Nightstar Power Question

[NightStar]

Good Evening! I am just wondering if anyone remembers anything about the Nightstar train, and the problems with the Belgium Railway system I think it was not having a loco that could both pull and provide EPS? My question is this. I saw someone on the www.UKTrainsim.com site mention one time that there was considerations into converting redundant British diesels into power cars for the Belgium system at the time? I conclude that the Class 31 would have been the most likely candidate for this use? Does anyone else have any information or opinions?


What was the diesel power for France, Germany, Belgium?

Dale Stewart, before he passed had made mention of a Class 73 Generator van for the Nightstar when it was to operate over third rail districts or the Southern District? Would this have been a unit with the cab controls removed and the windows plated over? Dale was the project manager for the Nightstar and a regular on the UKTrainsim forums.

Also I understand that when the Tunnel was being built that Eurostar had further use for the locos hauling the spoil trains? Were hese units slated for conversions for passenger service like the Class 37/6 lokies? If so why did it not come about?

I am slowly collecting OO scale models of the rollingstock of the Channel Tunnel, and am interested in scratch building what I cannot find ready made.

Robert

 

[driver9000]

The generator vans were redundant mk3 sleeper cars and the plan was to haul the trains in the UK with the class 37s operated by EPS. There were class 73s under EPS that were modified with the autocoupler fittings but I'm not sure if these were destined to haul the Nightstar trains rather to rescue failed 373s, I always thought the 92s would haul them right through to the continent.

 

[O L Leigh]

I believe the idea was to sandwich the "jenny" car between a pair of Cl37s for haulage off the wires and the formation would then be handed over to a Cl92. While Mk3 sleepers had been suggested for this purpose I don't believe any final decision had been reached before the Nightstar service was shelved.

Quite what our continental neighbours intended I just couldn't speculate. I guess they would simply have hooked on a conventional electric loco. I'm sure any incompatibilities with regard to the ETS would have been considered and I'm sure the Nightstar stock could have been configured to ensure compatibility across it's entire range of working. The only reason why a "jenny" car was needed this side of the Channel was because the Cl37s earmarked for the service couldn't provide ETS.

The Cl73s had never been intended for Nightstar use but as Thunderbirds for the Eurostar while they operated on the conventional domestic network. I don't believe they were ever used in anger in this role, which is probably a good thing given that they could barely pull the skin off a custard never mind a loaded Eurostar set and were vulnerable to being gapped (hence the use of a GLV on GatEx services).

O L Leigh

 

[driver9000]

The reason I mention former sleeper cars is because some were converted to generator van and liveried in EPS grey apparently for use on Nightstar.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/chris_adams/6326432806/

(Not my photograph)

 

[O L Leigh]

Fair enough. I was left with the impression from the sources I'd read that none were ever converted because the construction and delivery of the Nightstar coaches was slow and there were some doubts over the service right from the very start. But there we are. Photographic evidence of the fact.

O L Leigh

 

[driver9000]

I don't think they ever turned a wheel with EPS and were dumped in works yards soon after conversion. Such a waste of a project, at least the Nightstar coaches have seen revenue earning use albeit not on the continent they were intended for.

 

[O L Leigh]

Yup. But the entire fleet was sold for approximately a quarter of it's market value, so hardly a resounding success.

O L Leigh

 

[NightStar]

Here is one of the postings made at www.Uktrainsim.com by the person who was in charge of the Nightstock. This was the information that partly got me thinking about the power problems with these cars.

Now therein lies a long tale! The trains were due to be hauled by Class 92's on British soil but it was quite complicated. The Swansea / Plymouth Waterloo trains were due to have the wierd 37 + Gen Van + 37 formation into Waterloo to swap for the Class 92 forward to Dollands Moor. However, the 92 would have overloaded the third rail hauling the train and running the services on board, so a Class 73 generator vehicle was planned, which would go on the rear and drop off at Dollands Moor, to be replaced by a 2nd 92 to go through the tunnel to Calais Ville Yard. There, both 92's would be replaced by an SNCF 26xxx electric to Bruxelles where an SNCB 13xx electric would go forward to either Roosendaal or Aachen. Yet another change at Aachen would see the 103xxx work forward to Koln / Dortmund. But, the 13xx and 103xxx were not compatible with the stock services, so it was planned for a Dutch 18xx loco to work to Amsterdam and on the German ones, a 232xxx diesel from DB to act as assisting Gen loco (for which I spent a week in East Germany photographing and trialling the couplings!). Oh and at Rugby, the Manchester section was due to have a 90 and a 90 was also booked for the ecs from Glasgow central to Polmadie for servicing. We spent weeks at Helemmes depot, Lille, with a set of Nightstar coaches and various loco's being dragged in, to try out all the permutations (not the 90/92/37 - they were done at North Pole) and we spent many nights working overnight from Washwood Heath Sidings to the Lichfield line for testing during the night. We also did some testing at Aachen. The responsibility for how the loco's would work the train was mine and it was a nightmare operation and fortunately never taken on or it would have been a disaster, operationally... Oh for a loco capable of working the train throughout!
Dale / BasilDD


original post here http://forums.uktrainsim.com/viewtopic.php?f=238&t=17403&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=nightstar&start=15



Robert
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Now as for the SNCB portion of the consist. The SNCB at the time claimed not to have anything capable of pulling the stock and providing the EPS for the cars. This is were the idea to modify older British diesels and send them to the SNCB came into the whole picture.

