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No trains to call at Altnabreac for the foreseeable future

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sjm77

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You cannot infer this from "No Report".
Well if it has travelled from Wick/Thurso to Forsinard then in this instance you can as there is no other route! However, I do take your point though in the situations when services are diverted off their booked route and then rejoin it. For example, if a Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central service is diverted via Newton-le-Willows, then once the train rejoins the booked route at Castlefield junction then all the timing points via Warrington Central show 'No report'.
 
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mathstrains19

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In this case you still can't infer it from no report, as the signalling system in use on the line will likely only have reports at token exchange points, which Altnabreac is not.
 

louis97

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Well if it has travelled from Wick/Thurso to Forsinard then in this instance you can as there is no other route!
Please review the post I was replying to... You cannot infer the train did not stop from a "No Report".
 

brad465

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I find it a bit amusing that this thread has more than double the number of posts in it than passengers this station received in a given year with a normal service.
 

InkyScrolls

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Well if it has travelled from Wick/Thurso to Forsinard then in this instance you can as there is no other route! However, I do take your point though in the situations when services are diverted off their booked route and then rejoin it. For example, if a Liverpool to Manchester via Warrington Central service is diverted via Newton-le-Willows, then once the train rejoins the booked route at Castlefield junction then all the timing points via Warrington Central show 'No report'.
Incorrect. Altnabreac is not a compulsory timing point.
 

miami

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For non-facebookers there is also a summary of the hearing in the comment pinned to this Youtube video.

This one?


COURT SUMMARY BY STEPHEN SCANDRETT
Options Hearing - 3rd April 2024
Party litigants - Howe and Appleby.
Apology from Appleby regarding their conduct at the last hearing on 7th Februar 2025.
Ms Soldani appearing for the Defenders.
Various matters calling today;
Three motions submitted by Ms Howe;
1/ summary decree
2/ recusal of Sheriff
3/ interim interdict
The Defender is neutral in respect of the recusal motion which was pursued by M Howe on various grounds but ultimately declined by Sheriff Wilson. Ms Soldani onfirmed that the Defenders own the level crossing.
Ms Howe confirmed that the current matters relate to the Title registered with egisters of Scotland, which include the Solum ownership of an extended area of and, including the former station platform, the land in which the defenders hav built the path, and includes the private level crossing. The alleged criminal harges took place at the level crossing Ms Howe confirmed.
The interim interdict requested by Ms Howe was intended to allow more time to c nsider matters. Ms Soldani had no objections to that motion being continued.
Sheriff Wilson then addressed the two remaining matters;
1/ Whether the defenders have satisfactorily carried out the survey which they ad wished to carry out.
2/ A Summary Decree submitted by Ms Howe.
The Summary Decree motion was lodged prematurely, and Ms Howe requested time to be allowed to conduct a survey into Mr Appleby’s Solum Ownership and to produce a plan, which would constitute ‘expert evidence’. Also a surveyor would be requ red to conduct a survey of the boundaries of the 1996 Notice of Title which the defendants are relying upon.
Extension of the adjustment period of eight weeks was therefore requested by Ms Howe.
Matters could then proceed to Proof.
Ms Howe then withdrew her Summary Decree motion upon advice from Sheriff Wilson
Ms Soldani was asked regarding the eight week extension, and she confirmed that she had no difficulty with a continuation, however she remained concerned as to what happens in the meantime. She said that the pursuers were acting as if deci ions in their favour had been decided when in fact they had not been.
ScotRail intend to resume services from the station from this weekend. To do th s pedestrians require access to and from the station. The new path was construc ed to try and defuse the current situation. The track on the other hand, is sub ect to a public right of way.
The Court’s position is thus - pedestrians have a choice of going straight on a ter the cattle grid or to turn right and use the new path. The new path is owne wholly by the defender, Ms Soldani added. There is a vehicular right of way, b t for the moment it would be for pedestrians only.
Ms Howe considered that the land in dispute has already been decided by the def nders. She also considered further wrong-doing by the defender last weekend. Wo ks were undertaken on the former station platform and ScotRail has also access he platform by climbing over the chain.
The Court should decide true ownership but the defender has behaved in a manner which assumes that the defender owns the land in question added Ms Soldani.
The side gate is owned by Mr Appleby stated Ms Howe and that is the route pedes rians ned to use. She confirmed that the couple dispute the location of the pub ic right of way.
Sheriff Wilson continued to address pedestrian access, public access on foot. H asked Ms Howe what that foot access would look like. Sheriff Wilson said that e did not wish to impose something but rather get an agreement.
Mr Appleby stated that while he agrees that there is a footpath somewhere here, its exact position is uncertain. New ‘expert evidence’ would possible help to a dress that issue.
Sheriff Wilson confirmed that a public right of way can go over private land al over Scotland. He added that he was trying to avoid unnecessary confrontation.
Ms Howe stated that whilst she agrees that a public path and right of way does xist the position is not known and a survey is required to establish this.
Mr Appleby confirmed that the side gate is unlocked. Ms Howe stated that the ne footpath was constructed upon disputed land. She added that it would be approp iate to delay the opening of the station until the end of the procedures.
Mr Appleby confirmed that the couple would prefer access by pedestrians was to se the traditional right of way. Ms Howe added that there was never any need to build a new path.
Sheriff Wilson asked the couple for an undertaking that they would not stop ped strian access by a member of the public over the established right of way to th railway platform.
Mr Appleby stated that the couple had always done this and that they welcome ev ryone at the station and to come in for a cup of tea!
Ms Soldani had two concerns - the couple have consistently refused access to th defender and ScotRail. The Sheriff said that these issues will be decided in c urt but the immediate problem has been addressed, for people getting on or off he train.
Ms Howe stated that a public right of way did not include commercial use.
Currently members of the public can access the couple’s driveway to access the latform.
Ms Soldani confirmed that the Network Rail Survey has been carried out, but the pursuers did try to restrict the defenders access, but the surveyor was able to get enough data to complete the survey.
The issue of expenses were raised by Ms Soldani however Sheriff Wilson stated t at these matters would only be addressed upon the conclusion of the case.
Continued for eight weeks for Adjustments - 29th May 2025 at 2.15pm and the Hea ing concluded.
 

