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No opportunity to buy tickets on Northern Rail service from Rose Hill Marple to Manchester

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CC 72100

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This journey has a station stop every 3-5 minutes, with an end to end journey time of about 32 minutes, not a great deal of time to be selling tickets or walking through the train when they have to dispatch on time as well. At the end of the day the guard has more important things to be doing.

I'd regard walking through the train as pretty important - spot things and deal with them before they become big problems and they do start affecting safe and on-time running!
 
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Dentonian

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I have sources. The Ardwick one makes a bit more sense on that ground, but the other two don’t

On the other hand, many of our stations on the other side of the Pennines have no facilities at all (or where they do, they have one machine for two platforms) so it seems daft to waste them on the likes of Denton
Denton Station is a "waste" full stop. It is in the middle of nowhere unless you are a driver using the M60.
 

pemma

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This journey has a station stop every 3-5 minutes, with an end to end journey time of about 32 minutes, not a great deal of time to be selling tickets or walking through the train when they have to dispatch on time as well. At the end of the day the guard has more important things to be doing.

Which is precisely why DfT and Rail North proposed DCO so there aren't too many other duties for the second member of staff to not have time to walk through the train. Like I said earlier on the guard could miss potential safety issues by not walking through.
 

Dentonian

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The Northern TVMs have a long strip of coloured lighting at the top - green means TVM operational and red means TVM know it's out-of-order and if it's off it's probably not in service due to a fault such as a power supply problem. Passengers on trains from the Guide Bridge direction may be able to see the light from the train.

If the Northern TVMs had the feature of buying from another station then I imagine the Reddish South machine would sell a few tickets to people on their way to Reddish North, it might also get a fair few TODs issued.

Not sure why anyone from Reddish South area would want to buy a rail ticket there to travel from Reddish North. From RDN the train is cheaper than the bus, but from Reddish South area if you caught the bus, you would be paying £2.50 (or £4.50 return - DayRider) to get to RDN and then your Rail fare seperately. Further, whilst on paper the train is quicker from RDN to Manchester, it is appallingly unpunctual, and once you've got off the bus and waited for the train, the bus would be half way to Manchester. Depending on time of day/week, the bus will run much quicker between RDN and Manchester than between Reddish South and RDN anyway.

I suppose there might be slight demand going towards Sheffield, but would it not make sense to change in Stockport rather than RDN?
 

waynemorrell

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I wouldn't agree with your first statement. The number of services I've been on where the guard has walked through has increased significantly since Arriva took over, from my experience the guard comes through around 4 out of 5 times now, when it only used to be around 2 out of 5 under Serco/Abellio. The new guards Northern have recruited are certainly very enthusiastic - maybe they are keener to get commission than those who have been doing it a long time?

I’m not sure if it’s just a Abellio v Arriva thing though, I’ve often been on a Scotrail service which is Abellio owned and nine times out of ten, ticket checked. Only yesterday the guard came through the Inverness bound 158 I had just boarded. “Tickets from Dingwall please”. The same on the outbound leaving Inverness.
 

Bletchleyite

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This journey has a station stop every 3-5 minutes, with an end to end journey time of about 32 minutes, not a great deal of time to be selling tickets or walking through the train when they have to dispatch on time as well. At the end of the day the guard has more important things to be doing.

They always used to manage.
 

Hatter76

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Fare collection has been a problem for many years on this line. Travelling to Manchester the guard will come and sell tickets about 70 % of the time. Going the other way towards Rose Hill this drops to around 20%. Most joining and exiting at intermediate stations will get a free ride in my experience. There are only limited booking office staffing hours at Rose Hill. All other stations except Guide Bridge are pay on the train.

The problem of course is that this affects the statistics for the line making further improvement less likely, despite it being well used the line has no Sunday service. In May it gains an extra evening train but the last train is around 9pm.

Also, why are Northern are allowed to put ticket machines up that don't take cash?
 

Bletchleyite

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Also, why are Northern are allowed to put ticket machines up that don't take cash?

Because they are cheaper (to install and maintain), and the vast majority of people (increasing all the time) pay by card.

Give it another 10 years and I think most businesses, the railway included, will have ceased to accept cash altogether.
 

Shaw S Hunter

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Because they are cheaper (to install and maintain), and the vast majority of people (increasing all the time) pay by card.

Give it another 10 years and I think most businesses, the railway included, will have ceased to accept cash altogether.

I think you're wrong. More likely is that a (small) surcharge will be applied to cash transactions. This is what gave Oyster a massive push and is also the method adopted by the Dutch public transport system. I also think there could be significant legal problems with completely preventing people paying by cash.
 

waynemorrell

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Because they are cheaper (to install and maintain), and the vast majority of people (increasing all the time) pay by card.

Give it another 10 years and I think most businesses, the railway included, will have ceased to accept cash altogether.

Also security, no cash to nick.
 

Bletchleyite

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I also think there could be significant legal problems with completely preventing people paying by cash.

I don't. Legal tender does not apply if no debt has been incurred. As train tickets must be purchased in advance if a TVM is provided, no debt can be inccurred at the regular fare. London Buses has evidenced that this is not a problem.

