No toilets - Crosscountry cardiff - nottingham

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paulfoel

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Fair distance too. Can someone explain this to me?

Generally, three carriages each of which has a toilet. I assume there is no link? i.e. toilets are independent.

If so, then its pretty poor to have to run a train with all three carriages with faulty toilets. Having one faulty is believable but CCs excuse that they became faulty shortly before the journey does sound far fetched to me.

Their answer when I queried about what they planned to do - alert the train manager who would arrange a toilet stop. Not even sure how many stations enroute have toliets anyway.

Can imagine it being a long journey if a few people decided to get off for a ten minuter.

Another example of a 3rd class rail system where the TOC dont give a stuff.

Appreciate no-one wants trains cancelled but TOC should be fined for not providing an adequate service. Dont even get me started on CC and their heating - Im sure they know that a large proportion of their carriages just dont have working heating anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Got a friend who has Crohns disease. They could not have travelled on this train at all.

I guess all you'd have got from the TOC is a shrug of the shoulders....
 
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headshot119

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The toilets will automatically go out of use if the CET (Chemical Emission Tanks); which hold the toilet waste, become full.

Some cross country units cover hundreds of miles a day, and work for several hours, if one toilet has become full, I can believe the others aren't far behind.
 

Minilad

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Only 2 toilets on a 3 car 170.
Not unheard of for both to be OOU but pretty rare.
Toilet stops at Gloucester or Cheltenham could be arranged. Easier to be Gloucester as it wouldn't block the main line.
Not something that can be easily rectified if the tank is full unfortunately and nothing to do with the TOC not giving a stuff.
As for the heating comment I work on XC 170s most days and the problem you talk about was explained to you. Seems you didn't listen though. XC 170s do not have a large proportion of their carriages with out heating at all
 

Llanigraham

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Generally, three carriages each of which has a toilet. I assume there is no link? i.e. toilets are independent.
They are all independent.

If so, then its pretty poor to have to run a train with all three carriages with faulty toilets. Having one faulty is believable but CCs excuse that they became faulty shortly before the journey does sound far fetched to me.
Why is it unbelievable or far fetched? Toilet tanks fill up when people use them; end of! Perhaps you would prefer we go back to the old ways of just dumping it straight onto the tracks?

Their answer when I queried about what they planned to do - alert the train manager who would arrange a toilet stop. Not even sure how many stations enroute have toliets anyway.

Can imagine it being a long journey if a few people decided to get off for a ten minuter.

Another example of a 3rd class rail system where the TOC dont give a stuff.
So they offered you a way out of the situation, but you cannot accept that and prefer to criticise instead.
Plenty of stations have public toilets.

Appreciate no-one wants trains cancelled but TOC should be fined for not providing an adequate service. Dont even get me started on CC and their heating - Im sure they know that a large proportion of their carriages just dont have working heating anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Got a friend who has Crohns disease. They could not have travelled on this train at all.

I guess all you'd have got from the TOC is a shrug of the shoulders....
If we take your complaint to it's logical conclusion then the only answer is to cancel a train as soon as it's tanks are full, but you don't seem to want that situation either.
:roll::roll:
 
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6Gman

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It's a consequence of "sweating the assets".

Units are worked more intensively; higher mileages; fewer depots etc etc

Simple answer? Spend more money.

Do we put it on the fares or take it from the taxpayer?
 

Bletchleyite

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If we take your complaint to it's logical conclusion then the only answer is to cancel a train as soon as it's tanks are full, but you don't seem to want that situation either.
:roll::roll:

Or perhaps AXC could arrange to empty the toilet tanks at a correct interval such that they don't get full?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Simple answer? Spend more money.

Do we put it on the fares or take it from the taxpayer?

It is a cost to the business to provide the advertised toilet facilities, the answer is "either of the above" as appropriate.
 

hounddog

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It's a consequence of "sweating the assets".

Units are worked more intensively; higher mileages; fewer depots etc etc

Simple answer? Spend more money.

Do we put it on the fares or take it from the taxpayer?

How about from the profits?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Not something that can be easily rectified if the tank is full unfortunately and nothing to do with the TOC not giving a stuff.

Really? If it's not the TOC who arranges the emptying who does? If the tanks are filling up regularly they're not being emptied often enough. It's not rocket science.
 

Minilad

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How about from the profits?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Really? If it's not the TOC who arranges the emptying who does? If the tanks are filling up regularly they're not being emptied often enough. It's not rocket science.

IF the tank is full. It's not the only reason a toilet could be out of use.
 

