No Railcard Discount with FC ALR????

[ChrisTheRef]

I was shocked last night to find that a First Class 7 Day All Line Rail Rover will cost me £650, and not £429 as I first thought.

Why? Because a 16-25 railcard isn't valid for the ticket!!
Fair enough if all railcards couldn't be used, but my Nan is 75. She pays £26 for her railcard, she gets a third off all rail fares throughout the year, and she's allowed to because of her age. I'm 17. I pay £26 for my railcard, I get a third off all rail fares throughout the year, and I'm allowed to because of my age.

Why should I pay £221 more than her for the exact same ticket?

Do I have grounds for a complaint here? I'm really not happy, this will wreck my birthday.

 

[jon0844]

I didn't know you could get a discount with any railcard! Can you get a discount with an annual Gold Card?

 

[glynn80]

Do I have grounds for a complaint here? I'm really not happy, this will wreck my birthday.

Unfortunately YP discounts on FC fares are few and far between. The only FC ticket types with any comprehensive coversion with regard to YP discounts are Advance fares.

 

[the sniper]

You can use it on the standard class all line rail rover can't you?

 

[clagmonster]

I didn't know you could get a discount with any railcard! Can you get a discount with an annual Gold Card?

No discount with a gold card or Network railcard. The only discoutns offering a discount a senior, YP (second class only) and Disabled.
Chris, you complain about age discrimination. Surely on that basis anyone between 27-59 years of age is discriminated against becoase they can't get any form of discount at all, unless they are disabled, in the army or live in the south east.

 

[heart-of-wessex]

Yes you can get a discount on standard class ALRs with Railcards, as the National Rail site states, works out about the price of the child fare IIRC

 

[87015]

Do I have grounds for a complaint here?

No. The Y-P is there for people on lower incomes to reduce the cost of rail travel to make it more affordable. If you are passing up SC as an option then you clearly don't need the financial assistance of 33% reduction so are fair game for TOCs to charge the full whack.

And yes I do think there should be a national railcard scheme like germany and elsewhere.

 

[ChrisTheRef]

No. The Y-P is there for people on lower incomes to reduce the cost of rail travel to make it more affordable. If you are passing up SC as an option then you clearly don't need the financial assistance of 33% reduction so are fair game for TOCs to charge the full whack.

Agreed in theory. If you couldn't get 16-25 discount on an FC fare at all, but you can get a FC discount for everything except Anytime tickets....so why not this?

 

[TEW]

You can only get YP discount on Advance Purchase First Class tickets, no others.

 

[glynn80]

Agreed in theory. If you couldn't get 16-25 discount on an FC fare at all, but you can get a FC discount for everything except Anytime tickets....so why not this?

This isn't totally accurate.

The YP discount is only applicable to FC Advance fares (even this was only brought in at the time of Simplification) it is not applicable to FC walk-on fares such as the FSR (First Off Peak Return) or as you have stated the FOR (First Anytime Return).

 

[yorkie]

The railways discriminate against people due to age all the time. Unless the laws are tightened they will continue to get away with it. There is no prospect of discounts for people who are 27-59 unless they are on the dole or have some disability (or something that isn't really a disability but counts anyway), and senior railcard holders cannot get discounts for tickets entirely in the Network area before 0930, but YP holders can! on the other hand the TOCs are happy for 60+ year olds to be in FC but not happy for 16-26 year olds to be in FC.

You can try complaining but the mere existence of the YP/Senior cards is age discrimation.

 

[furryfeet]

not just age either !

why does the family railcard not give discounts on 1st class fares ?

 

[MCR247]

not just age either !

why does the family railcard not give discounts on 1st class fares ?

Why should it? Like 87015 said, its to give families cheaper tickets to travel by train, if they want to travel first class, then they obviously need it?

 

[TEW]

The idea of Railcards are to provide cheaper travel to those with less money, FC fares are hardly for people with little money with the exception of advance fares perhaps. Even so, do you want floods of children in First Class?

 

[the sniper]

Even so, do you want floods of children in First Class?

Exactly. If I paid the ridiculously high fare for a first class ticket I wouldn't want any families with little kids or students (and I am one!) in there. Surely there should be some exclusivity to First Class, even if it is nothing more then an emptier version of standard these days...? :roll:

Also, as most people have said, isn't First Class access on a Railcard against the whole point of their existence? Admittedly, I wouldn't begrudge the Senior Railcard holders the 'privilege' as they only use their Railcard's after 09:30, and hey, they deserve it.

 

[nedchester]

No. The Y-P is there for people on lower incomes to reduce the cost of rail travel to make it more affordable. If you are passing up SC as an option then you clearly don't need the financial assistance of 33% reduction so are fair game for TOCs to charge the full whack.

And yes I do think there should be a national railcard scheme like germany and elsewhere.

Yep see:

http://www.bahn.de/db_uk/view/products/bahncard.shtml

You can also have a German all line rover for a YEAR for 3650 EUR or push the boat out 6150 EUR for First class. Makes you realise what a rip off the fares are over here. IMHO the German railway network is far better as well!

 

[OwlMan]

Working inBelgium I get a employer's reduction on my ticket.
An annual rail card (covers all of SNCB) is 2703-00 euros with a employers contribution** of 2637 Euros leaving me to pay 66 euros for an annual all line rover!!
(**In Belgium (in simple terms) anyone who buys a season ticket to travel to work is entitled to a contribution from their employer, official tables are published to show the amount contributed***.

