NHS Coronavirus tracking app

[Bletchleyite]

Exactly. People didn't self isolate in those few weeks before the lockdown despite having symptoms. There've been people admitting they went to Cheltenham Races and that Liverpool football match with symptoms. Everyone thinks they know best when it suits them.

This is why I think quarantine needs to be in Government facilities. They needn't be like prisons, they could requisition high quality hotels for it.

 

[6862]

Exactly. People didn't self isolate in those few weeks before the lockdown despite having symptoms. There've been people admitting they went to Cheltenham Races and that Liverpool football match with symptoms. Everyone thinks they know best when it suits them.

But perhaps the threat of another lockdown might make people take self isolating more seriously this time? It really feels like being back at school, being threatened with a whole class detention because one idiot messes around!

 

[underbank]

But perhaps the threat of another lockdown might make people take self isolating more seriously this time? It really feels like being back at school, being threatened with a whole class detention because one idiot messes around!

All the people breaking the current lockdown without valid reasons, won't be any more compliant with self isolation to avoid the next will they?

 

[6862]

All the people breaking the current lockdown without valid reasons, won't be any more compliant with self isolation to avoid the next will they?

You may well be right. And so as always seemed to happen in those school situations, everyone will be punished.

 

[Bletchleyite]

But perhaps the threat of another lockdown might make people take self isolating more seriously this time? It really feels like being back at school, being threatened with a whole class detention because one idiot messes around!

That is actually how it felt at the start. "Right, you lot, I asked you not to go to the pub, but you still did, so you're grounded!"

 

[matt_world2004]

Bluetooth can also offer false positives I can detect my neighbours Bluetooth devices from my phone but I have not been in contact with them close enough to warrant isolating even if they do have it . Also say you work in an area that encounters a lot of people your going to be getting positives every few days . What do you do self isolate each time?

 

[Bantamzen]

Bluetooth can also offer false positives I can detect my neighbours Bluetooth devices from my phone but I have not been in contact with them close enough to warrant isolating even if they do have it . Also say you work in an area that encounters a lot of people your going to be getting positives every few days . What do you do self isolate each time?

There's no suggestion yet that a potential positive will require automatic isolation.

 

[Steveoh]

It would also require you to take your device with you everytime you go out. This is something I don't do when going for a jog for example. It won't be foolproof.

 

[Bantamzen]

It would also require you to take your device with you everytime you go out. This is something I don't do when going for a jog for example. It won't be foolproof.

You are unlikely going to be around people for anything less than the time it takes to pass them though. These apps are designed to record much longer interactions.

 

[Steveoh]

You are unlikely going to be around people for anything less than the time it takes to pass them though. These apps are designed to record much longer interactions.

In that scenario yes, but I might stop and have a socially distanced chat with someone. The general point is I don't take my phone with me everytime I leave the house or I forget it. I wouldn't normally take it with me when popping down to the local shop. I'm just making the point that having the app and using it on your phone isn't bulletproof and citing an example. There will be gaps and this is just another one of those gaps. My phone could run out of battery.

I will probably download it, I will attempt to take my phone with me whereever I go. I might forget it once or twice. I might come into contact with someone during that time etc.

On the whole even with exceptions it ought to reduce R, but it will by no means be anywhere near 100% accurrate.

 

[scotrail158713]

Personally, I have no concerns about downloading and using it, if it lets us get back to work sooner! My only concern is the risk of false positives (through a wall etc). I don't care if the government are spying on me - I have nothing to hide!

I’m the same - if it helps us to return to “normal” life (whatever that may be) then I’m all for it. And the government can track me if they want, but it would make for some dull viewing.

 

[Bantamzen]

In that scenario yes, but I might stop and have a socially distanced chat with someone. The general point is I don't take my phone with me everytime I leave the house or I forget it. I wouldn't normally take it with me when popping down to the local shop. I'm just making the point that having the app and using it on your phone isn't bulletproof and citing an example. There will be gaps and this is just another one of those gaps. My phone could run out of battery.

I will probably download it, I will attempt to take my phone with me whereever I go. I might forget it once or twice. I might come into contact with someone during that time etc.