Rab Smith

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I've just watched their new video and they really are digging in regards to this issue. Fair play to them but they are taking on NWR who themselves have a whole legal department that deals with this type of land dispute. The little guy very seldom wins in these situations and I think NWR will just grind them down with legal loopholes, jargon and more importantly, cost.
It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.
 

YorkshireBear

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I've just watched their new video and they really are digging in regards to this issue. Fair play to them but they are taking on NWR who themselves have a whole legal department that deals with this type of land dispute. The little guy very seldom wins in these situations and I think NWR will just grind them down with legal loopholes, jargon and more importantly, cost.
It'll be interesting to see how this pans out.
The thing is, is it actually worth NR investing that money for very limited if any financial benefit?
 

Jan Mayen

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The thing is, is it actually worth NR investing that money for very limited if any financial benefit?
I've no idea of the costs, but it may be the case they want to dissuade anyone else from trying it on.

Edit: Any Forum members git on or off at Altnbreac since it reopened?
 
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I've just watched it too, they could honestly start an argument in an empty room. Looks like Scotrail were there installing help point etc in time for resumed service.
 

Rab Smith

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The thing is, is it actually worth NR investing that money for very limited if any financial benefit?
Isn't there a complex procedure in closing a station? For a start, the Scottish Government probably wouldn't allow it and the costs to do so would possibly be far greater than the cost of this one dispute.
Or win because they (NWR) are right? The little guy is not always right.
Besides The access issue, their argument seems to be that they have proof they own the Station platform. I'd be very surprised if that was the case.
It wouldn't be the first time NWR try to bully people into giving up access to enter the infrastructure.
The Land Registry input for the property should really be able to clear things up.
 

leightonbd

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When I had some dealings around land registration in Scotland a few years ago, I learned two things: (a) that the registers of Scotland are incomplete (only about 70% of the land is registered) and (b) that the registrations made can be inaccurate: even recent ones like new housing. Marginally, maybe, but a miss is as good as a mile until resolved. Also a third thing (c): some of the registrations are ancient, and difficult to interpret (I used to describe them as ‘in the Gothic script’ to illustrate the point).

What does this add? It suggests to me that the occupiers may think they have a case, based on poor drawings in the registers, or some other poor record. That may not be the correct interpretation (and I’m not sure it’s a winning argument anyway) but I share these thoughts in the hope of casting a little light.