David Emmott

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Looks to me like TOCs trying to do things on the cheap by not allowing enough service time to empty the toilets etc. If this sort of thing happens at all frequently it is a sign that their practice needs to be looked at.
And not all stations have toilets that are [a] easily accessible from the platforms easily accessible for disabled passengers or [c] permanently open without the need for a key from the staff. Let alone the delay caused if more than one or two people needed to use them.
 

headshot119

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CET tanking equipment is usually only available on depots (In fact I don't know of any stations that have such equipment).

So what do people want with the limited amount of rolling stock available? Services to be run, or trains running back to depots to empty out?
 

edwin_m

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They should allow for toilet discharge on a depot often enough for it not to be a problem. But if one of the two toilets fails for some other reason and can't be fixed, the other one will fill up twice as quickly.
 

bolli

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Fair distance too. Can someone explain this to me?

Generally, three carriages each of which has a toilet. I assume there is no link? i.e. toilets are independent.

If so, then its pretty poor to have to run a train with all three carriages with faulty toilets. Having one faulty is believable but CCs excuse that they became faulty shortly before the journey does sound far fetched to me.

Their answer when I queried about what they planned to do - alert the train manager who would arrange a toilet stop. Not even sure how many stations enroute have toliets anyway.

Can imagine it being a long journey if a few people decided to get off for a ten minuter.

Another example of a 3rd class rail system where the TOC dont give a stuff.

Appreciate no-one wants trains cancelled but TOC should be fined for not providing an adequate service. Dont even get me started on CC and their heating - Im sure they know that a large proportion of their carriages just dont have working heating anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Got a friend who has Crohns disease. They could not have travelled on this train at all.

I guess all you'd have got from the TOC is a shrug of the shoulders....

1M00 this morning?
 

absolutelymilk

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Or perhaps AXC could arrange to empty the toilet tanks at a correct interval such that they don't get full?

I look forward to your model of exactly how much excrement you think the average passenger uses and how often they should empty the toilets.

If AXC emptied the tanks more often to avoid the (very rare it seems) occasion that they fill up, then it will cost more money. That can either come from fares or from subsidy, but has nothing to do with them not caring about passengers.
 

bolli

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Can't edit the previous post for some reason, but I recall reading that the toilets became available en-route/on further journeys, so possibly a fault rectified en-route.
 

Minilad

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People seem to be getting hung up on the full tank thing. On a XC 170 only the disabled toilet will lock OOU if the tank if full. The smaller toilet is a manual lock so cannot lock itself out. It's not even certain that it was locked out because of a full tank. It could be any one of a number of reasons.
 

185

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1M00 this morning?

Unforgivable for a train stabled away but in a fairly major city. I wouldn't mind, if the local train company was run by someone else it may be an issue, but it's all Arriva - XC and ATW. The 175s and other stock with CET tanks must go somewhere each night.

If someone could sell the issue to TOCs - full CET tank of poop = more weight = more fuel usage = more cost, bet they'd soon sort it. :P
 

MCR247

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Fair distance too. Can someone explain this to me?

Generally, three carriages each of which has a toilet. I assume there is no link? i.e. toilets are independent.

If so, then its pretty poor to have to run a train with all three carriages with faulty toilets. Having one faulty is believable but CCs excuse that they became faulty shortly before the journey does sound far fetched to me.

Their answer when I queried about what they planned to do - alert the train manager who would arrange a toilet stop. Not even sure how many stations enroute have toliets anyway.

Can imagine it being a long journey if a few people decided to get off for a ten minuter.

Another example of a 3rd class rail system where the TOC dont give a stuff.

Appreciate no-one wants trains cancelled but TOC should be fined for not providing an adequate service. Dont even get me started on CC and their heating - Im sure they know that a large proportion of their carriages just dont have working heating anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Got a friend who has Crohns disease. They could not have travelled on this train at all.

I guess all you'd have got from the TOC is a shrug of the shoulders....

If a thread was made asking why an XC run was cancelled and someone replied saying it was because there were no available toilets onboard, would you be ok with that? Or would you then slate XC taking the easy way out and say that they should've ran it with toilet breaks as required :roll:
 

6Gman

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TOCs to plan properly.

Easily said, but not so easy to achieve.

e.g. one toilet is put out of use by the (sometimes frankly bizarre) behaviour of passengers. Second toilet therefore fills at twice the usual rate. Set stables that night at a location without tank emptying capacity. How do you plan for that?
 

Bletchleyite

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Easily said, but not so easy to achieve.

e.g. one toilet is put out of use by the (sometimes frankly bizarre) behaviour of passengers. Second toilet therefore fills at twice the usual rate. Set stables that night at a location without tank emptying capacity. How do you plan for that?

Contract an on-call provider of toilet emptying services to conduct this at a suitable location should it be required.

