NO to Llandudno 11 coach tour trains

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merlodlliw

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Taken from this weeks North Wales Rail newsboard,copied with permission


'Statesman Rail have been told at the eleventh hour that their Yorkshire Coast Express' excursion featuring a run behind steam from York to Scarborough on Saturday 14 July will have to begin and end at Llandudno Junction rather than Llandudno. This is because of a decree by the "Area Signalling Supervisor" who has decided the platforms at Llandudno cannot accommodate 11 coach trains. If this decision is upheld, it will mean the end of Statesman's services to the resort and probably others as well.'
We would guess that this is the same problem experienced in the past, in that a long train including a locomotive standing in the station will be detected by the track circuits protecting the station 'throat', and prevent the signaller from clearing the signals for any other trains although the actual routes into the other platforms is clear. The operators probably feel that the loss of revenue for a shorter train will destroy the business case for running the train. (This one is 'sold out'.) And serving Llandudno Junction instead, although only a couple of miles away, is just not as attractive; providing a coach transfer is more expense. How about uncoupling the loco and sending it back to Llandudno Junction until soon before departure, or even put it in another platform at Llandudno?

We hear that Arriva will honour Statesman's tickets on their first service from Llandudno to connect with the Scarborough train at Llandudno Junction. Full marks to them. The matter has been raised in Llandudno Town Council, and 'strong letters' are going to MP and AM.

link http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm
 
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Masboroughlad

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Taken from this weeks North Wales Rail newsboard,copied with permission


'Statesman Rail have been told at the eleventh hour that their Yorkshire Coast Express' excursion featuring a run behind steam from York to Scarborough on Saturday 14 July will have to begin and end at Llandudno Junction rather than Llandudno. This is because of a decree by the "Area Signalling Supervisor" who has decided the platforms at Llandudno cannot accommodate 11 coach trains. If this decision is upheld, it will mean the end of Statesman's services to the resort and probably others as well.'
We would guess that this is the same problem experienced in the past, in that a long train including a locomotive standing in the station will be detected by the track circuits protecting the station 'throat', and prevent the signaller from clearing the signals for any other trains although the actual routes into the other platforms is clear. The operators probably feel that the loss of revenue for a shorter train will destroy the business case for running the train. (This one is 'sold out'.) And serving Llandudno Junction instead, although only a couple of miles away, is just not as attractive; providing a coach transfer is more expense. How about uncoupling the loco and sending it back to Llandudno Junction until soon before departure, or even put it in another platform at Llandudno?

We hear that Arriva will honour Statesman's tickets on their first service from Llandudno to connect with the Scarborough train at Llandudno Junction. Full marks to them. The matter has been raised in Llandudno Town Council, and 'strong letters' are going to MP and AM.

link http://www.nwrail.org.uk/nwnews.htm
There are so many unnecessary reasons to stop things like this happening. Our world has truly gone H and S mad. If it has been safe in the past, surely it can be again.

I would be pig sick if I had booked on it all the way to Llandudno, only be told to get off at the junction - whatever the onward travel arrangements. It is a special excursion to Llandudno, not to LJ with a coach or being crammed into a ATW unit as an added extra.

#findswalltobangheadagainst
 

fgwrich

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Which is odd, because i was on a 10 coach tour to Llandudno back in 2009 and that fitted into the station with some room to spare - and that included a run around of the 67 and them a shunt move from platform 2 to 1!
 

scotsman

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The SRPS tour there was 11 coach and had to have 2 coaches plus a dead 47 removed to fit in to Llandudno. In all honesty, I don't really see how the train could have been any longer and fitted without fouling the line into the other platform
 

185

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So thanks to Network Rail, this one-off train now terminates at a bland out-of-town retail park. Poor excuse, really.

Shocking how when the box at Piccadilly messes up and drops your 6-car train ontop of a mostly-occupied platform with the back four coaches out the station and way past the signal, 'it's alright' then.
 

The Planner

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Sectional appendix shows the platforms as 216m maximum, so 11 mk3s aren't going to fit if my maths is correct and it would be damn tight for mk2s aswell.
 

sprinterguy

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Sectional appendix shows the platforms as 216m maximum, so 11 mk3s aren't going to fit if my maths is correct and it would be damn tight for mk2s aswell.
The stock should be West Coasts’ mark 1 rake. Not that I’m disagreeing with you mind, if those in the know say that it can’t be done, then it can’t be done.

Mind you, it’s not like the train would be at Llandudno at particularly busy times of the day anyway (It departs Llandudno Junction at 06:54, arriving back there at 21:44), and as it would only be picking up and dropping off passengers there at the start/end of the day surely it could just be straight in and straight out fairly quickly.

And would it be such a hardship to leave the First Class dining portion of the train at Llandudno Junction (There’s a bay platform, and a loop as well isn’t there?), and just run the standard class portion of the train up the branch to pick up the passengers, with a bit of shunting taking place at Llandudno Junction to combine/split the two portions as necessary (The train will no doubt be top and tailed, reducing even the need for loco run-rounds during this procedure)? The train picks up/drops off at other points east of Llandudno Junction anyway, so the number of passengers onboard this early on shouldn’t be a problem.
 

OxtedL

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There are so many unnecessary reasons to stop things like this happening. Our world has truly gone H and S mad. If it has been safe in the past, surely it can be again.
Did you actually read the explanation suggested in the the OP's quote?

