NI Thumpers

Discussion in 'International Transport' started by yorkie, 6 Apr 2011.

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  1. 102 fan

    102 fan Member

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    It's a pity there wasn't a Titanic connection - then there would be no problem in saving one! Of all the ships H&W built, that one is to be remembered - for all the wrong reasons.

    But like everything else here, unless it's the Titanic or involved in the political history, it's forgotten about.
     
  2. 89-763-733

    89-763-733 Member

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    There were only 4 DEMU in traffic yesterday

    454 455 458 459

    and of those only 455 was out all day.

    The Portrush branch is currently a CAF and it is uncertain if a 450 will return there after 452 failed on the branch on Wednesday and had to be towed to Belfast by 458

    There is some talk of a new sandite train for 2012 formed of 2 450 power cars and a trailer. Ideally translink would like to buy an MPV for sandite and other purposes but this has not been approved so far
     
  3. K9-70

    K9-70 Member

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    It's more likely that the MRSI don't have the resources or don't want to incur the cost of having to hire a low loader to transport them to their chosen destination, wherever that may be.

    Sorry, no photos of the 80's being transported through the streets of Belfast on their way to be scrapped at Clearways.

    But MAR-TRAIN have the capabillity to transport them to or from any destination within Ireland to the Uk/Europe. (see photos attached)
    If not, then how did NIR 8099 end up at the ELR on the back of a low loader.

    3519 being deliveried to York Rd 09-05-2005
    4001 being deliveried to York Rd 14-03-2011
     

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    Last edited: 29 Oct 2011
  4. GM078

    GM078 Member

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    With all due respect, the RPSI doesn't have to do anything. They are a completely voluntary group run by volunteers, they are under no obligation to preserve anything. They don't have a "responsibility" to preserve an 80 class anymore than posters on this forum do. The same goes for the MRSI (and the ITG, DCDR, indeed any preservation group). If people really want something preserved then why not organise a group themselves? This is how the RPSI came to have its GM diesels, though as discussed before, an 80 class is probably less practical than the GMs are.
     
  5. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    This is a bit like people saying "if you don't like the Labour Party or the Tories, why don't you set up your own party?". In other words, technically correct, but in practical terms totally meaningless.
     
  6. GM078

    GM078 Member

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    Kind of reminds me of the PDs being set up by dissatisfied Fianna Fáil people in the 1980s! Seriously though, if the existing preservation groups are not catering for them, then why not? I mean, at the end of the day a voluntary organisation is but a voluntary organisation, you can't really expect it to do things. There's no law saying that you can't set up your own organisation, there seems to be people interested in preserving an 80, so, why not?
     
  7. 102 fan

    102 fan Member

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    The title Railway preservation society of Ireland is bit misleading then.
    I left all the societies, they were happy to recieve my money, but I had no actual say in what happened, or what was obtained.
     
  8. I T S

    I T S Member

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    Sorry there, 459 was out all day on Saturday too with the 1049,1249,1449 Carricks etc
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    Then, GM078, can you tell me what the Railway PRESERVATION society of Ireland actually preserve? Isn't preservation meant to be all kinds of rolling stock? Then again, you get steam cranks wrapped up in their own wee world and that blows everything else out. Whitehead is full of junk to be polite. All of that stuff at the larne end is just rotting and of no use to anyone, not even the homeless. with regards GMs, B142, i dont think will ever see the mainline again. an 80 class could easily see the mainline if preserved at whitehead as it would have already been gauged, passed etc.

    You say about people setting up their own groups and getting one? Where do you think people would put it? Don't get smart. Your attitude basically shows that the RPSI don't care and never have nor will. They're just interested in their little steam engines and nothing else.

    The RPSI need to sort themselves out with the way they run things with tickets and operational side of things let alone preserving an 80 class so best of not going there.

    Rant over!
     