The value add would be for someone to say ‘when title is unclear or there is a situation where the register is clearly incorrect’ what the Court’s practice is. I suspect it would come back to ‘what was meant at the time’ but I’m no lawyer.
 

Elwyn

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Scotland introduced a land registration system around 2000. Purchases since then are on the Scottish Land registers. Those before that are not and Sasine records are used to determine ownership. My understanding from reading posts on another link is that the couple bought the property after the new system started and that the Land Register map does not include the areas they believe they own. But as has been said mistakes get made and I am certainly not an expert on Scottish land law. This is for the Courts to resolve, which is what is happening.

I don’t think the owners of the former station house want to prevent folk from accessing the station. Instead I think they are looking for payment from National Rail for public access. A comment I found interesting in the court report was the Sheriff pointing out that even if they do own the disputed land, if there’s a right of way across it, the public would be entitled to access. (And presumably no payment would be due). Perhaps folk have been using that path for 150 years to get to the station. Would that create a right of way? Don’t know.

The couple asked the Sheriff to recuse himself. This is presumably because they also face criminal charges which are to be heard in Wick Sheriff Court in June. Presumably he will be hearing their criminal case as well as this civil case. Hence the application for him to recuse himself. (Potential conflict of interest). We shouldn’t discuss the merits of the criminal case as it’s sub judice.
 
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Ashley Hill

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Looks like Scotrail were there installing help point etc in time for resumed service
I’d have gone for an auto announcer. Fast train approaching,see it say it sorted etc. That would kick the hornets nest :D
This is a very interesting case and possibly one without precedent, I hope the outcome is successful for all parties.
 

tspaul26

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Isn't there a complex procedure in closing a station?
It’s not especially complex.
the costs to do so would possibly be far greater than the cost of this one dispute.
Not necessarily.
The Land Registry input for the property should really be able to clear things up.
The Land Registry will have no input because the subjects are in Scotland.
The value add would be for someone to say ‘when title is unclear or there is a situation where the register is clearly incorrect’ what the Court’s practice is.
If the register is incorrect then there is a statutory process for rectification.
Scotland introduced a land registration system around 2000.
Incorrect, I’m afraid. The land register first started to accept registrations in 1981, but there are also a number of other older registers for certain kinds of land.
Purchases since then are on the Land registers.
Also incorrect: for this part of Scotland the operational date is 1 April 2003, but other areas will vary.

The GRS is also still operational for certain limited purposes.
Perhaps folk have been using that path for 150 years to get to the station. Would that create a right of way?
In theory, yes, it could.

The couple asked the Sheriff to recuse himself. This is presumably because they also face criminal charges which are to be heard in Wick Sheriff Court in June. Presumably he will be hearing their criminal case as well as this civil case.
Yes, the criminal matter is now proceeding by way of complaint rather than indictment so it will be tried by the sheriff alone.
Hence the application for him to recuse himself. (Potential conflict of interest).
Failed motion for recusal. There is no conflict of interest.
 

61653 HTAFC

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I’d have gone for an auto announcer. Fast train approaching,see it say it sorted etc. That would kick the hornets nest :D
This is a very interesting case and possibly one without precedent, I hope the outcome is successful for all parties.
Stick whistle boards up about 20m from each end of the platform for good measure! :lol:

I only hope the outcome is successful for the railway...
 

kkong

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The thing is, is it actually worth NR investing that money for very limited if any financial benefit?

I thought that at one point they also claimed to own the land the track was on (perhaps they still do).

NR can't let that go unchallenged.
 

Elwyn

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I thought that at one point they also claimed to own the land the track was on (perhaps they still do).

NR can't let that go unchallenged.

Yes that is my interpretation of what they claim. There is a link somewhere on this site with a map from the Scottish Land Register showing the land recorded as owned by this couple. It does not seem to include the disputed land.

The facts will hopefully be resolved by the Sheriff court in a month or two but it seems unlikely/surprising to me that when selling the former station house, National Rail would have included an operational platform and the solum of the operational railway in the transaction. But stranger things have been known.
 