It may (probably does) breach current franchise agreements, but those can be changed and new ones may not find it in breach.

If a PF is incurred, that has to be able to be paid in cash as it is a debt, of course, but nobody wants one of those.
 

Hatter76

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Understand the trend to pay on visa etc but for now both methods are accepted.

Hypothetically on this line if you got an intent to pay cash slip from the machine at an unstaffed station and exited at another intermediate station you will probably not be charged as the guard has limited time to collect the fare. This is lost revenue to the railway. If on the other hand the machine took both methods of payment there would be no excuse not to have a ticket.
 

Bletchleyite

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However, with most people paying by card these days, the cost of adding the cash handling mechanism and frequent emptying / change refilling may well exceed the likely amount of losses from fare dodging.
 

furnessvale

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However, with most people paying by card these days, the cost of adding the cash handling mechanism and frequent emptying / change refilling may well exceed the likely amount of losses from fare dodging.
............not to mention the cost of theft of and from machines that carry cash.
 

pemma

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Also security, no cash to nick.

The old cash and card machines were only installed at stations staffed for at least 14 hours per day. Unstaffed stations or ones with morning only staffing got card only machines, if they got a machine at all.
 

pemma

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I’m not sure if it’s just a Abellio v Arriva thing though, I’ve often been on a Scotrail service which is Abellio owned and nine times out of ten, ticket checked. Only yesterday the guard came through the Inverness bound 158 I had just boarded. “Tickets from Dingwall please”. The same on the outbound leaving Inverness.

That's not what I was getting at. I was meaning guards are being more proactive since DCO was proposed (under Arriva) not less, as someone else mooted.
 

pemma

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Not sure why anyone from Reddish South area would want to buy a rail ticket there to travel from Reddish North. From RDN the train is cheaper than the bus, but from Reddish South area if you caught the bus, you would be paying £2.50 (or £4.50 return - DayRider) to get to RDN and then your Rail fare seperately. Further, whilst on paper the train is quicker from RDN to Manchester, it is appallingly unpunctual, and once you've got off the bus and waited for the train, the bus would be half way to Manchester. Depending on time of day/week, the bus will run much quicker between RDN and Manchester than between Reddish South and RDN anyway.

I suppose there might be slight demand going towards Sheffield, but would it not make sense to change in Stockport rather than

For a journey like Reddish North to London or Birmingham it'll probably only be £1 more to book from Reddish than Stockport, plus if you miss the last connection on a rail only journey or the last train is cancelled the rail operator are responsible for getting you home at their expense. If you miss the last bus from Stockport or it doesn't turn up then you have to walk or pay out of your own pocket for a taxi.
 

Ianigsy

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............not to mention the cost of theft of and from machines that carry cash.

Also the amount of money tied up in cash floats which could otherwise be sitting on deposit somewhere else.

A couple of years ago I was in Stockholm and came across a pop up stall in a shopping centre which was card only. It did mean that quite a large stall in a busy location only needed one staff member because there was no cash to look after.
 

Bletchleyite

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Also the amount of money tied up in cash floats which could otherwise be sitting on deposit somewhere else.

A couple of years ago I was in Stockholm and came across a pop up stall in a shopping centre which was card only. It did mean that quite a large stall in a busy location only needed one staff member because there was no cash to look after.

Scandinavia is well ahead on that one - though I maintain, give it ten years or so and I can't see cash being accepted on the railway at all, or if it is it will be at a supplementary fee of some kind and only at the staffed ticket offices, and only during their hours of opening at the no doubt significantly reduced number of stations they will be found at.

Cash is an absolute nuisance. It's easy to steal, it's easy to defraud, it's easy to evade tax, it's costly to accept and process etc. The only businesses that like it are those seeking to evade VAT. Governments dislike it for that reason.
 

gray1404

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In future do not miss you connection if you don't have a ticket. Although I can understand this can be hard if there is a barrier check and they are insisting you show/buy a ticket before you can proceed through. Would you have been able to board your next service or were they preventing you?
 

Dentonian

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For a journey like Reddish North to London or Birmingham it'll probably only be £1 more to book from Reddish than Stockport, plus if you miss the last connection on a rail only journey or the last train is cancelled the rail operator are responsible for getting you home at their expense. If you miss the last bus from Stockport or it doesn't turn up then you have to walk or pay out of your own pocket for a taxi.

But the scenario painted was for tickets bought at Reddish South for travel from Reddish North. Interesting that there is only a minor excess to pay from RDN to destinations down south compared to Stockport, yet RDN direct to Sheffield is over £5 more than Stockport to Sheffield, despite the latter having more comfortable and more punctual trains. Digressing slightly, I was surprised to find last week that I could travel to Preston for £11 return on TPE, but if I wanted the option of travelling on ATN I would have to pay an additional £1+. It seems that unless there is a parallel bus service to compete with, ATN forever charge more than faster, more comfortable and more reliable alternative trains. Even allowing for a change in Crewe, the same applies to M'cr to Chester, for instance.
 