On the whole even with exceptions it ought to reduce R, but it will by no means be anywhere near 100% accurrate.

In reality any app will be little more than advisory, even though NHSX initially rejected the Google-Apple API because they thought that could only ever advisory at best & theirs could be more than that. The idea is that it will help inform people if they need to monitor their own symptoms, and potentially seek testing.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I’m the same - if it helps us to return to “normal” life (whatever that may be) then I’m all for it. And the government can track me if they want, but it would make for some dull viewing.

Ah but suppose that government data gets into the wrong hands? Supoosing you start getting bombarded by ads from companies whose shops the app has tracked you as being in? Suppose opening up your phone to this app allows criminals to hack into your personal and financial records? Suppose a serious crime is committed and the police arrest you because the app shows you were in the area when it was committed?

Obviously all this is hypothetical and possibly a little paranoid but once you allow third parties open access to your phone you don't know what infomation is held about you, who has access to it or what they can use it for.

 

[scotrail158713]

Suppose a serious crime is committed and the police arrest you because the app shows you were in the area when it was committed?

On the flip side of that there’s a possible positive. The police are able to know who was in the area at the time, so have possible witnesses to help solve the crime.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There's no suggestion yet that a potential positive will require automatic isolation.

What would be good is if a potential positive automatically leads to a test.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Ah but suppose that government data gets into the wrong hands? Supoosing you start getting bombarded by ads from companies whose shops the app has tracked you as being in?

That's already happening. Google do it with their tracking data.

It's really not the NHS's core business to be selling advertising. I'd trust them far more than Google.

 

[underbank]

You may well be right. And so as always seemed to happen in those school situations, everyone will be punished.

But we need to challenge this mentality/attitude of "punishment". Self isolation, social distancing, washing hands, wearing masks, etc isn't punishment - it's helping to stop the spread of Covid, hence saving lives.

 

[Bantamzen]

What would be good is if a potential positive automatically leads to a test.

If the government gets it right, a positive ought to allow a booking of a priority test via the app. If.....

 

[Bletchleyite]

If the government gets it right, a positive ought to allow a booking of a priority test via the app. If.....

The concept is track and test, so hopefully so. Ideally if we can get capacity up the app would integrate that, so it says "please go home and stay home, tap this button for a test to be sent by post, tap this button to get where to go for a test in person, please consider driving to a site if you can for a quicker result".

For things like neighbours, this can be managed by questions I suppose on signing up - "do you often chat to your neighbours in person?" If you put "no" they could potentially be excluded. Bluetooth range is poor so at most it's going to pick up the adjacent homes. It might also be possible to use the signal strength to rule out a weak Bluetooth signal as you'd get through a brick wall; flats may be more of an issue but there's more chance you might be infected off stair-rails etc in a block of flats, so that might actually be worth alerting.

 

[londiscape]

That's already happening. Google do it with their tracking data.

It's really not the NHS's core business to be selling advertising. I'd trust them far more than Google.

I never thought I'd be saying I'd trust Google, but they've open-sourced their APIs and proven at least a base level of trustworthiness for the Apple-Google framework.

As I posted upthread, the NHS isn't selling advertising, but it's Faculty AI and Palantir that are underlying it that we have to be worried about. The fact that NHS has decided not to go with Apple-Google framework has sinister undertones of both private corporate and governmental surveillance.

 

[6862]

But we need to challenge this mentality/attitude of "punishment". Self isolation, social distancing, washing hands, wearing masks, etc isn't punishment - it's helping to stop the spread of Covid, hence saving lives.

Those measures you mention are not 'punishment', but another 2-3 month lockdown this autumn/winter (which seems entirely possible given that lockdown seems to be the preferred response to this virus) would, in my opinion, certainly feel like punishment.

 

[Huntergreed]

Those measures you mention are not 'punishment', but another 2-3 month lockdown this autumn/winter (which seems entirely possible given that lockdown seems to be the preferred response to this virus) would, in my opinion, certainly feel like punishment.