***see the link below for contributions,
http://www.b-rail.be/nat/N/assets/downloads/pdf/Werkgeversbijdragen_NL_01052009.pdf

Why can't our Government do something similar - it encourages use of public transport.

Peter

 

[nedchester]

Working inBelgium I get a employer's reduction on my ticket.
An annual rail card (covers all of SNCB) is 2703-00 euros with a employers contribution** of 2637 Euros leaving me to pay 66 euros for an annual all line rover!!
(**In Belgium (in simple terms) anyone who buys a season ticket to travel to work is entitled to a contribution from their employer, official tables are published to show the amount contributed***.

***see the link below for contributions,
http://www.b-rail.be/nat/N/assets/downloads/pdf/Werkgeversbijdragen_NL_01052009.pdf

Why can't our Government do something similar - it encourages use of public transport.

Peter

It does indeed but would deem it uncompetitive or some such nonsense.

 

[Oswyntail]

The idea of Railcards are to provide cheaper travel to those with less money, FC fares are hardly for people with little money with the exception of advance fares perhaps. Even so, do you want floods of children in First Class?

No - the idea of Railcards is to encourage more people to buy tickets, preferably on a regular basis (having made the massive commitment of buying the card). With a discounted fare, given the extra space in FC, it might tempt a passenger on to the network who wouldn't otherwise try it. Only when FC is full to capacity is there any reason to stop railcards or other discounted fares.

 

[will1337]

I think it'd be a good idea if Railcards apart from the Family were allowed in First Class apart from morning/afternoon peak because it tends to be deserted at that time and surely the TOCs would make a lot of money. Although it would make sense if the peak/off peak times actually followed demand, please take note FGW who make it rather tricky to know when it's possible to go either in or out of London off peak.

 

[MCR247]

I think it'd be a good idea if Railcards apart from the Family were allowed in First Class apart from morning/afternoon peak because it tends to be deserted at that time and surely the TOCs would make a lot of money. Although it would make sense if the peak/off peak times actually followed demand, please take note FGW who make it rather tricky to know when it's possible to go either in or out of London off peak.

Yeah, it'd be good to be able to get a discount in FC with a RC, but maybe just not in peak hours

 

[will1337]

I guess allowing advance FC fares with a railcard effectively does that anyway since they are far cheaper at those times usually.

 

[87031]

why dont u get a standard class ALR then pay the 1st class upgrades when needed that way you get your rover for i think £284 so depending on what your plan is you could make some journeys in standard and some in 1st. Weekend 1st is available but i think most train managers should be able to sell you an upgrade in the week. As for the sleepers if your doing your rover with someone else you can just go for the standard upgrade and share a berth, you can pay a little more if you want the hot breakfast i think you get tea and biscuits with the standard sleeper. You would have to sit down and plan how much upgrading would cost on top of your £284.

 

[A60K]

Surely an 'upgrade' during the week will be, if even possible, the difference between the Standard Anytime and the First Anytime singles for the journey being made? If so, that will be very expensive.

And if the All Line Rover is with Y-P discount, what would be the situation:
a) the difference between the Y-P discounted Standard fare and the full First fare
b) you wouldn't be able to upgrade to First

I guess the FRPP has the answers?

 

[glynn80]

Surely an 'upgrade' during the week will be, if even possible, the difference between the Standard Anytime and the First Anytime singles for the journey being made? If so, that will be very expensive.

And if the All Line Rover is with Y-P discount, what would be the situation:
a) the difference between the Y-P discounted Standard fare and the full First fare
b) you wouldn't be able to upgrade to First

I guess the FRPP has the answers?

The FRPP does not cater specifically for Rover tickets per se, but does explain the excess fare to be charged for Season Ticket holders and I think it would be pretty safe to say that this is the excess an ALR holder would be asked to pay.

The Excess Fare to charge when there was “no opportunity to buy” before boarding the train

Transfer to First Class accommodation

National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Condition 39, allows a customer holding a ticket for travel in Standard accommodation to travel in First Class, on payment of an Excess fare. General principles for Excess fares are:

...

Season Tickets

The difference between the price of the Standard and First Class Single ticket, available for immediate travel, for the journey being made.

 

[jon0844]

When tickets are revised in the future, and we start to spread out the use of smartcards, I guess it will be possible to start offering discounts on the basis of loyalty - or how many journeys you do in a specific time (and when, such as off-peak services).

There's loads of scope to radically change the way public transport is charged, but I bet it is some time away from happening.

 

[ukrob]

Also, as most people have said, isn't First Class access on a Railcard against the whole point of their existence? Admittedly, I wouldn't begrudge the Senior Railcard holders the 'privilege' as they only use their Railcard's after 09:30, and hey, they deserve it.

Sorry but I have to pick you up on that - why do they 'deserve it'?

There are lots of very rich pensioners (and lots of poor too).

 

[ivanhoe]

Sorry but I have to pick you up on that - why do they 'deserve it'?

There are lots of very rich pensioners (and lots of poor too).

You could say that they have contributed towards taxes
for over 40 years and they deserve this 'perk'.

 

[furryfeet]

what is wrong with famillies in 1st class ?
There must be a market for those famillies who would want to pay a bit more for the extra comfort, without having to pay full fares, which would be unaffordable.

Surely if the children turn out to be howlers then it is up to the guard ultimately to get them to move to another compartment.

I agree whole heartedly with oswyntail - railcards are there to attract people to the railway and fill seats that would otherwise carry fresh air.

 

[thefab444]

You could say that they have contributed towards taxes
for over 40 years and they deserve this 'perk'.

Not to mention free bus passes and a state pension?

Old people get enough as it is.