No Delay Repay When You Extend Journey To Avoid Cancellation

[Metal_gee_man]

I have a well timed journey I do twice a week from Aylesham to Eastbourne via Ashford & Hastings.
I woke this morning checked Twitter and SE had part cancelled a train which formed one third of my journey it was the service between Dover Priory and Ashford. I knew the outcome of this would result in a delay repay & me arriving to Eastbourne over a hour late due to missed connections.
So in my semi lucid mind this morning I rushed out the house and caught a train 30mins earlier to allow me to make my connection at Ashford.
I've been mindful and used my brain extended my already 2h30m journey to 3h and yet I can't claim compensation for a cancelled train or my extra wasted time without it causing an actually delay to me and the resulting delay would have made me late for a meeting.
It seems that using my brain and wanting to still be on time isn't rewarded/compensated when I could have take SE to the cleaners and had a free journey.

What do you all think of this?

 

[mmh]

It seems that using my brain and wanting to still be on time isn't rewarded/compensated when I could have take SE to the cleaners and had a free journey.

Using your brain was rewarded, you got to your meeting on time, no?

 

[MikeWh]

It seems that using my brain and wanting to still be on time isn't rewarded/compensated when I could have take SE to the cleaners and had a free journey.

What do you all think of this?

I agree. If a known cancellation prompts me to take an earlier service then that should be accepted for compensation. Just because my additional time was spent before my journey rather than after doesn't change the fact that I had to spend extra time making the journey, especially if the arrival at the destination is the same (ie the overall journey was extended).

 

[Metal_gee_man]

Using your brain was rewarded, you got to your meeting on time, no?

Yes I did, but no thanks to SE for cancelling a train!

 

[yorkie]

There does not appear to be a contractual right to compensation for this sort of inconvenience.

It's perhaps morally unjustifiable, but it is a choice you can make: you can either choose to depart earlier to give yourself a better chance of arriving on time (at your own inconvenience) or you can depart at the contracted time and be entitled to recieve delay compensation.

It's unfortunate for a business passenger who has an important meeting, for whom the choice is likely to be the former option rather than the latter, but it's a choice that anyone can make.

If Southeastern insist they won't pay compensation, you could take it to the Ombudsman. I don't know how they would react to this but , if nothing else, it would be interesting to find out.

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I won't be forcing the issue, it was a moral what are peoples opinions because of this! Its frustrating more than anything else, it's not that I want half of my return ticket back, its more about a TOCs lack acknowledgement that they've screwed up another journey and the well you got there attitude

 

[extendedpaul]

A couple of years ago my booked 19.10 train from Birmingham New Street to London Euston was running about 40 minutes late. It originates at Edinburgh. I reached the platform at 18.45 where the previous 18.50 departure, starting from Birmingham, was boarding and far from full . Several people asked the Train Manager on the platform if they could travel earlier on their advance tickets but he refused point blank. At least one person within my earshot explained that the next train was delayed.

The 19.30 also departed before the 19.10 arrived. I think at least some of the 19.10 passengers did travel on that service but I returned to the concourse for a drink and caught the 19.10 at 19.45.

Delay Repay claimed and paid.

 

[Starmill]

I have in the past held an Advance ticket for a very long journey with one change of trains a short 10 minute connection where it was known in advance that my short connecting train was going to be cancelled. In this case, the local stopping train was 'reservable' for the purposes of Advance tickets. I asked if I'd get any compensation for leaving early and spending an additional 60 minutes at the interchange station, the result being an on time arrival. I was told by the social media team from the company that this wasn't allowed, because an Advance ticket is valid on the booked train only.

As a result, I decided to depart at the booked time knowing full well that my train was going to be cancelled, arrived more than an hour late and claimed all of the (significant sum) of money back that I'd paid for the ticket.

You can lead a horse to water...