Judging by the fact the government keep emphasising that one of their five tests to decide whether to lift restrictions is that there is 'no risk of a second peak', I think it is more likely that tougher restrictions will remain in place for a little longer now, and then when cases get really low they can perhaps consider lifting more to prevent another lockdown later in the year which, judging by the economic damage caused by this one, would be economic suicide on their behalf.

 

[Bantamzen]

The concept is track and test, so hopefully so. Ideally if we can get capacity up the app would integrate that, so it says "please go home and stay home, tap this button for a test to be sent by post, tap this button to get where to go for a test in person, please consider driving to a site if you can for a quicker result".

For things like neighbours, this can be managed by questions I suppose on signing up - "do you often chat to your neighbours in person?" If you put "no" they could potentially be excluded. Bluetooth range is poor so at most it's going to pick up the adjacent homes. It might also be possible to use the signal strength to rule out a weak Bluetooth signal as you'd get through a brick wall; flats may be more of an issue but there's more chance you might be infected off stair-rails etc in a block of flats, so that might actually be worth alerting.

Reading around various articles on the subject it sounding like the first release will be a fairly simple, Bluetooth only app which will log all other enabled devices in range (and presumably after a set period of time) and load up anonymised IDs to the DB. If an alert is triggered, it has the potential to direct the person to book a test, and will reply on them keeping their status up to date. Future versions may offer the users the option to also provide location data if they so wish, but this will be an opt-in rather than opt-out.

In terms of neighbours, there is always going to be the risk that the app will log multiple contacts even though the risk may be very small. Using signal strength may be one way to mitigate for this, I've never really thought about this ever being needed as a function but there are some signal metre apps out there so I may have a play with one & my wireless headphones to see just how far signals can get through the various walls at home. It'll keep me occupied for a bit at least....

 

[joncombe]

My fear is this won't be compulsory, but will effectively become so.

Want to enter a shopping centre? No app showing "clear" status, no entry.
Likewise for getting on a train, tube, bus, flight, theatre, concert, sporting event, cinema, pub, restuarant, cafe, tourist attraction, etc. No app showing "clear" status, then no entry. So in effect if you don't want to live the rest of your life in near isolation you're going to have to get (and use) the app.

Also bluetooth drains the battery much more quickly so you run the risk the battery has run out when you need to make a phone call. Not to mention having to charge more frequently, so increasing electricity costs.

 

[Bantamzen]

My fear is this won't be compulsory, but will effectively become so.

Want to enter a shopping centre? No app showing "clear" status, no entry.
Likewise for getting on a train, tube, bus, flight, theatre, concert, sporting event, cinema, pub, restuarant, cafe, tourist attraction, etc. No app showing "clear" status, then no entry. So in effect if you don't want to live the rest of your life in near isolation you're going to have to get (and use) the app.

Also bluetooth drains the battery much more quickly so you run the risk the battery has run out when you need to make a phone call. Not to mention having to charge more frequently, so increasing electricity costs.

This won't become compulsory, the app will not show a "clear" or "not clear" status. It will simply send messages to those people that may have come into contact with people that have subsequently reported symptoms or tested positive, and have used the app to declare this.

 

[Pete_uk]

I wont download it because:
1, bluetooth drains the battery and I'm OCD about it going under 80%;
2, do I trust the government with data? No.

 

[brad465]

I don't think this has been mentioned on here yet, but how would an app like this work on the Underground and other areas underground, that will have no signal but large crowds that can easily help spread the virus?

 

[Qwerty133]

I don't think this has been mentioned on here yet, but how would an app like this work on the Underground and other areas underground, that will have no signal but large crowds that can easily help spread the virus?

No reason why it shouldn't work on the underground as it doesn't require any kind of external signal other than what it transmitted by the phones themselves. Usually Bluetooth is limited to 7 connections at one time however (and some of us regularly have 2 or 3 between our personal tech) so it may be problematic in that extent depending on the exact way in which it is enabled (my guess would be scanning for a list of devices every 5 minutes or so and recognising where the same device was found on consecutive occasions in order to prevent the need for actual connections which would allow for a greater number of devices to be in contact).