No Ticket? Fine/Court/Criminal Record? Help?

[Chapeltom]

Yeah, Northern. Its funny, because you only usually have to flash something orange to the guys at Lime Street. I've seen people without tickets walk straight through without a problem!

 

[MikeWh]

Thanks Yorkie, Id like to avoid a court imposed fine and criminal record at all costs.

What do you believe to be a good line of attack on this? Write to them when I hear from them offering to pay the compensation to the train company out of court?

I don't want to argue or to take it to court and try and get around it that way, I'd rather just pay up and accept it was a mistake and that I'll compensate for that.
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and by fine I didn't mean I'd like to go to court and pay the fine, I meant pay the out of court compensation fee, I just wasn't aware it wasn't called a fine as this is all totally new and foreign to me! apologies for the confusion!

1. Please try to stop worrying. If this really is your first offence then it really isn't going to end up in court unless you do something particularly stupid like ignore all correspondance.
2. You will get a letter asking for your side of the story. Tell it honestly so that your story matches the report by the RPI.
3. Someone on here will proof read your reply if you want, but if you tell it exactly like it was, with a sincere apology, there shouldn't be much of a problem.
4. They may offer you a settlement fee to close the matter at the same time, or it may come in response to your statement. As long as you've been truthful and remorseful I can pretty much guarantee that a settlement will be offered for a first offence.
5. If you send off the settlement asked for that will be the end of the matter. No criminal record, but your details will be held on railway files so they can see if you do it again.
6. Don't worry about confusing a fine with an administrative penalty or fee. It's very easy to do if you aren't aware of the technicallities. We tend to re-iterate the difference as a way of educating people who find us in similar situations.

 

[DPC_1989]

MikeWH. Thanks very much for the detailed reply, I'm going to comply with exactly what they say/ask and I'll post what the letter says and/or my response to it up on here in case I have done something tragically wrong in the letter.

Like I said, it was a first offence, out of pure stupidity and panic, the inspector sort of understood that I believe, and I wrote down a lot of notes of what happened and why it did, so that when I come to write the letter there are no changes/discrepancies.

Once again I'd just like to thank you all for your knowledge of how the system/procedure works. I wasn't coming on here for sympathy or for someone to understand my story, I just wanted an honest outlook on how these things play out and some knowledge of an area which I have very little, so thanks again to everyone on this forum for contributing with everything, its been a massive help, it really has, and its a credit to this forum in terms of not only the quality of the conversation and comments, but in the speed of the replies, so once again, thank you!

 

[Solent&Wessex]

Just for information there was a joint operation on the 16th at Liverpool involving RPOs from Northern, TPE and possibly others. Anicdotal evidence suggests that Northern and TPE tend to process things differently, with Northern only requesting payment of the fare and a small admin fee at the first instance, with TPE putting everything straight through to the prosecutions unit at the first instance, and expecting a much larger out of court settlement to avoid going any further.

 

[snail]

You cannot receive a fine from a train company. Only a court can impose a fine.

Why is this so frequently the first response to so many that come here looking for advice? I know it's true but it sounds so pedantic and superior. If someone has to pay above the normal fare they will see it as a fine, even though we more knowledgeable types know it is really a penalty.

 

[Brucey]

Why is this so frequently the first response to so many that come here looking for advice? I know it's true but it sounds so pedantic and superior. If someone has to pay above the normal fare they will see it as a fine, even though we more knowledgeable types know it is really a penalty.

It avoids confusion in any further discussions as "fine" means something very different (i.e. conviction and criminal record) to "out of court settlement" (i.e. slap on the wrist).

 

[ralphchadkirk]

Why is this so frequently the first response to so many that come here looking for advice? I know it's true but it sounds so pedantic and superior. If someone has to pay above the normal fare they will see it as a fine, even though we more knowledgeable types know it is really a penalty.

Because usually we are dealing with the law in these discussions so it's helpful if people use terms properly.


Sent from my iPhone 4 using Tapatalk

 

[DPC_1989]

Hi all again, thanks again for the help, advice and opinions I have received to this post.

