Non-electrified Crossovers

Legolash2o

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I've seen a few places where a crossover in NESA (National Electronic Sectional Appendix) is not electrified.

Are electric trains still allowed to use them? Do they have to lower their pantograph? Why wouldn't they be electrified?
 
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D365

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Context is needed. Where are these crossovers? Do they see use by passenger stock, or are they used by freight or plant to access a siding.
 

a_c_skinner

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I agree with GRALISTAIR. For the marginal costs it is incredibly short sighted. Some of the ECML crossovers north of Alnmouth are like this and that seems (amongst other things) to have ended any hope of using EMUs on local trains as they cannot be turned back.
 

zwk500

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I've seen a few places where a crossover in NESA (National Electronic Sectional Appendix) is not electrified.

Are electric trains still allowed to use them? Do they have to lower their pantograph?
Electric trains are generally not allowed to use them, as the gap between opposing OLE is enough for the pan to spring up and risk taking the wire out of the 2nd track. Similar issues with 3rd rail trains being gapped usually mean they're not allowed to use them. I suspect that in an emergency and with a sufficiently long train some form of emergency working could be made where each pan is dropped and raised in succession but I've never heard of it happening.
Why wouldn't they be electrified?
These crossovers generally only lead to non-electrified track, or are in places where electric trains would not reverse unless emergency working was needed. The additional cable run for the crossover is still a maintenance issue, even if the cost is on the face of it marginal, and it also saves on providing shunt movements in the interlocking. It's very possible these crossovers are put in later, and if nothing electric is planned to take the crossover, why spend a vast amount more?
One example is Newhaven Town Yard, where 25 crossover could allow access for trains to terminate in the Up platform during perturbed/amended working. However this would require additional interlocking for the level crossing and additional signalling to permit the reversible movement that would be used a handful of times a year. All the trains into and out of the yard need to be diesel as they run over non-electrified track to reach their end destinations (Acton/Cliffe Brett Marine etc), so electrifying the crossover would have been a waste of money, even at the marginal costs. The option of electrifying it was being explored as a way to get more freight into and out of Newhaven Marine, but that is very much a later development and so wouldn't have been within the scope of the original installation of the yard.
I agree with GRALISTAIR. For the marginal costs it is incredibly short sighted. Some of the ECML crossovers north of Alnmouth are like this and that seems (amongst other things) to have ended any hope of using EMUs on local trains as they cannot be turned back.
Really, which crossovers between the Mains are not electrified? I think some of the sidings around Berwick aren't electrified, but I thought all loops and crossovers were, given it's bi-di (or at least SIMBIDS) up there.
 

John Webb

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Context is needed. Where are these crossovers? Do they see use by passenger stock, or are they used by freight or plant to access a siding.
There's one such crossover on the Midland Main Line north of Radlett. It was installed in connection with the circular siding at the Redland/Tarmac site off Harper Lane on the East (slow line) side, and allows trains coming off the siding to cross from the Up slow to the Down slow to head northwards.

The siding was installed before electrification, and is not itself electrified, neither is the crossover. I do recollect that some years ago when there was disruption to trains an EMU was reversed here, the signaller not knowing the crossover was not electrified, with even more disruption being caused!
 

D365

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so that crossover is at least cleared for passenger stock.
 

a_c_skinner

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Really, which crossovers between the Mains are not electrified? I think some of the sidings around Berwick aren't electrified, but I thought all loops and crossovers were, given it's bi-di (or at least SIMBIDS) up there.
I don't know but IIRC there has been discussion on here of EMUs doing local stoppers north from Newcastle and one of the issues was that non-powered crossovers prevented turn back south of Berwick.

Mind you cheese paring of electrification is the blight of projects. Just as an example (big) the MML omits the Erewash Valley and the Radford loop. That is a whole lot more money than a few crossovers but the idea is the same.
 

swt_passenger

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I don't know but IIRC there has been discussion on here of EMUs doing local stoppers north from Newcastle and one of the issues was that non-powered crossovers prevented turn back south of Berwick.

Mind you cheese paring of electrification is the blight of projects. Just as an example (big) the MML omits the Erewash Valley and the Radford loop. That is a whole lot more money than a few crossovers but the idea is the same.
It’s the up side turnback sidings at Morpeth and Belford that are unpowered. The facing crossovers to get over to them are both wired.
 

zwk500

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so that crossover is at least cleared for passenger stock.
The movements were being done under emergency arrangements, it may not be cleared for regular use by Diesel stock in passenger service.
Mind you cheese paring of electrification is the blight of projects. Just as an example (big) the MML omits the Erewash Valley and the Radford loop. That is a whole lot more money than a few crossovers but the idea is the same.
Omitting the Erewash Valley is not a small decision, it's a massive amount of additional work and the impact of HS2 on the Erewash valley is not fully known yet. Also, the MML are due to receive bi-mode stock so the value of wiring diversionary routes is much less now that a block north of Derby isn't a showstopper like a block north of York would be.
 

D6130

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Prior to my retirement - nearly ten years ago - there was a facing crossover on the Doncaster-Leeds line at Wintersett coal loading bunker, which was not electrified. However, I heard a story from more than one Leeds driver, that it had once been used in an emergency by a class 321 EMU under special arrangements. Presumably the train was permitted to set back a short distance and then accelerated up to the crossover speed of 15 mph before dropping the pan, coasting through the crossover and then stopping on the opposite line to put the pan up again. I believe that this saved a massive delay to the passenger service, which was stuck behind a failed freight train. I'm not sure whether the crossover is still there as the loading bunker sidings had closed some years previously.
 

Supercoss

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Another non electrified crossover at Elstow just south of Bedford, normally only sees freight traffic use it but one morning an electric unit had some problem and had to return back to Bedford and was signalled through the crossover, the pan shot up and snagged the cross span wire bringing down wires on all 4 lines ( Headspan area)
All similar non electrified cross overs then fitted with reminder signage
Radlett Harper Lane, Limbury Road GF and here at Elstow
A09CE049-8001-4ACE-8E81-C0810EE3DEE9.jpeg
 

PDG1949

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When St Helens Central was electrified in 2015, the crossover itself in the station between up and down lines was not wired, with a warning sign to electric locos to that effect. However later when Wigan-Liverpool services were forced to terminate at St Helens due to work further up towards Liverpool, it was surprising how quickly the crossover was wired.

Video clip of Northern 319 using the crossover back on to the Wigan line

 
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Legolash2o

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Apologies for the day lack of context and examples. I've come down with Covid and not had the opportunity to find examples.

It seems that my question has been answered anyway. Thanks everyone!
 

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