Install toilet emptying facilities at more locations.

Arrange a prompt repair of the faulty toilet, thus allowing the other one to be used with its spare capacity.

It is all about planning and proper incident management.
 
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mark-h

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one toilet is put out of use by the (sometimes frankly bizarre) behaviour of passengers. Second toilet therefore fills at twice the usual rate.

The toilet may be working but not in a fit state for customers to use. Not all stations will have cleaning staff available if more is needed than a gentle clean.
 

DarloRich

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You could say that about anything at all that costs money to fix, though.

The point is that it is not acceptable for this to be happening regularly (yes, you, LM), therefore a solution has to be found such that it is a rarity.

How much more are you willing to add to your ticket? That is the simple calculation as the TOC wont do anything beyond what their franchise requires them to do.
 

Carlisle

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If AXC emptied the tanks more often to avoid the (very rare it seems) occasion that they fill up, then it will cost more money. That can either come from fares or from subsidy, but has nothing to do with them not caring about passengers.

You can download all sorts of current operations data from a moving train these days via the GSM system etc so I'm sure it not beyond current scientific practices to include a rough idea of the Level of the discharge tank if someone wished to invest in the required kit to do so
 
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ComUtoR

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You could say that about anything at all that costs money to fix, though.

Nobody is willing to pay for it and nobody is prepared to accept the fare rises it will cause. Nobody is willing to accept that a solution would be to cancel the service or to make sure that that a toilet must be working for a service to run.

I'm more than happy for NR/ROSCOS/TOCS to continually throw money at minor problems. Fortunately I don't pay for a ticket. Many others prefer the money to be better spent elsewhere than ensuring a toilet is working ok. Especially when it was offered to the passenger that they would make a toilet stop if required. The TOC offered help but clearly that wasn't enough.

I've seen toilet tanking facilities. It's not something I would consider to be feasible to be done on a call out. We have tanking facilities at my depot but are in no way able to tank every unit that gets birthed there. Your suggestions would cost millions. That is very hard to justify.
 
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Bletchleyite

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How much more are you willing to add to your ticket?

Tickets should be priced such that the basic service provided is adequate.

That is the simple calculation as the TOC wont do anything beyond what their franchise requires them to do.

Time toilet provision was added to the franchise agreements, then.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I'm more than happy for NR/ROSCOS/TOCS to continually throw money at minor problems.

It's a minor problem to an able bodied middle aged adult. To a child, an elderly person etc it is not a minor problem. Indeed, one could argue that giving it a low priority in that way was disability discrimination. Remember not every disability requires a wheelchair. Some disabilities require easy and frequent toilet access. Such people are often not mobile enough to quickly run out to the station bog or behind the station wall.

Actually this is a wider point - the lack of clean, safe (and often any at all) public toilets these days renders some people effectively housebound.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
I've seen toilet tanking facilities. It's not something I would consider to be feasible to be done on a call out. We have tanking facilities at my depot but are in no way able to tank every unit that gets birthed there. Your suggestions would cost millions. That is very hard to justify.

So some improvements to toilet and/or disposal design are necessary, then.
 
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ComUtoR

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It's a minor problem to an able bodied middle aged adult. To a child, an elderly person etc it is not a minor problem. Indeed, one could argue that giving it a low priority in that way was disability discrimination. Remember not every disability requires a wheelchair. Some disabilities require easy and frequent toilet access. Such people are often not mobile enough to quickly run out to the station bog or behind the station wall.

Actually this is a wider point - the lack of clean, safe (and often any at all) public toilets these days renders some people effectively housebound.

I am acutely aware of the issues with people who are affected by the need for a toilet. I am also a parent.

The wider point is that decent facilities should be provided. For the most part they are. There is not and can not be a provision for when things go wrong. If it is deemed that serious then the only real option is to not run the trains without a toilet and to ensure they are tanked before very single trip. That just is not feasible. Its the same with repair. The abuse they get from passengers is shocking. There is often no quick fix and they require serious attention. How do you allow for that ? You can't. The only thing you can do is remove the unit from service.

So some improvements to toilet and/or disposal design are necessary, then.

I would agree. Unfortunately some of the redesigns are pretty poor. Take the new 319 toilets. Due to the need to account for disabled passengers and wheelchair access we have lost a toilet and the new ones are awful.

Again, its about money still. How much is anyone prepared to pay to redesign and upgrade train toilets ? A few years ago we had a new unit introduced with the toilet removed. :/

What I can say is that on my TOC they do refill the water at stations. Its quite straightforward and is easily done if a unit is sitting on a station for an extended period. That resolves an issue with the toilets not working and going out of use due to the flush. It still wouldn't resolve any issues that occur en route.
 
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