No Trains on Boxing Day

[Horizon22]

I do wonder on what sort of service people would expect from Boxing Day? As with everything it's not black and white - perhaps NO service is too far, but I would say even a Sunday service is too much. Traffic on the roads is already substantially down between 25-31st compared to an average day.

Any planning for a Boxing Day service would need to be done probably at least 1-2 years out so that it is worked into engineering horizons.

It all comes down to expectations and demand; how many expect a Boxing Day train service and how many people want a Boxing Day trais service. And crucially how well staffed could this service be? It's all well and good promising a lot if it cannot be delivered. This certainly isn't the sort of thing to be knee-jerk about; you need the resources & staffing (e.g. stations, train crew, controllers, maintenance) to be able to run it and it will likely be an amended train plan of sorts.

 

[Carntyne]

The whole thread is a fallacy - 'no trains apart from London' when in fact there are hundreds, if not thousands running across loads of different part of the country.

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

I’d hope it would be volunteers only, at a suitably eye watering hourly rate!

Hmm. Would there be enough confidence that there'd be sufficient volunteers?

 

[Falcon1200]

I for one am celebrating my 40th Christmas of railway employment and haven’t worked a single 25th or 26th December in that time.

When I was a Booking Office Clerk I never worked Xmas or Boxing Day either, but when I became a Controller, and reached the appropriate grade, I worked plenty; If rostered to work, I worked. But I knew that when I took the job!

How are signalers sorted during Christmas/boxing day.

If there are no trains running Signallers can be booked off, although at large Signalling Centres one person might be on duty as a caretaker.

You can't stockpile transportation in any sensible way that isn't catastrophically costly in money and time to the user.

Of course you can; I intend to go shopping in Paisley and Glasgow, but due to the reduced (although not non-existent) transportation options, not to mention fewer retail opportunities, I will make the trip tomorrow (27th) instead of today (26th); At no additional cost to me, either financially or of time, whatsoever.

 

[M28361M]

Though I think only the bit controlled by Sandhills operates. Nothing south of Hooton and no Hunts X for instance.

Trains are running to South Parkway on the line which is controlled by Hunts Cross signal box south of Liverpool Central (I think the old St James/future “Baltic” station is the boundary).

Also I believe the area around Hooton station is controlled by Chester box so that would need to be open today. My understanding is that Merseyrail would like to run to Chester on Dec 26 but would need TFW to open the station.

 

[bramling]

I do wonder on what sort of service people would expect from Boxing Day? As with everything it's not black and white - perhaps NO service is too far, but I would say even a Sunday service is too much. Traffic on the roads is already substantially down between 25-31st compared to an average day.

Any planning for a Boxing Day service would need to be done probably at least 1-2 years out so that it is worked into engineering horizons.

It all comes down to expectations and demand; how many expect a Boxing Day train service and how many people want a Boxing Day trais service. And crucially how well staffed could this service be? It's all well and good promising a lot if it cannot be delivered. This certainly isn't the sort of thing to be knee-jerk about; you need the resources & staffing (e.g. stations, train crew, controllers, maintenance) to be able to run it and it will likely be an amended train plan of sorts.

The other issue is how many potential Boxing Day users will expect to pay cheap off-peak fares for their journey, despite the cost of providing it being disproportionately high?

Were a premium to be charged, or even just no cheap advances, then I can envisage a lot of moaning.

 

[6Gman]

This topic coming up here on Boxing day seems to be almost as much of a tradition as Turkey sandwiches!

It usually starts in November!

And quickly descends into a not very productive exchange.

 

[marks87]

It is this year.

No, Boxing Day is not “definitely” a bank holiday in Scotland. As things stand it will not be a bank holiday next year for example.

Since 22 May 2024, actually, as far as today is concerned.

Yes, but this is partly because Christmas Day and Good Friday are not bank holidays in England, whereas they are in Scotland.

I don’t want to be veer to far into what days are and aren’t bank holidays, but the Government thinks that:

1) Boxing Day 2025 is a bank Holiday in Scotland
2) Good Friday and Christmas Day are Bank Holidays everywhere.

UK bank holidays

Find out when bank holidays are in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland - including past and future bank holidays

www.gov.uk

 

[Qwerty133]

I do wonder on what sort of service people would expect from Boxing Day? As with everything it's not black and white - perhaps NO service is too far, but I would say even a Sunday service is too much. Traffic on the roads is already substantially down between 25-31st compared to an average day.

Any planning for a Boxing Day service would need to be done probably at least 1-2 years out so that it is worked into engineering horizons.