  9. 102 fan

    102 fan Member

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    I remember being told to start my own railway when there was talk of restoring 102. That sort of attitude didn't endear me towards Irish preservation. The whole 102 saga was what made me leave most preservation societies.
     
  10. I T S

    I T S Member

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    and look who has 102.... Enough said
     
  11. GM078

    GM078 Member

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    It's a preservation society yes, a voluntary run preservation society, it's not as if it's a government run museum; it has no obligation/duty to preserve anything. All the volunteers could quit in the morning if they wanted to, what would you do then? No more loco hauled railtours in Ireland that's for sure. Some people seem to speak of the RPSI as if it was some vast state organisation with infinite resources, it's far from it. Maybe people just don't understand. Now, it might well be argued that the respective governments of Northern Ireland and Ireland should have done more in terms of developing/funding transport heritage, for it is sadly neglected compared to other areas of heritage... But just because the RPSI is one of the few Irish rail preservation groups doesn't automatically mean that it must preserve a particular item.

    What have the RPSI preserved? Well, off the top of my head, and this is by no means exhaustive, an S class, two J15s, a WT, a Q, a K2, a SLNCR Tank, a Guinness 0-4-0ST, an Avonside Dock shunter, two (so far) 141s, with a 121 on the way, a Hunslet, a CSÉ Ruston, an Irish Shell Planet, a GNR(I) Diner, a UTA Diner, two CIÉ Diners, Park Royals, Laminates, various NCC carriages, a GNR(B) Brake 3rd, 10 Cravens, a Dutch Van, 2 BR Vans, 2 mkIIds, various NIR mkIIs, a Bredin coach, various GSWR coaches, a MGWR six wheeler, a GNR(I) Brakevan, various goods wagons...

    Sadly, many types of Irish rolling stock did not survive, most of the CIÉ steam classes, the Mirelees shunters, many carriage types (like 1145 and 1146, to name but one unique type now gone forever), cement wagons, MPDs, etc, etc. The list goes on and on. But is it the fault of the RPSI, the ITG, DCDR,(or,going back further, Westrail and the GSRPS) etc that these are now vanished? Certainly not, I'm grateful for what has been preserved.

    Yes, there probably is a lot of stuff at Whitehead (though in fairness less so at Mullingar and Inchicore) that lies out of use, much of which was acquired in the early days of the RPSI, but obviously it takes a more cautious approach to acquisition these days, as do many such groups. Incidentally I recall a few years ago the issue of 80 class preservation was raised in the ITG newsletter, lack of storage space was cited as a reason against them acquiring one.

    As for an 80 class on the mainline, well, would you really be able to fill several trips a year - NB: people chasing a run with camera doesn't count as support. I'd love to see a maroon and blue set running about the system, but one has to be realistic here.

    I'm not getting smart, I just don't understand why people expect a voluntary organisation to preserve this, that and the other. They seem to have little concept of voluntary organisations. All groups start from little, the group would probably have to lease/buy a site, every preservation group in the world started from nothing, where there's a will and all that. My attitude is based on experience, I'm a realist first. Obviously I'm just speaking from the perspective of an individual volunteer, any views expressed are my own and not an official statement on the RPSI's behalf.

    Just curious, but what is wrong with the ticketing, never heard a complaint about that particular aspect before...

    I wonder do any of the British voluntary societies get such demands/lambastings...
     
  12. I T S

    I T S Member

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    Tickets -
    Dublin Santa tickets on sale since last year practically and throughout this year and Sold out before end of September, meanwhile the northern operations put their tickets on sale 4weeks before the train runs. Bad management in my eyes

    British Voluntary ? No they use their common sense and have people with a bit of a brain who preserve a bit of everything of interest. For example, East lancs have Steam (Black fives etc) and they also preserve diesel locos and units.

    It seems Irish voluntary organisations either don't understand or don't care simply. Sad to see but lets hope they see the light some day. After all, the RPSI got the NIR Mk2's and what use did they become? Rotted for years in their sidings at whitehead then got scrapped.