I was stopped and spoken to on 16th May and still have not heard back from anything regarding a possible visit to court and/or paying a fee/fine (whichever is the correct terminology!) in or out of court...

Just wondering whether anyone has previous experience of how long these things take to come back to you? I believe the rail company was Northern if that helps?

Thanks again

 

[island]

It has been known for it to take over two months on occasion.

 

[DaveNewcastle]

I thought I was seeing double for a moment!

alex89, who began this thread : Northern Rail Fare Evasion Letter received., asked exactly the same question this morning in this post.

I guess you missed it. I replied:

It appears to depend on the workload, and I don't know how big that is at present.
I've known Northern to take as long as 2 months to process an apparently simple matter which had (only) 4 Witness Statements.

Perhaps island had this morning's post in mind when replying?

However, if you don't even receive a letter informing you of their investigation and asking for your version of events within another 2 or 3 weeks (and it hadn't merely been misdirected), then it might become safe to assume that you never will. Only time will tell, unless you're brave enough to phone their Prosecutions' Department to ask without risking that you would incriminate yourself. Without having spoken with you to assess your skills in such a matter, I would prefer that you asked a solicitor to make that call on your behalf if you really didn't want to wait and find out the long way.

 

[142094]

Depends on what is happening in Northern's Bradford office. Remember it is summer (just), so there might be people on annual leave.

 

[DPC_1989]

Hi again all,
As expected the dreaded letter has arrived, right on two months...

Basically outlining what has happened, the non payment of a rail fare, and allowing me to give me account and response as to what has happened.

I'm a young architect and can't afford for this to go to court and receive a criminal record and/or up to three months inside. Prison might seem a bit farfetched but receiving a letter stating it as a possible outcome is something else. I need to settle this matter outside of court and you guys asked me to come back to you if I needed any help of things to say/what I should do.

I'm drafting up a letter basically saying I made a huge mistake one time and never again, its my first and only time anything like this has happened and I'd be willing to pay whatever is necessary to keep it out of court and settle it.

If anyone has any ideas of what I should or should not say, then please, please let me know.

Any help on this I would hugely appreciate.

Thanks
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I can also post up part or all of the letter I am drafting up, it basically explains that I got caught up in a queue of people, was slowly heading towards the inspectors, absolutely panicked, decided I had to show something, showed a ticket from the previous nights return journey, and was pulled up. Then it goes on to say that this is my first experience in such a horrible scenario such as this, and that I am deeply sorry, and would like to pay the expenses necessary to keep it out of court and stop the process going on for any longer

 

[island]

Let me first dismiss one thing which is the prison suggestion - if you have no previous offences then you are not liable for a prison sentence.

Does the letter mention any of the following key terms:

List 1: Railway Byelaws, 18, failure to hand over ticket
List 2: Regulation of Railways Act 1889, 5 (3), intent to avoid payment

And who issued the letter? Northern Rail? Merseytravel? Or someone else again?

 

[DPC_1989]

Morning, I believe it was the second one, and it was northern

 

[island]

That is unfortunately a more serious category of offence, and is recordable so would show up on a CRB check. There are some people here who would proof-read your reply to Northern. I am not the best one so if someone else comes along, listen to them.

 

[DPC_1989]

I thought as much when reading your reply this morning.

Do you think its possible to avoid going to court over this allegation, and offering a sincere and honest apology, as well as compensating the necessary parties?

 

[island]

Almost certainly, if dealt with carefully.

 

[DPC_1989]

rightio, well if anyone has any ideas of what this letter should and shouldn't say then I would massively appreciate it.

I'm in the process of drafting up a grovelling letter to basicallt explain I panicked and it was a horrible drastic decision and that I am deeply sorry and wish to compensate for this whole horrible event

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Those sentiments would all be appropriate mention in your letter.
We can't put words into your mouth, but if these are true, then you could add some context such as having been enjoying the benefits of travel with the Company for years, having appreciated the Courtesy of their staff, and how you have learned something the hard way which you would not be doing again.
If it is true to your feelings, then the word "sorry" can say a lot.