It all comes down to expectations and demand; how many expect a Boxing Day train service and how many people want a Boxing Day trais service. And crucially how well staffed could this service be? It's all well and good promising a lot if it cannot be delivered. This certainly isn't the sort of thing to be knee-jerk about; you need the resources & staffing (e.g. stations, train crew, controllers, maintenance) to be able to run it and it will likely be an amended train plan of sorts.

A Sunday service may be too much on some commuter lines in the south east but in most of the rest of the country anything less than a Sunday service would be pointless as it simply wouldn't give sufficient journey opportunities to be useful to the vast majority. I suspect the optimum service in terms of maximising customer utilisation at the lowest possible cost in most areas would be a Sunday frequency but with an earlier start and finish (in many areas Sunday services don't start until lunchtime but then run into late evening whereas on Boxing Day demand is likely to be concentrated in the handful of hours before and after lunch).

 

[PyrahnaRanger]

I can absolutely guarantee you that there will be plenty of whinging and whining amongst staff required to work in those industries.

Possibly, possibly not. When I was working in a company that supported a large clothing retailer known for it's "Boxing Day Sale!" there was plenty of competition for the job if sitting around hoping they'd need something, although a reasonable enhancement to wages helped with that.

My wife is a midwife, and there's no complaints about working Christmas or New Year from her or her colleagues, it's just what needs done, and without any enchantments above their normal bank holiday/overnight ones. And they all know they have to work one out the other, although the powers that be try and swap you which one you get each year, so we actually got Christmas day together - but no drinking as she's at work today.

Not necessarily 28 days though. Depends on the shift pattern . Eg if you do 12 hour and 4 on 4 off its 19.6 days leave a year and so on.

Yeah - the Mrs and her colleagues get bank holidays as extra days holiday to use as and when, as they don't have any choice on if they work them or not.

We are not other industries however. We have strong unionswho have long fought for our working conditions. I for one am celebrating my 40th Christmas of railway employment and haven’t worked a single 25th or 26th December in that time.

The railway seems to have a very strong union, and seems to be the last place where they are so active and powerful. I suspect there's a whole other debate about how and why that's the case, and if that's a good thing or not...

Yes... Primarily by not operating and this having a zero (or virtually zero) staffing level...

The businesses I used to support when doing retail PoS generally weren't open, or were normally staffed - some with even more than usual to deal with the ravening hordes!

Those that are working a job that will
Impact Xmas day, emergency services, public transport and the likes should definitely receive an enhanced rate.

I've just asked, the Mrs, who is a midwife, thinks it's standard Bank Holiday enhancement only for Christmas Day, plus any top ups, eg if it's a weekend, or night pay from 10PM until 6AM. Not a great uplift, but better than a kick in the teeth. Oh, and the best part is that unlike the A&E staff, women in labour tend not to be drunk, even if they do swear like troopers

 

[johncrossley]

Make it the same as Easter Sunday in my book.

You make a great point there. We don't have a reduced service on Easter Sunday compared to a normal Sunday (except for engineering work) even though major shops are closed by law. Arguably there is more reason to travel on Boxing Day than Easter Sunday, so the service should be at least as good.

 

[Horizon22]

I've just asked, the Mrs, who is a midwife, thinks it's standard Bank Holiday enhancement only for Christmas Day, plus any top ups, eg if it's a weekend, or night pay from 10PM until 6AM. Not a great uplift, but better than a kick in the teeth. Oh, and the best part is that unlike the A&E staff, women in labour tend not to be drunk, even if they do swear like troopers

Yes NHS staff tend to accept it is standard enhancements for Xmas/NY but I imagine that's historical because the emergency services like the NHS have always had to work 365/24/7. Where it is not a precedent or culturally the norm, like the railways there may be need for extra incentive to some extent.

As an aside, statistically there are also fewer babies born between 25-28th too, so could be worse!

 

[TT-ONR-NRN]

The whole thread is a fallacy - 'no trains apart from London' when in fact there are hundreds, if not thousands running across loads of different part of the country.

In fact, I'd say London's getting a rougher deal than several other parts of the UK.

 

[dk1]

Seems strange not to serve Hoylake when the level crossing will need working for a start. I was on a New Brighton train about an hour ago but unfortunately the Mersey estuary has been fogbound today, so there won’t be the people going out for some fresh air.

Just catching up with racing from Aintree and it’s quite hilarious. Such a pea souper that thank goodness for the commentary as couldn’t see much of it Even the commentator used “I think” a few times.

 

[jamesst]

Trains are running to South Parkway on the line which is controlled by Hunts Cross signal box south of Liverpool Central (I think the old St James/future “Baltic” station is the boundary).

Also I believe the area around Hooton station is controlled by Chester box so that would need to be open today. My understanding is that Merseyrail would like to run to Chester on Dec 26 but would need TFW to open the station.

