Non acceptance of tickets on GatEx (Twitter discussion)

Discussion in 'Fares Advice & Policy' started by bakerstreet, 6 Jun 2018.

  1. bakerstreet

    bakerstreet Member

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  3. superalbs

    superalbs Established Member

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    Just spoke to them on BBC Radio Sussex about it. Hopefully that'll spark a change.
     
  4. Joe Paxton

    Joe Paxton Established Member

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    The more likely change is that one of the results of the current ticketing review will be to give these 'brand-only' tickets a solid legal footing.
     
  5. mallard

    mallard Established Member

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    Surely by doing that they'd be admitting that there was no legal footing before and therefore open up the rail industry to legal action from people who have been mis-sold more expensive tickets or denied travel previously...?
     
  6. Bletchleyite

    Bletchleyite Veteran Member

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    They already will refund additional ticket purchases where people were charged for this reason, so it wouldn't go to Court.
     
  7. marshmallow

    marshmallow Member

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    What is the legal position on Oyster users being charged more for using the Gatwick Express than other services?
     
  8. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    If it's within what the terms and conditions of Oyster dictate, then I see no reason why there's anything legally wrong with it. I'm not 'au fait' enough with the Oyster terms to know whether it's in there, but I'd have thought it simply references a list of fares given by TfL, or their Single Fare Finder.

    Obviously the problem with not allowing passengers who already have valid paper tickets (e.g. Thameslink/Southern only) to use them on GX is that neither the NRCoT nor the TSA have any capacity for there to be 'discrimination' between train companies' brands, only between legally separate train companies. Refusing such tickets or demanding extra amounts is therefore a breach of contract. And in certain cases such refusals or demands could constitute a criminal offence.
     
  9. DavidGrain

    DavidGrain Member

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    I have an opposite situation with a Southern ticket being refused at Victoria by the barrier gate and by two railmen. Finally the argument was settled by a third railman who came across and advised me to go to the next platform as Gatwick Express would accept my ticket. Apparently my 'Anytime' ticket was not valid until after 9.30 on Southern trains to Gatwick Airport but was valid on Gatwick Express. All this because I had bought my ticket from Southern using a senior railcard.

    I am going to Gatwick Airport next week and am not sure what ticket I should now buy.
     
  10. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    The refusal might be correct, depending on which ticket you had.
     
  11. DavidGrain

    DavidGrain Member

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    My point is that the ticket said 'Anytime' it did not say 'Anytime after 9.30'. I bought it on a Southern website to travel on a Southern route.
     
  12. Wallsendmag

    Wallsendmag Established Member

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    It’s your Railcard that carries the restriction in this case.
     
  13. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    Unfortunately the issue is not to do with the ticket itself, it's to do with the fact that you're using a Senior Railcard.

    You can't use Senior Railcard discounted tickets if you're making a journey entirely within the former Network SouthEast area (see map) before the relevant Off-Peak or Off-Peak Day tickets become valid. On most routes, that's 09:30.

    However, IIRC this rule doesn't apply to travel on Gatwick Express, since, despite the journey being entirely within the Network SouthEast area, it was regarded as an Intercity TOC back in BR days and hence the rule does not apply to their services. I think that may be why you were allowed to use the ticket on GX.

    Did you originally buy your ticket in conjunction with an itinerary involving the Southern train which you attempted to take?
     
  14. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    See the T&Cs of your railcard

     
  15. DavidGrain

    DavidGrain Member

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    Thanks for your comments. As someone who lives in the West Midlands, I have little to do with the conditions relating to the former NSE. Also that day I was travelling from Birmingham and had bought separate tickets Birmingham-Euston and Victoria-Gatwick and used my Oystercard on the Underground. The Birmingham-Euston ticket was an Advance but I had bought an Anytime ticket for Victoria-Gatwick as I did not know what time I would reach Victoria. I still make the point that a ticket marked 'Anytime' should mean anytime and as it was valid one day only it could have said 'after 9.30'
     
  16. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    In that case, since Condition 14.1 of the National Rail Conditions of Travel state that:
    your journey was from Birmingham to Gatwick, and hence did not therefore not both start and end within the Network SouthEast area. As a result, had you mentioned your other ticket(s) and the resultant full extent of your journey, you should have been allowed to use your Anytime ticket on any Southern or other valid service you wanted to. (Whether you would have had this right honoured is an entirely different question!)