 

[Metal_gee_man]

I have in the past held an Advance ticket for a very long journey with one change of trains a short 10 minute connection where it was known in advance that my short connecting train was going to be cancelled. In this case, the local stopping train was 'reservable' for the purposes of Advance tickets. I asked if I'd get any compensation for leaving early and spending an additional 60 minutes at the interchange station, the result being an on time arrival. I was told by the social media team from the company that this wasn't allowed, because an Advance ticket is valid on the booked train only.

As a result, I decided to depart at the booked time knowing full well that my train was going to be cancelled, arrived more than an hour late and claimed all of the (significant sum) of money back that I'd paid for the ticket.

You can lead a horse to water...

Technically, I could have lied (No @yorkie I wouldn't/Haven't done it) told them I travelled on my usual service, told them I missed my connection and claimed the repay but that's fraudulent so obviously I wouldn't claim.
But the TOCs are so fixated on the data and not the situations and the individuals at the end of of their cancellations the system is open to (in my case) abuse and in yours stupid payouts when it could be avoided... Sigh..

 

[hermit]

I had a similar experience a couple of years ago when Southern were cancelling large numbers of services and had instituted a temporary timetable. Delay repay was available against the normal timetable. The fast train which I would normally have taken to get me from Portsmouth Harbour to Arundel at the time I wanted was not running, and I therefore took an earlier train to get me there in time. The earlier departure meant that my railcard was not valid, so the fare was higher. In effect, my journey was delayed, even though I arrived on time.

I claimed compensation for the extra payment, which Southern turned down on the spurious (and completely irrelevant) ground that the ticket had not been sold by them. Ridiculous, as the only way for walk-up passengers to buy tickets at Portsmouth Harbour is from the SWR (then SWT) ticket office or machines.

I took the matter up with Transport Focus, who ruled in my favour, and after much procrastination Southern eventually paid up. It seems from some of the comments above that I may have been lucky.

 

[Clip]

What you have to ask yourself is

a) was your journey delayed?

If yes - then claim

If not - then dont

I dont see how you can claim for delay repay when you got there on time even if you had to take an earlier train - we all have that choice when we set out on our journey but i, and i know others will disagree, see no need for a claim here

 

[yorkie]

What you have to ask yourself is

a) was your journey delayed?

If yes - then claim

If not - then dont

I dont see how you can claim for delay repay when you got there on time even if you had to take an earlier train - we all have that choice when we set out on our journey but i, and i know others will disagree, see no need for a claim here

A definition of delay is:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delay

Definition of delay
(Entry 1 of 3)

1a : the act of postponing, hindering, or causing something to occur more slowly than normal : the state of being delayed

The customer was hindered; the journey did occur more slowly than normal.

If the principle of Delay Repay is to compensate a passenger for the loss of their time, and the inconvenience, then why shouldn't they be compensated in these situations?

 

[Clip]

A definition of delay is:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/delay

The customer was hindered; the journey did occur more slowly than normal.

If the principle of Delay Repay is to compensate a passenger for the loss of their time, and the inconvenience, then why shouldn't they be compensated in these situations?

The passenger got to where they wanted to be and there was no 'delay' to the passengers journey - they arrived on time and you know full well that delay repay only related to start and end journey times not a presumption of starting early.

I think this is clearly stated in all TOCs condtions and also NCoC - I mean you even alluded to it yourself with this statement

There does not appear to be a contractual right to compensation for this sort of inconvenience.

By your own admission, there was no contractual right to delay repay as they were not 'Delayed' and it doesn't matter how many dictionary definitions you post of what 'delay' means and please dont accuse me of being against passenger rights - if its contractual then fine - if its not then fine too.

 

[Starmill]

please dont accuse me of being against passenger rights -

So your point is... what exactly? You agree with yorkie that compensation should be paid under circumstances where there is significant inconvenience due to train delays? Or you disagree and think that compensation is not a payment for inconvenience, and only for technical matters about train running? The latter makes you obviously against passenger rights, and at odds with train companies, whose attitude is that customers deserve compensation for inconvenience. If it's the former it's unclear why you're arguing.