Yep, Sandhills, Hunts Cross and Chester signallers are in.
Ellesmere Port isn't so nothing can run there and Tfw won't staff Chester station so nothing can run there.

 

[Taunton]

If it's true that "there's no demand" then that's a perfectly sound reason to not provide a service on public holidays, Sundays etc.

I can assure you that in London today both the Underground and the DLR seemed significantly busier than usual at weekends. Notably however the Elizabeth Line, which TfL loves to portray in other circumstances as one of its own, was resolutely shut across Central London.

For some reason the Heathrow Express did not run its mainstream operation, but did run a double shuttle between the Heathrow terminals, despite the Underground also operating between the same terminals.

It does make you realise the self-interest when the railway industry, and/or its supporters (including on here), regularly state that domestic air services should be phased out and the travellers sent to the railway, while today the many flights from Scotland to London are running, in fact apparently sold out, while the railway cannot be bothered to provide any service.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

And those that aren’t in safety critical roles can probably just rock up half asleep and with a hangover with no question being asked, so at least the Christmas Day wasn’t interrupted

Not in my job I can't. But then we don't have to work Christmas and Boxing Day (although I'm sure this will come in time for my younger colleagues)

Plenty of purely profit making businesses also seem to be closed today based on my walk up and down a local high street just now…

Quite the opposite in my local high street when almost every shop was open

I do wonder on what sort of service people would expect from Boxing Day? As with everything it's not black and white - perhaps NO service is too far, but I would say even a Sunday service is too much. Traffic on the roads is already substantially down between 25-31st compared to an average day.

I would be happy for a basic 1tph which is what my line gets anyway for most of the day and at weekends. Lots of people want to go out on Boxing Day nowadays and like me, have had to rely on the car.

 

[yorksrob]

Because rail receives a massive subsidy, largely paid by people who use trains rarely or never, on the basis that it is an essential public service.

Actually the large proportion of population who use trains on a fairly frequent basis also contribute a large proportion of state subsidy to the railway.

 

[Clarence Yard]

It isn’t a case of the industry “not being bothered” but rather central government not willing to stump up the costs of doing so.

In the case of OA, they wouldn’t mind operating on Boxing Day but there are two big obstacles. The first is getting the access, given that Boxing Day often presents engineers with a free day to do some work and the second is the cost. NR operates with a skeleton staff on Boxing Day and if you want to turn part of it back to a working railway, you have to pay them for all the extra staff time.

For OA, that blows the finances of a Boxing Day operation completely. Only if the railway is open to and used by all users does it make financial sense. But for DfT operators it probably isn’t a net earner anyway, which is why the DfT remains hostile to expanding Boxing Day operations.

 

[camflyer]

It’s a public service, rather than a purely profit making business. You’ll find many other services aren’t available on Boxing Day either.

If it was a public service then perhaps if would be run for the benefit of the public rather than the convenience of the staff.

 

[RailExplorer]

As a driver, who does actually value Christmas day and Boxing Day off... I do however think we should run a Sunday service on both days (using volunteer drivers).

You would need to volunteer about 2-3 months in advance, and the timetable would be constructed around actual availability of traincrew.

It is ridiculous we shut the network fully down for 2 days.

 

[mikeb42]

Of course you can; I intend to go shopping in Paisley and Glasgow, but due to the reduced (although not non-existent) transportation options, not to mention fewer retail opportunities, I will make the trip tomorrow (27th) instead of today (26th); At no additional cost to me, either financially or of time, whatsoever.

So to summarise, you aren't bothered about doing x today and also seemingly are free to do it tomorrow wholly at your own discretion.

That's you in a Venn diagram in the circle with all the people with no particular desire to go anywhere today which has no intersection with that containing all the people who did have a specific desire to go somewhere today... Erm...

The people who did want or need to go somewhere today, what with being in work tomorrow for example, are in a different position. Anywhere they wanted to be today they'd have had to travel 2 days ago, stay 2 nights in a hotel over Christmas and then use a magic carpet* to get home tonight. Sounds pretty costly of time and money.

*Or they could use an Uber to go 120 miles at the cost of the GDP of a small country.

Or they could just do what any sensible person who is able to does, and get a car, even if they'd rather not. But it's still really important they hand over a non-trivial amount of taxation to pay for the railway which once again shows no interest in meeting their requirements...

 

[Sly Old Fox]

I can assure you that in London today both the Underground and the DLR seemed significantly busier than usual at weekends. Notably however the Elizabeth Line, which TfL loves to portray in other circumstances as one of its own, was resolutely shut across Central London.

For some reason the Heathrow Express did not run its mainstream operation, but did run a double shuttle between the Heathrow terminals, despite the Underground also operating between the same terminals.

