Non payment of fare - need to avoid Court.

[Beccy2002]

Right, so basically I am really unsure of what to do now. I have just been stopped a couple of days ago by a revenue enforcement officer who has caught me not paying my full fare on a long intercity journey to London.

I basically have just realised that I screwed up by letting them take my ticket as I booked this online and I have been doing this for years, and having read the other posts on this forum it is likely that they are going to be able to access my online history and see that I have done this quite a few times before over the last three years (maybe about 20?) where I have travelled the same route but bought tickets for only the start and the end of my journey. I think you guys call it doughnutting?

They said I would receive a letter where I could state my version of events etc. and that it could take a few months to come. I have the funds to consult a good solicitor, I basically just want to know how likely I am to get off with this (i.e. outside of court) as I work in finance and a criminal record would impact my career. I am happy to pay back the fares in question, I just want to avoid a criminal record. Are there certain ways that I can avoid this - especially if I pay all fares due at this point?

Matters are a little more complicated though, as I was not happy about being stopped so argued with the staff member about haven't they got better things to do, and that their fares are too high anyway. They made some snide comment to me as I was leaving. I wasn't happy about being held up and they said something like I should have thought about that before I fare-evaded. At that point, as I was walking away, I (in hindsight) perhaps was a bit verbally abusive to the member of staff as I basically shouted a four letter f-word followed by "off" as I walked off as I was running late and was inconvenienced by the stop. I hope that they did not write this down. They are just a revenue worker I thought, and I earn more in a month than they likely do in a year, but thinking about it now it wasn't perhaps the best thing to do.

How likely is the railway to settle for the fares due, plus a possible civil penalty, to keep this out of the criminal courts? I have worked out that the fares in question amount to over £1,000, but possibly more due to the time I travelled (Anytime/Off Peak - this all confuses me). I earn in excess of £170,000 per year so didn't really have any financial need to avoid paying the fares, I only really did it on the principle that they are too high and that they are poor value for money. On many occasions I haven't even got a seat. Why should I pay quadruple what a car journey would cost and then have to stand, I thought?

Possibly not the best idea now, but keen to avoid Court and the impact this may have on my career. I would appreciate any advice on how to encourage the railway to settle, and how I can offer to pay any civil penalty? I am happy to send a cheque this evening to the train company covering the fares due, but perhaps best wait until they calculate the amount first?

 

[ikcdab]

Blimey. You come across as very entitled. You forget that the ticket inspectors are doing their job, and a thankless one it is too. They do not deserve abuse for that. You also need to remember that one reason why fares are so high is because people evade them and the cost of recovering evaded fares. You have directly contributed to this.
I would have thought that working in finance would have made you act far more responsibly than this. You should realise this.
The advice now is to wait for the letter. I don't know what it will say, but if serial fare dodgers on an industrial scale like this dont get taken to court, then who does.
You just need to wait and reflect on your actions.

 

[Tubeboy]

Blimey. You come across as very entitled. You forget that the ticket inspectors are doing their job, and a thankless one it is too. They do not deserve abuse for that. You also need to remember that one reason why fares are so high is because people evade them and the cost of recovering evaded fares. You have directly contributed to this.
I would have thought that working in finance would have made you act far more responsibly than this. You should realise this.
The advice now is to wait for the letter. I don't know what it will say, but if serial fare dodgers on an industrial scale like this dont get taken to court, then who does.
You just need to wait and reflect on your actions.

Agree 100%.

 

[methecooldude]

Per https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/please-read-before-posting-in-disputes-prosecutions.77759/

• We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example:
  • The stations where you started & finished your journey;
  • The stations where you changed trains (if applicable);
  • If you presented a ticket(s), the information stated under "Ticket type", "From", "To", "Route", and any other relevant details;
  • What happened in any encounter with railway staff;
  • Uploading copies of any paperwork (with personal details redacted) with your post.

 

[John R]

For info, if you had not let them take your ticket then you would have committed another offence.

And fwiw, I agree with @ikcdab wholeheartedly. If the inspector who you abused has written their report accurately then I think you will have to work very hard to avoid prosecution. And I think that would probably be entirely appropriate given the facts as you’ve presented them.

 

[Huntergreed]

Right, so basically I am really unsure of what to do now. I have just been stopped a couple of days ago by a revenue enforcement officer who has caught me not paying my full fare on a long intercity journey to London.

I basically have just realised that I screwed up by letting them take my ticket as I booked this online and I have been doing this for years, and having read the other posts on this forum it is likely that they are going to be able to access my online history and see that I have done this quite a few times before over the last three years (maybe about 20?) where I have travelled the same route but bought tickets for only the start and the end of my journey. I think you guys call it doughnutting?

