late 70s was that it was a sort of "pre-metro" rather than a fully fledged underground. The PTE saw it as a hybrid between an underground and a tram. It was expected that when the finances would allow, the tunnel from St. James would be extended and the Metrocars would emerge at street level and travel down the West End of Newcastle to Denton Burn. Of course this never happened. This is why the Metrocars were designed the way they were as they could be used as a high-floor tram on-street when the time came. They were even originally called "Supertrams". 40 years on this original vision never materialised and in reality, the Metro today is certainly a textbook German U-Bahn.

There are two New Scientist articles from the 70s which detail what the original TW Metro vision was which are a fairly interesting 5 minute read.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

 

[jamesst]

I believe for TPE and GC - They've had to do a course to cover some rules to get up to the required level.
Ive heard they dont do full rules as a Qualified driver and also do not posses a European train drivers licence.

So why not make them established in order to apply for respective TOCs so they can apply to the likes of LNER or XC without the restrictions of being labled a Metro driver

Is this same format for MerseyRail

Merseyrail drivers already do full rules exams so have no such restrictions if applying for other TOCs

 

[Bletchleyite]

There are two New Scientist articles from the 70s which detail what the original TW Metro vision was which are a fairly interesting 5 minute read.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Cheers for those, an interesting (short) read. I wonder had Merseyrail been conceived just a few years later if it would have followed a similar path? After all, the Metro, Merseyrail and Metrolink all came from similar origins (old life-expired railways in cities with a significant poorly-fulfilled requirement) and as such do fulfil a similar transport need.

 

[edwin_m]

Cheers for those, an interesting (short) read. I wonder had Merseyrail been conceived just a few years later if it would have followed a similar path? After all, the Metro, Merseyrail and Metrolink all came from similar origins (old life-expired railways in cities with a significant poorly-fulfilled requirement) and as such do fulfil a similar transport need.

Contemporary with Metro and Merseyrail, Manchester was going to get the Picc-Vic tunnel which would have created a more Merseyrail-like network. But the funding was pulled and Manchester's local railway stagnated for another 15 years until some were converted to Metrolink with cheaper street running instead of a tunnel. TfGM's long term planners are now looking at tunnel options for central Manchester.

Picc-Vic was apparently to have stayed part of BR rather than being split off like Metro, but I think would have been less segregated from other train services than Merseyrail and Metro. So I've yet to see any logic behind why Metro was split off from BR and Merseyrail wasn't.

 

[Gareth]

I don't think it was all that clear how segregated Merseyrail was going to be. The Edge Hill spur plan involved trains running on the Chat Moss and CLC. I've never seen any suggestion that they were considering four-tracking the route, or removing mainline services, so were likely envisioned to be mixing with general traffic.

 

[plugwash]

Nexus metro, merseyrail and london underground all have places where they share tracks with regular rail services. I think the DLR and the Glasgow subway are the only ones that are completely segregated from both road and rail.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

Nexus metro, merseyrail and london underground all have places where they share tracks with regular rail services. I think the DLR and the Glasgow subway are the only ones that are completely segregated from both road and rail.

I may be wrong, but I thought the DLR did have a connection with NR near Tower Gateway/Limehouse?

 

[yorkie]

I may be wrong, but I thought the DLR did have a connection with NR near Tower Gateway/Limehouse?

Do you have any evidence of this? Also what do you mean by "did"?

 

[Djgr]

Contemporary with Metro and Merseyrail, Manchester was going to get the Picc-Vic tunnel which would have created a more Merseyrail-like network. But the funding was pulled and Manchester's local railway stagnated for another 15 years until some were converted to Metrolink with cheaper street running instead of a tunnel. TfGM's long term planners are now looking at tunnel options for central Manchester.

Picc-Vic was apparently to have stayed part of BR rather than being split off like Metro, but I think would have been less segregated from other train services than Merseyrail and Metro. So I've yet to see any logic behind why Metro was split off from BR and Merseyrail wasn't.

Is it not simply that Tyne and Wear Metro was a few years later than Merseyrail when the PTEs had gained more strength and confidence to act independently?