Robert
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Just one more thought for tonight? How suitable would the class 20 be for conversion into a generator van for use on the SNCB portion of the Nightstar trip?

Robert

 

[Schnellzug]

The question really should be, whose idea was all this? Who paid for it all? Whoever thought that this could remotely be commercially viable? Was it the Government that commissioned it and paid for it? Or was it EPS's idea, and if so where did they get the money from? And whose decision was it to scrap the whole idea? EPS or the Government?

 

[hairyhandedfool]

There were five sleepers converted, I'm not sure where four of them have gone (atleast one was at Old Oak Common), but a few weeks back one was at Doncaster and just about viewable from the platforms.

 

[Schnellzug]

I wonder if they might have been useful for charter operators, or maybe they were too over-specified and would have been too expensive for that.

 

[DXMachina]

Shame Chiltern didn't think to use them at overnight layover stops to power train ETH instead of converting their DVTs to generator vans

 

[HSTEd]

The question really should be, whose idea was all this? Who paid for it all? Whoever thought that this could remotely be commercially viable? Was it the Government that commissioned it and paid for it? Or was it EPS's idea, and if so where did they get the money from? And whose decision was it to scrap the whole idea? EPS or the Government?

This was all part of the political deal made to get the tunnel built, along with Regional Eurostar.

Of course these things might have made reasonable amounts of money if it hadn't be for Stelios Haji-Ioannou and friends.

 

[Hydro]

Shame Chiltern didn't think to use them at overnight layover stops to power train ETH instead of converting their DVTs to generator vans

Where would you stable an additional Mk.3 coach at station stabling points? The DVT is a perfect choice to squeeze a genny into, portable power. Plus can act as a backup if the 67's ETS decides to throw it's toys out of the pram.

Also remember that Nightstar generator vans supplied ETS at Continental voltage (1500V DC) rather than UK 1000V, so additional transforming equipment would have needed to be fitted to be useful for UK stock.

 

[HSTEd]

I thought Nightstar ETS was 1500V AC.... I remember finding a pinout of the rather insane 60+ pin ETS/Control connectors somewhere on the internet.....

Microprocessors really have killed cool stuff like that, now it would be a USB cable.

 

[westcoaster]

There were five sleepers converted, I'm not sure where four of them have gone (atleast one was at Old Oak Common), but a few weeks back one was at Doncaster and just about viewable from the platforms.

Iirc they are now at long marston. 96373/2 and I assume /1 .

 

[NightStar]

60+ pin connector? Wow, That is insane.I would like to see that diagram myself? I understand that the cable size was also wrong for UK standards as well as the voltage? That is why the cars have not been used for specials as I understand it.

Robert

 

[HSTEd]

60+ pin connector? Wow, That is insane.I would like to see that diagram myself? I understand that the cable size was also wrong for UK standards as well as the voltage? That is why the cars have not been used for specials as I understand it.

Robert

Here we go

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Iirc they are now at long marston. 96373/2 and I assume /1 .

It's 96374 at Doncaster.

I thought 96371 was still at Wembley somewhere?

96372/3/5 definitely at Long Marston.

 

[jopsuk]

a bit of a digression, but how potentially difficult would it be for, say, City Night Line (DB owned), SNCF or another operator with existing international sleeper services in Europe to:
A: get their stock approved for tunnel use
B: get a "slot" in and out of St Pancras- potentially using the fright loops along HS1 if the departure time needs to be before Eurostar and Southeastern services finish?

 

[O L Leigh]

The question really should be, whose idea was all this? Who paid for it all? Whoever thought that this could remotely be commercially viable? Was it the Government that commissioned it and paid for it? Or was it EPS's idea, and if so where did they get the money from? And whose decision was it to scrap the whole idea? EPS or the Government?

The Nightstar service was conceived prior to privatisation when EPS was a sector of BR, making it just one part of the larger rail network and service in the UK. However, after privatisation EPS became a small independent operator responsible for the Eurostar service but it lacked the financial stability and resources to fund what would have been a loss-making service like Nightstar. Therefore the project was shelved and then cancelled after only a certain proportion of the rolling stock was completed.

I imagine that it's implementation would have also necessarily been linked with the Regional Eurostar service, as both would have required frontier security at locations away from London. Nightstar alone could not have justified this additional infrastructure, so both services suffered the same fate.

O L Leigh

 

[HSTEd]

a bit of a digression, but how potentially difficult would it be for, say, City Night Line (DB owned), SNCF or another operator with existing international sleeper services in Europe to:
A: get their stock approved for tunnel use
B: get a "slot" in and out of St Pancras- potentially using the fright loops along HS1 if the departure time needs to be before Eurostar and Southeastern services finish?