They said I would receive a letter where I could state my version of events etc. and that it could take a few months to come. I have the funds to consult a good solicitor, I basically just want to know how likely I am to get off with this (i.e. outside of court) as I work in finance and a criminal record would impact my career. I am happy to pay back the fares in question, I just want to avoid a criminal record. Are there certain ways that I can avoid this - especially if I pay all fares due at this point?

Welcome to the forum.

The best you can hope for is an out of court settlement. We do need some more information. Namely:

The exact ticket you held
The exact journey you made
Which company did you travel with
Which company stopped you and at which station were you stopped?

The general advice is that you will get a letter asking for your side of the story. Once you recieve this then come back to us for more advice.

Matters are a little more complicated though, as I was not happy about being stopped so argued with the staff member about haven't they got better things to do, and that their fares are too high anyway. They made some snide comment to me as I was leaving. I wasn't happy about being held up and they said something like I should have thought about that before I fare-evaded. At that point, as I was walking away, I (in hindsight) perhaps was a bit verbally abusive to the member of staff as I basically shouted a four letter f-word followed by "off" as I walked off as I was running late and was inconvenienced by the stop. I hope that they did not write this down. They are just a revenue worker I thought, and I earn more in a month than they likely do in a year, but thinking about it now it wasn't perhaps the best thing to do.

They almost certainly will have written this down, and quite rightly so. This is verbal abuse and not acceptable, it certainly doesn’t help if you want to avoid court.

How likely is the railway to settle for the fares due, plus a possible civil penalty, to keep this out of the criminal courts? I have worked out that the fares in question amount to over £1,000, but possibly more due to the time I travelled (Anytime/Off Peak - this all confuses me). I earn in excess of £170,000 per year so didn't really have any financial need to avoid paying the fares, I only really did it on the principle that they are too high and that they are poor value for money. On many occasions I haven't even got a seat. Why should I pay quadruple what a car journey would cost and then have to stand, I thought?

It is impossible to say, given there are multiple aggravating factors including you verbally abusing the member of staff and you avoiding the fare on many occasions over a prolonged period. Although I imagine a settlement may be offered, one does have to ask, if a case of this magnitude doesn’t go to court, what is the threshold?

On a side note, I strongly suggest you take some time to think about your actions going forward. Your attitude in this post has came across as very entitled. Many people who are in a financially tight situation still pay the full fare for their journey, and for you to feel you shouldn’t have to as a point of principle does not bode well, particularly when seeking advice on a forum which is full of railway staff members and rail enthusiasts. I will remind you that it is both a legal requirement and a necessary aspect of improving the rail network to ensure you pay the fare required.

Possibly not the best idea now, but keen to avoid Court and the impact this may have on my career. I would appreciate any advice on how to encourage the railway to settle, and how I can offer to pay any civil penalty? I am happy to send a cheque this evening to the train company covering the fares due, but perhaps best wait until they calculate the amount first?

All you can do now is wait, do not send a cheque without receiving and responding to their correspondence first. Take some time to reflect upon what you have done, respond to my points above with more detail, and then come back when you receive the letter.

 

[Gloster]

As I am a non-expert I will only make three comments. Firstly, it is probably not worth consulting a solicitor, even though you can afford it, until the railway has written back to you and you know how they are likely to deal with it. Secondly, if they offer you an out of court settlement, they will ask for the full Anytime Single fare for each and every journey that they consider that you made, with no allowance for those tickets you did buy, plus their investigation costs, which start at £100. Thirdly, if they decide not to offer you an out-of-court settlement and instead take you straight to court, it may be because of your behaviour when stopped.

 

[Beccy2002]

For info, if you had not let them take your ticket then you would have committed another offence.

How, and what offence would that have been?

 

[Grvrdvicdr]

Personal opinion here. Fully deserve what’s coming to you. Why should you not pay for years while everyone else has to. Especially working in finance, you should be a morally honest person.

 

[methecooldude]

How, and what offence would that have been?

Railway Bylaws, 17.2:

1. a person shall hand over his ticket for inspection and verification of validity when asked to do so by an authorised person

 

[John R]

How, and what offence would that have been?

Read 18.1 and 18.2 of the Conditions of Travel.

https://assets.nationalrail.co.uk/e8xgegruud3g/3Y9UXuFziljwsGFCUAwKAA/0aa50a101febffda28c070aae2572570/National_Rail_Conditions_of_Travel.pdf

 

[Beccy2002]

Welcome to the forum.