Recessio

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...but it seems unlikely/surprising to me that when selling the former station house, National Rail would have included an operational platform and the solum of the operational railway in the transaction. But stranger things have been known.
It is not entirely unheard of for mistakes to have been made. When British Rail was privatised, there was a few areas where operational land wasnt transferred that was meant to be, but instead ended up in BRB (Residuary) Ltd. A list of land/property that was eventually transferred, mostly to Network Rail, in 2013 is available online. Also famously there was some confusion over the NR/TfL boundary near Wimbledon that took decades to get resolved, and led to unmaintained track causing a derailment.
 
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d70g

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There’s probably a difference between a land ownership dispute (which I don't care about), and the fact that a train station (even one not much used) was closed for a significant amount of time.
 

Bletchleyite

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There’s probably a difference between a land ownership dispute (which I don't care about), and the fact that a train station (even one not much used) was closed for a significant amount of time.

I think it is important Network Rail doesn't give in to intimidation. Were it not for that intimidation, I would struggle to oppose the closure of Altnabreac, but unless they are found to be correct (unlikely) it is worth spending money to avoid giving in to bullies and setting a precedent that if you don't like the railway near your house you can just shout until it's closed. Probably even if they are correct given their conduct.
 

d70g

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I think it is important Network Rail doesn't give in to intimidation. Were it not for that intimidation, I would struggle to oppose the closure of Altnabreac, but unless they are found to be correct (unlikely) it is worth spending money to avoid giving in to bullies and setting a precedent that if you don't like the railway near your house you can just shout until it's closed. Probably even if they are correct given their conduct.
Agreed
 

Elwyn

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I don’t think the owners of Station House have ever said they object to the railway (they could hardly claim to have been unaware of it when they bought the property) more I think they are hoping to earn some income if they own the land. Though I suspect they will have spent far more in legal fees than they will ever earn from that potential income source.
 

norbitonflyer

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I find it difficult to follow their arguments as they so often drift into accusations against the BTP, who are presumably only there to keep order after one side or the other has compained of previous threatening behaviour.

But as this is Scotland there is a presumed "right to roam" so there can be little doubt that the public can walk across their land (if it is railway property that is an exception, but the local owners claim it is not, and NR allow public access to stations, so the public should have access to and on the platform, whoever owns it).

The dispute seems to be about NR doing work on "their" platform, and/or using their drive for access to it.

If the platform is actually their property as they claim, NR would indeed need their permissiion to do work on it such as erecting a shelter, or installing help points or the new request-stop buttons (including laying cables etc), unless it was an emergency (eg to stop the platform collapsing onto the track). As I understand it most lineside properties have covenants in place to allow NR access in such cases (and for example to lop overhanging vegetation)

As for access, they seem to draw a distinction between the use of a right of way for leisure purposes and for commercial purposes, although I'm not sure the law makes such a distinction - what if you are taking the train for a business trip?
 
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Buzby

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I'm not sure the law makes such a distinction - what if you are taking the train for a business trip?
That wouldn’t be relevant to their complaint. As I read it, their objection concerned ‘commercial’ access of which apart from possible forestry, only leaves NR and they would wish to monetise this wayleave for financial gain - perhaps to install a weather shelter, help point or PA system. This could be achieved with a special train (unlikely) or delivery of the components on a timetabled service. I found watching the Ealing comedy ‘Passport to Pimlico’ has many similarities!
 

Bletchleyite

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That wouldn’t be relevant to their complaint. As I read it, their objection concerned ‘commercial’ access of which apart from possible forestry, only leaves NR and they would wish to monetise this wayleave for financial gain - perhaps to install a weather shelter, help point or PA system. This could be achieved with a special train (unlikely) or delivery of the components on a timetabled service. I found watching the Ealing comedy ‘Passport to Pimlico’ has many similarities!

It does surprise me that Network Rail didn't consider bringing materials/employees in by train and thus blowing a quick raspberry over the fence.
 

Horizon22

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I've no idea of the costs, but it may be the case they want to dissuade anyone else from trying it on.

Edit: Any Forum members git on or off at Altnbreac since it reopened?

Yes I imagine there’s some precedent issue here and that NR can’t be seen to back down like this to a difficult landowner on a point of principle and it could otherwise open other potential issues around the country. Even if these landowners are especially difficult.
 

dgl

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It does surprise me that Network Rail didn't consider bringing materials/employees in by train and thus blowing a quick raspberry over the fence.
I think they might have tried but the hostilities made it unsafe in the end.
 
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