BestWestern

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I really can't imagine why somebody would wish to operate the doors on a Pacer whilst holding a book, they're enough of a faff with two free hands. I'm also curious as to why you would choose to carry the book around with you instead of leaving it in the cab - or is the OP suggesting it was such a good read the Guard was glued to the pages even as he dispatched the train?! Perhaps he was a lazy sod, perhaps his machine was knackered and he wasn't terribly good at communicating with his passengers, or perhaps he had a burning desire to be the subject of a thread on Railforums...

If the OP is absolutely sure, then the best course of action is probably to pop in a complaint and see if ATN have anything useful to say.
 

158756

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But the scenario painted was for tickets bought at Reddish South for travel from Reddish North. Interesting that there is only a minor excess to pay from RDN to destinations down south compared to Stockport, yet RDN direct to Sheffield is over £5 more than Stockport to Sheffield, despite the latter having more comfortable and more punctual trains. Digressing slightly, I was surprised to find last week that I could travel to Preston for £11 return on TPE, but if I wanted the option of travelling on ATN I would have to pay an additional £1+. It seems that unless there is a parallel bus service to compete with, ATN forever charge more than faster, more comfortable and more reliable alternative trains. Even allowing for a change in Crewe, the same applies to M'cr to Chester, for instance.

'Northern' (or the standard fare) is often more because they don't sell that many advance tickets.
As far as I can see a return from Reddish North to Sheffield is only £1 more than from Stockport (is it a longer distance by rail?) Chester - Manchester I can only find being cheapest on Northern, if you want to trundle around southern Manchester, using either advances of a return. When can you get it cheaper via Crewe?
 

rg177

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'Northern' (or the standard fare) is often more because they don't sell that many advance tickets.
As far as I can see a return from Reddish North to Sheffield is only £1 more than from Stockport (is it a longer distance by rail?) Chester - Manchester I can only find being cheapest on Northern, if you want to trundle around southern Manchester, using either advances of a return. When can you get it cheaper via Crewe?

The cheapest walkup is routed VTWC only, hence being for travel via Crewe.
 

158756

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The cheapest walkup is routed VTWC only, hence being for travel via Crewe.

Ah. It looks like NRE will only offer that if you specify via Crewe for some reason - it doesn't list the return journey via Crewe as an option otherwise.
 

Starmill

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Those aren't there to sell tickets (nor is the one that is allegedly being installed at Ardwick). They're to prevent people saying "but I came from X".
I hate to reopen an old argument, but that does not achieve that effect. Repeating it won't change that.

The one at Ardwick will no doubt get smashed up within a week or two, but if you haven't been there how do you know that? :)
Because it was posted on journey check.

Which is precisely why DfT and Rail North proposed DCO so there aren't too many other duties for the second member of staff to not have time to walk through the train.
I hate to reopen an old argument, but the most recent experience of DOO implementation has not resulted in an increase in the onboard staff's capacity to patrol trains. It is unchanged.

Hypothetically on this line if you got an intent to pay cash slip from the machine...
These aren't available.

Cash is an absolute nuisance. It's easy to steal, it's easy to defraud, it's easy to evade tax, it's costly to accept and process etc. The only businesses that like it are those seeking to evade VAT. Governments dislike it for that reason.
It's easy to defraud cash? The Governement don't like cash? What do those even mean? There is so much wrong with this I don't even know where to begin.

I pay for things all the time where cash is the only option I'm able to use either because of fees (including now banned fees that are still being charged, as enforcement may not yet have been started) or because cards are not accepted. I wish I knew where you came up with these things from!

What uncertainty?
Don't you think being in a dispute for well over a year would create some uncertainty? There's no need to discuss what caused the dispute. I think it's plain that an industrial dispute means uncertainty. There is no agreement that there will be no compulsory redundancies because guess what, there is a dispute.
 
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the sniper

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Even in those cases as a I will always make an announcement every few stops to give some reason why even if its just a generic technical fault with my machine and to apologize for the inconvenience , and I would still patrol the train if possible every so often to check that there are no other issues on board

I hope you cry like an ashamed Japanese politician too?

Next time this happens please report to RailUK first. Your excuse can then be logged and assessed by the forum on train staff monitoring team. It can then be decided whether your claim has any validity and your suggested demotion to OBS and subsequent redundancy date brought forward or put back deservingly.
 

BurtonM

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All Northern TVM's are card only now - I think the ones that accepted cash ceased to do so a little while ago

I was at Oxford Road earlier today, one of the machines had a broken card reader and a 'cash only' sign on it, and the other machine was accepting cash and card.

Those old machines are looking a bit worse for wear.
 

philthetube

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However, with most people paying by card these days, the cost of adding the cash handling mechanism and frequent emptying / change refilling may well exceed the likely amount of losses from fare dodging.
I keep hearing this, in my experience it is not the case, certainly not in the northern "mill towns" try standing at nelson interchange and watch the cafe/ticket office, if you see a card you are lucky, they usually only appear for expensive train tickets, certainly not for cups of coffee or £2.50 train fares.

I would be interested to hear from a Northern guard what percentage of transactions are card, particularly for shorter journeys
 
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