    An 80 class has served NIR for 35 years and have made NIR to what it is now. I think and along with others, it would only be right to preserve a 2 or 3 car unit. The
     
  13. GM078

    GM078 Member

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    The East Lancs can, and do, run very successful diesel galas. Sadly the market for that is not there in Ireland.

    The East Lancs also have various groups on the railway looking after the diesels, which is why forming a dedicated 80 class group might be a good idea. Though fair enough, there is the question of where one might be run, considering that mainline running would be extremely unlikely to be viable in terms of cost covering (one tour a year wouldn't near suffice, even if you could fill it). Such things apply all rolling stock, think of how RPSI locos like 27 or carriages like 813 have not run on the mainline in preservation, but ones like 171 or 1463 have...

    There's no denying that an 80 class is worthy of preservation, but the means by which that might be achieved is another issue... But as I said, if one isn't that's not the fault of any of the existing organisations. Perhaps a group to investigate the possible purchase, storage, etc, of a unit, although at this stage it may be too late.

    Look at how people in Britain are setting up groups like the one aimed towards the eventual preservation of a Pacer (did I see a class 59 group mentioned somewhere?), rather than insist that such and such a group preserve one. They have the right approach me thinks.
     
  14. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    While I agree that the RPSI is a voluntary organisation that can do what it wants (and yes, this would extend to petulantly throwing its toys out of the pram in the highly unlikely event that that is what it wished to do), I still don't think it has done enough in this regard, and would agree with I T S that this is because fundamentally, deep down, because it doesn't care about diesel traction. Of course this is its right as an independent body, but if 'railway preservation' is to mean anything long term this is a very short sighted view.

    As a society it seems OK about diesel preservation if the locos are saved by someone else and donated. What should (still could I guess) have been done here is make a strong case to the NI govt that the 80 Class is actually a very important piece of [Northern] Irish transport history and get them to fund it. In this context a 2-car set is hardly a lot of money. It was the train that carried NIR through the Troubles and out the other side to the more developed railway of today. Maybe this was attempted, but given the obvious lack of interest in diesels, would the NI Govt really have been convinced of the seriousness of the proposal?

    I am a member of the Pacer Preservation Society you mention, but the simple fact is that the scene here is so very many times bigger than in Ireland that the RPSI by virtue of being first on the scene is so well established that like it or not people WILL look to it to lead in the field of preservation. If the numbers of enthusiasts in Ireland were split across a similar number of preservation societies as exist in GB then they would have about 3 members each! If Irish preservation is to remain Irish and not become dependent on GB support for every project (welcome though that support must be), the Strength In Numbers argument must make a lot of sense, and this means the RPSI AFAICS. The PPS alone will probably have almost as many members as the RPSI by the time Pacers are withdrawn and we get our hands on one.
     
    Last edited: 31 Oct 2011
  15. I T S

    I T S Member

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    Well said 4SKRT. It's simple "Railway Preservation"..... They're not a preservation society in anyway in my eyes.
     
  16. 89-763-733

    89-763-733 Member

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    Neither of those coaches had a chance at preservation. 1145 was destroyed in the Buttevant accident and 1146 by a firebomb at Botanic in 1978

    The RPSI give me the impression of being anti diesel at times while at others trying to make money from them.

    Years ago they had the chance to preserve an MED set and did not take it and the last MPD car sat in their yard for 26 years before being scrapped without being offered to any other body.

    There have been several attempts to get an 80 class preservation group organised and none have got very far.

    The only realistic place it could go would be Downpatrick and I seriously doubt they want it. Covered accomodation is essential and even when their new shed is complete I think all the space is already spoken for
     
  17. I T S

    I T S Member

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    Update on 450 Railtour -

    Translink have been approached by an group of enthusiasts to ask about the possibilities of running a 450 railtour.