Well myself I would run on the Classic Lines out of Waterloo International since then you can have your trains wait in platforms all day without having to organise stabling moves or whatever.

Although that might put limits on the stock's loading gauge, Couchettes might still be practical, and its not as if any existing stock would be usable in the chunnel anyway.

Security/Passport control would be limited in cost relative to the full service at the Eurostar terminal simply because of the limited time frame of boardings.

 

[jopsuk]

Although that might put limits on the stock's loading gauge, Couchettes might still be practical, and its not as if any existing stock would be usable in the chunnel anyway.

Are you sure about that though? My point was that the newest of their stock may well be useable, or might be with minor modifications

 

[Schnellzug]

there's all sorts of (probably unnecessary) regualations about what stock to run through the Chunnel* has to have, all sorts of elabroate fire precautions and what have you (which is ironic, considering that the stock that has been involved in fires at least twice- the HGV Shuttles- seems to have no fire precaution systems at all), and a silly requirement that a train can be split in half & the rear half driven out in the other direction, all of which were just put in at the insistence of Politicians who, I expect, wanted to make things as complicated and expensive as possible, but, as I so often say, anything that was put in place by am Politician can easily be changed by another Politician, so none of those things need be an impossible obstacle.
*I'm pleased to see this word making a comeback, it ought to be used more often

 

[NightStar]

HSTEd, That connector is simply madness! There is no way this could have ever worked as it was supposedly should have? I wonder however if the Class 73 genny van would have been able to be operated as a E loco for coupling and uncoupling purposes?

Robert

 

[paul1609]

This was all part of the political deal made to get the tunnel built, along with Regional Eurostar.

Of course these things might have made reasonable amounts of money if it hadn't be for Stelios Haji-Ioannou and friends.

I doubt it. Manchester the biggest UK airport outside of London provides 750 seats a day on direct flights to Paris, the biggest destination served by Eurostar.
Two of the flights arrive before the start of the business day in Paris. If you consider the likely market penetration of rail with a journey time of around 6 hours compared to 1h 40 for a flight its difficult to see how a business case could ever be made.
Its unlikely that the West Coast market in total could have filled one north of London set at 558 seats. Given the inflexibility of 1 train per day its likely that most customers would have chosen to change in London.
The real scandal is how parliament was pressurised in to wasting millions of pounds of taxpayers money by regional interest groups.

 

[HSTEd]

I doubt it. Manchester the biggest UK airport outside of London provides 750 seats a day on direct flights to Paris, the biggest destination served by Eurostar.
Two of the flights arrive before the start of the business day in Paris. If you consider the likely market penetration of rail with a journey time of around 6 hours compared to 1h 40 for a flight its difficult to see how a business case could ever be made.
Its unlikely that the West Coast market in total could have filled one north of London set at 558 seats. Given the inflexibility of 1 train per day its likely that most customers would have chosen to change in London.
The real scandal is how parliament was pressurised in to wasting millions of pounds of taxpayers money by regional interest groups.

..... Yes, and those flights would have been out of reach of the Eurostar Target demographic if it was not for Easyjet and its ilk, and as for the state being pressured into wasting billions of pounds of taxpayers money by regional interest groups, someone should talk to the South East about why the tunnel exists in the first place, especially with its horrendously overdone specification complete with car shuttles rather than a cheaper "mousehole" proposal.

EDIT:
As for the travel time from Manchester to Paris, these days the train could do it in under 4.5-5 hours (2h15 for London-Paris and then something in the vicinity of 2h30 for a non tilting London-Manchester) with roughly 5hr15 [315 minutes] once you include the check-in.

As for a comparison the plane:
MAN-MIA 19 minutes
MAN Security/Check-in 120 minutes [according to the airport website]
MIA-CdeG flight time 105 minutes [according to flybe.com]
CdeG to the centre of Paris - 90 minutes [rough travel time on the RER]
Total: 315 minutes.

 

[paul1609]

Except that even the barmy North Of London proposals didn't think that Manchester alone could support a service it was scheduled to go via Birmingham.
Of course the NoL services were scheduled to go via The west London Line and Tonbridge as HS1 hadn't been built then
and if you wanted to resurrect the services there is now no capacity on the North London Line (and I suspect on the southern WCML) to run through to HS1.

CdeG is about 30 mins to Gare Du Nord by the way, 10 stops on RER B

 

[HSTEd]

CdeG is about 30 mins to Gare Du Nord by the way, 10 stops on RER B

Well the airport website says allow "50 minutes" and then there is all the trouble with getting out of the airport, especially if you have to wait for bags.

Ofcourse if you could make a tilting 180mph trainset (call the Japanese?) you could cut the train time down further even even with a stop to Birmingham.
Once HS2 is built (if it is built) the economics change considerably if you believe the talk of 1hr20 Manchester-London leading to 3hr30 journey times.