This is the second time within 24 hours you've jumped straight in with some baseless health and safety comments. It's very frustrating because you're clearly not making any attempt at reading or understanding what the actual issues could be.
 

Masboroughlad

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Did you actually read the explanation suggested in the the OP's quote?

This is the second time within 24 hours you've jumped straight in with some baseless health and safety comments. It's very frustrating because you're clearly not making any attempt at reading or understanding what the actual issues could be.
Yes I did read it thank you very much. I just think it is a shame that such problems are not foreseen at the outset, when first planned. It just shows up a lack of joined up thinking somewhere.
 

OxtedL

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I'm not seeing the resemblance between
Yes I did read it thank you very much. I just think it is a shame that such problems are not foreseen at the outset, when first planned. It just shows up a lack of joined up thinking somewhere.
and
There are so many unnecessary reasons to stop things like this happening. Our world has truly gone H and S mad. If it has been safe in the past, surely it can be again.
But anyway.

It does seem a shame that they didn't ask the right questions at the outset, but then they probably involve a very large number of people in the process. Particularly given this is Network Rail. The description in the OP sounds like someone has just realised the specifics of what's planned and is putting their foot down, with it being too much hassle to try and run in it's original form.
 

SIGGY56

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Sectional appendix shows the platforms as 216m maximum, so 11 mk3s aren't going to fit if my maths is correct and it would be damn tight for mk2s aswell.
LLANDUDNO : Run round facilities (Platforms 1 & 2)

Platform 1 = Loco and 8 coaches
Platform 2 = Loco and 9 coaches

All three platforms can take Loco and 10 Mk3 coaches.

Platform 3 could at one time take 12 coaches and 1 Loco until they moved back the signal at the end of the platform in 2005.

Prior to the 1978 Llandudno resignalling the box diagram only had one track circuit (up to the starting signal). No track circuits at all in any of the five platforms going at the time. All the points and crossings outside the box had no track circuits so locos or coaching stock could stand foul pass the signal at the end of each platform, provided it stood clear of any trains that wanted to come in.

Today (in technical terms!), any train that stands foul pass the protecting signals on platforms 1, 2 and 3 also activates and starts the road light sequence on Deganwy Quay CCTV LC (indicating a train leaving Llandudno !!). The signaller at Deganwy then has to reset his Deganwy Quay control unit (from auto to local control to return the road lights to normal)

Down sidings out of use since 2005 so no run rounds done here (or ever again!) in the future.:|
 
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The Informer

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LLANDUDNO : Run round facilities (Platforms 1 & 2)

Platform 1 = Loco and 8 coaches
Platform 2 = Loco and 9 coaches

All three platforms can take Loco and 10 Mk3 coaches.

Platform 3 could at one time take 12 coaches and 1 Loco until they moved back the signal at the end of the platform in 2005.

Prior to the 1978 Llandudno resignalling the box diagram only had one track circuit (up to the starting signal). No track circuits at all in any of the five platforms going at the time. All the points and crossings outside the box had no track circuits so locos or coaching stock could stand foul pass the signal at the end of each platform, provided it stood clear of any trains that wanted to come in.

Today (in technical terms!), any train that stands foul pass the protecting signals on platforms 1, 2 and 3 also activates and starts the road light sequence on Deganwy Quay CCTV LC (indicating a train leaving Llandudno !!). The signaller at Deganwy then has to reset his Deganwy Quay control unit (from auto to local control to return the road lights to normal)

Down sidings out of use since 2005 so no run rounds done here (or ever again!) in the future.:|

I think its safe to say "case closed" on that one!!!
 

Joseph_Locke

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So, in summary, a charter operator didn't read the operating publications properly and is trying to run an 11-car train into a platform that hasn't been long enough to do this in for some time, and is now complaining?



Masboroughlad said:
There are so many unnecessary reasons to stop things like this happening. Our world has truly gone H and S mad. If it has been safe in the past, surely it can be again.
One of them is called the signalling system, the fundamental principles of which have been developed (often) in response to public outrage at the lack of safety on railways. You the general public has demanded action after accidents that has led, inexorably, to AWS, TPWS, DVD, block working, automatic brakes, track circuits, compulsory random drugs and alcohol testing, limits on working hours, constant testing and assessment of staff, AHB level crossings, central locking, TASS, lineside fences and megatons of paperwork.

You and your ancestors voted for all this, so don't blame the railway when something is ruled out on safety grounds.
 

TDK

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To be honest the railway is there for freight and passenger trains to do their business and if a rail tour has been poorly organised by the organisers not taking into account the train length that is where the blame lies and not with network rail who in all honesty owe more to the Toc's and FOC's than a rail tour company.
 

STEVIEBOY1

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I guess RTC summer trips along the north wales coast will just now call at the Junction and not go in and out of the more central station which they were planning to do and have done in previous years. Very often the organisers are fine, but let down by other principals at short notice.
 

tbtc

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So, in summary, a charter operator didn't read the operating publications properly and is trying to run an 11-car train into a platform that hasn't been long enough to do this in for some time, and is now complaining?
Yes - it's a bit like me trying to drive a truck down a village road then complaining that it's the road's fault that it can't handle my massive truck.

Lots of wailing about "Health and Safety" when the real problem is a badly organised railtour (not legislation which saves lives)
 
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