There’s just a little engineering project going on at Old Oak Common that means there is no access to Paddington from Heathrow (until Monday!), which may have something to do with Heathrow Express not running to London today.

If they wanted me to work Boxing Day I would. I think there should be a service. But nobody has ever suggested it so *shrug*

 

[JonathanH]

It is ridiculous we shut the network fully down for 2 days.

If people genuinely needed to get back home from family to go to work on the 27th then perhaps there might be some argument for that position, but the reality is that workers across many sectors shut up shop before Christmas Day and don't come back until the New Year. In general, the Boxing Day demand, where there is any, is really about leisure demand. There may be some economic justification for that but double standards about expecting transport workers to give up their break to give those on a longer break something to do on a bank holiday is a bit unfair.

 

[tspaul26]

Gov.uk seems to think it is.

UK bank holidays

Find out when bank holidays are in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland - including past and future bank holidays

www.gov.uk

Extract...

I don’t want to be veer to far into what days are and aren’t bank holidays, but the Government thinks that:

1) Boxing Day 2025 is a bank Holiday in Scotland
2) Good Friday and Christmas Day are Bank Holidays everywhere.

UK bank holidays

Find out when bank holidays are in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland - including past and future bank holidays

www.gov.uk

Boxing Day is not automatically a bank holiday in Scotland. It has to be appointed by royal proclamation. No such proclamation has been promulgated for 2025 (yet - it is generally done round about May).

As to Christmas Day and Good Friday, these are only bank holidays in Scotland. Elsewhere in the United Kingdom they are public holidays (which are legally distinct).

 

[RailExplorer]

If people genuinely needed to get back home from family to go to work on the 27th then perhaps there might be some argument for that position, but the reality is that workers across many sectors shut up shop before Christmas Day and don't come back until the New Year. In general, the Boxing Day demand, where there is any, is really about leisure demand. There may be some economic justification for that but double standards about expecting transport workers to give up their break to give those on a longer break something to do on a bank holiday is a bit unfair.

That's why I said to run a service on a 100% voluntary basis. My route serves Heathrow Airport. Heathrow Airport is open and that's very poor not to provide a public transport service to a major international airport.

 

[JonathanH]

That's why I said to run a service on a 100% voluntary basis. My route serves Heathrow Airport. Heathrow Airport is open and that's very poor not to provide a public transport service to a major international airport.

Yes, but the point I think I am trying to convey is how much of the travel that can be made on 26 December can simply be made on 27 December instead?

As I think people upthread have indicated if there aren't enough volunteers a difficult situation emerges.

 

[AlterEgo]

Why should we come to work on Boxing Day and get abused, spoken to like trash and then have to deal with the inevitable disruption etc? Then there will be football matches which we have to deal with fallout from that with limited support.

What is different about Boxing Day compared to any other bank holiday? This is a dreadful way to speak about your customers regardless of whether or not you would volunteer to work the day for a financial incentive.

This comes across more like general job-hating than anything else. There are loads of good and nice customers on the railway too; in fact the overwhelming majority of people are.

The other issue is how many potential Boxing Day users will expect to pay cheap off-peak fares for their journey, despite the cost of providing it being disproportionately high?

You could make this argument against any Sunday travel, especially in places where staff are being paid overtime to work the service. That the railway hasn’t, in 30 years, moved to bring Sundays inside the working week in many areas isn’t the passenger’s concern. Nor are fares generally reflective of the “cost of providing the service”. And they shouldn’t be; railways are a utility and a public good.

 

[Class 317]

Yes, but the point I think I am trying to convey is how much of the travel that can be made on 26 December can simply be made on 27 December instead?

As I think people upthread have indicated if there aren't enough volunteers a difficult situation emerges.

Well I seem to remember reading before Christmas that roughly 35% of people work on the 27/12 which sounds like a reasonable ball park figure based on those at my running club. This is quite a bit of essential travel.

I'd also use it to travel to see family quickly on the years I'm working nights through Christmas like this year. Yes I accept this is part of the job for me but depending on shifts not having a transport option on boxing day does limit my options to zero.

A reduced Sunday service on key routes from around 9am to 7pm or so would seem to be sufficient.

 

[Nippy]

How are signalers sorted during Christmas/boxing day. Theirs still a few engineering trains running on lines with no passenger trains. Are they ran with reduced staffing or is it an ordinary day?

Signallers in England and Wales get 300% or 200% plus Comp Day. Scotland is 250% or 150% plus comp day. If it’s a rest day work then add 25% to the above. Signallers will normally be expected to work if it is their booked shift and they are required in. That said, where I work there will normally be no shortage of volunteers to cover a shift. At Wembley we had one SSM and three signallers in for Christmas Day, Night and Boxing Day shift. Full shift of one SSM and six signallers in from Boxing Day Night Shift.