    As an aside for next time - it's possible to get reasonably priced Advances all the way from Birmingham through to Gatwick and as long as you are at the station in time for your first train in your itinerary, you are perfectly allowed to take later-than-booked trains there or later on in the journey if you experience delays or cancellations which prevent you from travelling in line with your booked itinerary.

    In a number of cases a combination of tickets will be cheaper than a through Advance, especially if you can accept a slower journey involving travel via Kensington Olympia or with the stopping West Midlands Trains service. Accredited/'official' sites such as www.trainsplit.com are able to suggest such options and enable their booking all at once.
     
  17. furlong

    furlong Established Member

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    I'd agree though that there is a legitimate question of enforceability when the ticket contains misleading information like 'Anytime' and obscure restrictions are hidden in small print that was more than likely not explained to you at the time of ticket purchase as they should have been. It would be interesting to see some test cases. (If the ticket cannot be used at 'Any time' then it should have a different name. Simple!)
     
  18. Hadders

    Hadders Established Member

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    I disagree with this. If you use a combination of tickets for a journey then the individual ticket restrictions still apply.

    If I make a journey from London to Birmingham using a combination of London-Milton Keynes and Milton Keynes-Birmingham tickets then the restrictions applying to these individual still apply.

    The combination does not take on the restrictions of a London - Birmingham ticket.
     
  19. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    Indeed, however the Railcard terms refer to the journey being made, not the origin and destination of the ticket(s) held. The tickets each keep their own restrictions, but merely in this case the restrictions on the London-Gatwick tickets don't apply because the journey starts outside the former NSE area.
     
  20. OwlMan

    OwlMan Established Member

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    They do not, see below- they refer to ticket. There is no mention of journey in the relevant clause of the T&Cs

    .
     
    Last edited: 13 Jun 2018
  21. Indigo2

    Indigo2 Established Member

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    I disagree; they don't apply because they have never applied to Victoria to Gatwick journeys on Gatwick Express, and as it seems at present restrictions are being officially relaxed between the various GTR brandnames, they should also not be applying to journeys from Victoria to Gatwick on Southern.
     
  22. ForTheLoveOf

    ForTheLoveOf Established Member

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    Well, all three of these things ;)
     
  23. bakerstreet

    bakerstreet Member

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    Here’s an interest thread. Poster wants to claim delay repay on a GatEx train. Guess which website GatEx suggests is used.

    https://twitter.com/busandtrainuser/status/1009892565682933765
     
    Last edited by a moderator: 21 Jun 2018
  24. Haywain

    Haywain Established Member

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    What is the source of this? I can see nothing in the railcard terms & conditions to back this up.
     
  25. yorkie

    yorkie Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    The source of which part of the post?

    Edit: I think you are not questioning that "ticket acceptance" is in place, but the Railcard easement.

    The internal KowledgeBase states that between GTW & VIC Senior Railcards can be used on
    This is implemented in all booking engines.

    However I would not be at all surprised if some GTR staff at Victoria & Gatwick are unaware of this; the training provided by the company is abysmal (but is consistent with the standards I have learnt to expect)
     
    Last edited: 21 Jun 2018
  26. Warwick

    Warwick On Moderation

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    On the naughty step again.
    A simple "Railcard Conditions" printed on the ticket would have most likely helped.
     
  27. Clip

    Clip On Moderation

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    the same conditions they agreed to when taking out the railcard yes?
     

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