    In return Translink have made the following statements :

    It would not be normal practice to charter trains to individuals and we would normally only accommodate societies or recognised organisations

    The Antrim branch is not the recognised route and a significant cost would be incurred for additional staffing. (if permitted to operate over the route by the infrastructure dept.)

    The train is not permitted to operate to Dundalk.

    We would require at least 6 weeks’ notice (any date would be subject to any other specials operating on the same day e.g. RPSI)



    Basically, they are showing little interest of co-operating to run such a tour.

    With regards to all of the points above, my opinion stands as :

    1. Why does it matter who is chartering a train? A charter is a charter
    2. Antrim Branch requires an Inspector & Pilotman to run over this branch. This year, this line has seen trains on 8 different days due to various reasons (Diversons,Staff Training etc)
    3. Dundalk - Understandable with the railway we have now but still could be done in theory.
    4. Running same day as RPSI, GAA, Rugby? How many charters do we have going to Penzance in June for mazey day amongst those with service trains? And lets face it Penzance is quite cramped but NR & FGW still manage to run their services and charters.
     
    Last edited: 9 Nov 2011
  18. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Dundalk not a great loss really TBH, as long as a tour could get to Newry. Any tour will need to have some decent mileage if it is to gain the interest of many cranks from over here. Belfast > Newry > Bangor > Belfast or some such won't be enough IMHO. If no Dundalk and no Crumlin then Portrush at least is a must.
     
  19. Lad Brookes

    Lad Brookes Member

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    Or Londonderry- though that would be amusing- as I'd love that, whereas I was always filled with dread when I arrived at GVS or Central to change off the Bangor line and saw a 450 (Cattle Class as I used to call them) rather than an 80 there to thump me off through Downhill!
     
  20. GM078

    GM078 Member

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    Can't imagine the loss of the Dundalk leg would affect numbers that much (though I suppose some facility to connect to the Beller would be useful for passengers based in the Republic). The Derry option might be interesting, that way it wouldn't be a carbon copy of the 80 class tour. Fair play to those taking the initiative to try organise such a tour.
     
  21. I T S

    I T S Member

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    Shall we just say, the 450s will NOT go away without a tour. Watch this space
     
    Last edited: 9 Nov 2011
  22. killucan2

    killucan2 Member

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    Should start thinking about a fairwell tour to irishrail 2700 unit's as there next to go.
     
  23. I T S

    I T S Member

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    I know a good name for it too Killucan 2 -

    The Empty Diesel
     
  24. GM078

    GM078 Member

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    I suppose a 2700 tour would have greater route availability than a 450 one...

    Probably still issues with driver knowledge though... 2700 to Sligo anyone? :roll:
     
  25. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Rather than a tour when the 2700s start to go you'd probably get more revenue by letting cranks pay for 5 minutes each with the cutter's torch on the first one to be scrapped!
     
  26. jopsuk

    jopsuk Veteran Member

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    Seriously? They're from the late nineties and being refurbished, they surely aren't going anywhere any time soon?
     
  27. I T S

    I T S Member

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    Not Really an issue considering 2700s go to Drogheda on a regular basis. All Cork,Ballina,Athlone,Waterford,Limerick,Galway,Tralee,Inchicore & Connolly men still sign for 2700s to my knowledge.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    It has been confirmed that the Portrush branch 450 diagram will now be covered by a C3k. The 450 will not return to the branch.
     
  28. 4SRKT

    4SRKT Established Member

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    Time for an avatar change. 452 when brand new shot near Eden heading towards Whitehead in happier times in Northern Ireland (well, on the railways at least.... ;)). Nobody stopping anyone standing on the embankment to take photos like this, indeed nobody minding people using the PW all the way from Eden to Barn as a footpath!

    Will revert to the 70 class when the 450s have all gone :(
     
  29. killucan2

    killucan2 Member

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    All the 27's are ment to be parked up in Dundalk before christmas joining the mk3 there.
     
  30. I T S

    I T S Member

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    I dont know who told you that but I very much doubt it
     
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