Some people might write a little explanation of their reaction to an inspection by panicing and consequently making an error. If you can do so helpfully and honestly, it might explain to a Prosecutor the one remaining mystery in your incident: why you paniced.

I hope this helps.

 

[DPC_1989]

Thanks Dave, really appreciate everyones help and assistance on this.

The letter I have written basically says how much of a panic I was in, and that I am deeply sorry and wish to compensate for the event.

I have sene on previous articles on this forum that because the letter states something about to the value of £150, would it be wise to offer a monetary value in the letter too? Or just state generally that I wish to compensate out of court?

 

[DaveNewcastle]

Its not really for you to put a figure to the Company; its for them to evaluate their costs to date and to assess the relative benefits to themselves of a settlement vs a prosecution.

It should be enough for you to express a wish to reach an amicable solution, to which end you wish to compensate the Company for the inconvenienced caused.

 

[DPC_1989]

I agree, I didn't feel right trying to put an amount of something I have little/no experience in or of.

I'm in work all day today so its pretty much occupying 100% of my mind at the moment! So if anyone has any thoughts of what to say/do or what might happen due to past experience I would really appreciate it

 

[island]

Some settlements of late have been of a lower figure so you may end up over-offering.

Some verbiage such as "I would like to bring the matter to an early and amicable close by compensating Northern Rail for the administrative and other expenses that you have incurred to date, and of course the fare which I did not end up paying on the day. If you could advise what these sums are I will arrange prompt payment." will probably work.

 

[DPC_1989]

Thats great, thanks again island

 

[34D]

Thats great, thanks again island

Don't rush to get a letter in tonights post. Get something drafted up, then read through it again over the weekend, and perhaps one of the senior members here will also take a read.

Remind us if you would, what the reason was why you couldn't get a ticket at your start station.

 

[DPC_1989]

I queued up to get my ticket but the train arrived and I jumped on.

I then got into pretty much the wrong queue, with a massive crowd behind me and panicked and decided I needed to show something, which i realise now was hugely the wrong thing to do. But at the time it was a spare of the moment rash decision
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Hello all, I'm sending my letter off tomorrow AM and was just wondering whether anyone had any views on what to include and what not to include? I feel like this is my huge last chance to keep this whole horrible incident away from court and a criminal record, so if there's anything that you think might help, please let me know.

Thanks again

 

[Greenback]

Hello all, I'm sending my letter off tomorrow AM and was just wondering whether anyone had any views on what to include and what not to include? I feel like this is my huge last chance to keep this whole horrible incident away from court and a criminal record, so if there's anything that you think might help, please let me know.

Thanks again

I don't think you can do any better than to follow DaveNewcastle's advice earlier in the thread.

In short, apologise, give a brief outline of what happened and how you panicked, stress that you wish you to reach an amicable solution and offer to make compensation for the unpaid fare and the TOC's inconvenience.

 

[DPC_1989]

Hi all,
During across the past few months you've all been so helpful, into the realistic insight into whats happening or what is likely to happen, so I'd just like to say thank you for all your advice, in particular to DaveNewcastle and island who have been constantly helpful/insightful.

The whole affair seems to have drawn to a close now, I sent off a well written letter (if i may so myself...) apologising and explaining that I had been stupid, made a rash ont he spot decision and that I had well and truly learnt my lesson from this process, and wish to compensate all necessary parties. I was charged with an out of court fee of £80 and the train fair I did not pay, of 1.80, so a total of 81.80. Just thought I'd let you all know how it went, and post the ending to this story in case it may help anyone for future reference, as I know I have appreciated all the advice I have been given along the way.

Thanks again,

Chris

 

[ainsworth74]

Thanks for coming back and letting us know how you got on! A lot of people don't bother so it leaves us in the dark as to how things turned out. If you need any help with other ticketing issues please do come back

 

[6Gman]

It's nice to see someone coming back to give us details of an outcome. Also nice that the TOC concerned sets its out of court settlement fee at a reasonable level.