 

[Clip]

So your point is... what exactly? You agree with yorkie that compensation should be paid under circumstances where there is significant inconvenience due to train delays? Or you disagree and think that compensation is not a payment for inconvenience, and only for technical matters about train running? The latter makes you obviously against passenger rights, and at odds with train companies, whose attitude is that customers deserve compensation for inconvenience. If it's the former it's unclear why you're arguing.

I think youll find that i disagree with yorkie accusing me of being against passenger rights, starmill, which is what i was replying too in that sentence you quoted.

 

[yorkie]

I think youll find that i disagree with yorkie accusing me of being against passenger rights, starmill, which is what i was replying too in that sentence you quoted.

I don't really understand what your argument is.

@Metal_gee_man experienced a "delayed" journey (according to an accepted definition of the term) and was inconvenienced; their argument is that - at least morally - they should be entitled to do something, in the same way that someone else who set off half an hour later would have been.

It is unclear if you agree or disagree with this?

 

[alistairlees]

I don't really understand what your argument is.

@Metal_gee_man experienced a "delayed" journey (according to an accepted definition of the term) and was inconvenienced; their argument is that - at least morally - they should be entitled to do something, in the same way that someone else who set off half an hour later would have been.

It is unclear if you agree or disagree with this?

I don’t think there was any delay to Metal_gee_man’s journey, as he arrived on time and the definition of delay relates to an event occurring later than was originally expected; he did suffer an extended journey however.

I think you’ve unintentionally misinterpreted the Merriam Webster definition. In any case it’s a US dictionary so doesn’t have any relevance. The definition of delay in the Cambridge dictionary is clearer and should be more relevant (other UK dictionaries are available too!).

Quibbling about the definition of delay aside, this is an interesting case. Clearly it is indisputable that the OP suffered inconvenience by having a longer journey time than should have been provided by the railway, even if he was not actually delayed. I think in this case the OP should be compensated in the same way as if they had been delayed. (By which I mean that the extension of the journey in minutes is counted for the calculation of delay repay in the same way as if it had actually been a delay.)

I suspect that it is simply the case that no-one considered this possibility of a journey being extended, but there being no actual delay, when the delay repay rules were being drawn up. It would be good to see them amended to include this.

 

[yorkie]

I don’t think there was any delay to Metal_gee_man’s journey, as he arrived on time and the definition of delay relates to an event occurring later than was originally expected; he did suffer an extended journey however.

I think you’ve unintentionally misinterpreted the Merriam Webster definition. In any case it’s a US dictionary so doesn’t have any relevance. The definition of delay in the Cambridge dictionary is clearer and should be more relevant (other UK dictionaries are available too!).

OK but that does include:

"to cause someone or something to be slow or late"​

And an example given is:

"Long delays are predicted on the motorway because of the accident"
​

But the point is the OP was inconvenienced and their journey was extended by just as much as someone else making the same journey as someone who had not allowed extra for their journey; the OP confirmed that it was....

...a moral what are peoples opinions because of this! Its frustrating more than anything else, it's not that I want half of my return ticket back, its more about a TOCs lack acknowledgement that they've screwed up another journey and the well you got there attitude

... and I think, absolutely, they have a moral case for saying they should be just as entitled to claim.

Quibbling about the definition of delay aside, this is an interesting case. Clearly it is indisputable that the OP suffered inconvenience by having a longer journey time than should have been provided by the railway, even if he was not actually delayed. I think in this case the OP should be compensated in the same way as if they had been delayed. (By which I mean that the extension of the journey in minutes is counted for the calculation of delay repay in the same way as if it had actually been a delay.)

I suspect that it is simply the case that no-one considered this possibility of a journey being extended, but there being no actual delay, when the delay repay rules were being drawn up. It would be good to see them amended to include this.

Yes absolutely I agree they should be compensated and I would like to see the Delay Repay rules clarified and made more consistent.