The best you can hope for is an out of court settlement. We do need some more information. Namely:

The exact ticket you held
The exact journey you made
Which company did you travel with
Which company stopped you and at which station were you stopped?

The general advice is that you will get a letter asking for your side of the story. Once you recieve this then come back to us for more advice.

They almost certainly will have written this down, and quite rightly so. This is verbal abuse and not acceptable, it certainly doesn’t help if you want to avoid court.

It is impossible to say, given there are multiple aggravating factors including you verbally abusing the member of staff and you avoiding the fare on many occasions over a prolonged period. Although I imagine a settlement may be offered, one does have to ask, if a case of this magnitude doesn’t go to court, what is the threshold?

On a side note, I strongly suggest you take some time to think about your actions going forward. Your attitude in this post has came across as very entitled. Many people who are in a financially tight situation still pay the full fare for their journey, and for you to feel you shouldn’t have to as a point of principle does not bode well, particularly when seeking advice on a forum which is full of railway staff members and rail enthusiasts. I will remind you that it is both a legal requirement and a necessary aspect of improving the rail network to ensure you pay the fare required.

All you can do now is wait, do not send a cheque without receiving and responding to their correspondence first. Take some time to reflect upon what you have done, respond to my points above with more detail, and then come back when you receive the letter.

I was very stressed due to personal reasons and will apologise and offer the member of staff some wine/chocolates etc. if the train company is prepared to pass these on.

Rail Fares have always just been so high and I begrudged paying like four times over the odds of what I would have paid if I drove when I barely get a seat and it is so uncomfortable. I guess in hindsight I have been wrong to take it into my own hands, yet fares in the UK are so much higher than compared to Europe.

 

[methecooldude]

Rail Fares have always just been so high and I begrudged paying like four times over the odds of what I would have paid if I drove when I barely get a seat and it is so uncomfortable. I guess in hindsight I have been wrong to take it into my own hands, yet fares in the UK are so much higher than compared to Europe.

Then why continue taking the train...?

 

[ikcdab]

How, and what offence would that have been?

An out of court settlement is not a right. It's something that the railway company can offer to keep things simple. They do not have to offer that. You have committed a criminal offence and the normal route is to prosecute you through the criminal courts. Your behaviour has exacerbated the situation and might mean that the railway co decide not to offer an out of court settlement and to proceed to prosecution.

 

[John R]

I was very stressed due to personal reasons and will apologise and offer the member of staff some wine/chocolates etc. if the train company is prepared to pass these on.

Many people are stressed when stopped for fare dodging unsurprisingly, but manage to handle the situation without abusing the member of staff.

As that person may be asked to provide a witness statement to court, I doubt if any offering as an apology would be accepted.

 

[ikcdab]

I was very stressed due to personal reasons and will apologise and offer the member of staff some wine/chocolates etc. if the train company is prepared to pass these on.

Rail Fares have always just been so high and I begrudged paying like four times over the odds of what I would have paid if I drove when I barely get a seat and it is so uncomfortable. I guess in hindsight I have been wrong to take it into my own hands, yet fares in the UK are so much higher than compared to Europe.

Then why don't you just drive.. Oh I know, it's the depriciation, insurance, petrol, London parking charges, ulez charges.... And the stress of having to drive. Add it all up and the train isn't that much more....

 

[AndroidBango]

I was very stressed due to personal reasons and will apologise and offer the member of staff some wine/chocolates etc. if the train company is prepared to pass these on.

Rail Fares have always just been so high and I begrudged paying like four times over the odds of what I would have paid if I drove when I barely get a seat and it is so uncomfortable. I guess in hindsight I have been wrong to take it into my own hands, yet fares in the UK are so much higher than compared to Europe.

But you earn £170k so the full fares should really be neither here nor there to you.

I suggest not using the above rationalising in response to the letter from TOC.

 

[Beccy2002]

Then why don't you just drive.. Oh I know, it's the depriciation, insurance, petrol, London parking charges, ulez charges.... And the stress of having to drive. Add it all up and the train isn't that much more....

But at least a (ULEZ exempt) BMW XM has heated seats that I can actually sit down on? Sometimes the train is so loud and busy that even in First it is not comfortable. Why pay four times the petrol cost (even more in First) to be treated like cattle?

But you earn £170k so the full fares should really be neither here nor there to you.

I suggest not using the above rationalising in response to the letter from TOC.

True, I could have afforded it. But no one stayed wealthy by spending - especially on stuff that is such poor value. UK fares for a Birmingham to London peak journey compared with a similar distance in Europe are a disgrace. I am surprised that more do not split tickets also. For me it wasn't out of a need to save money but out of stubbornness and a refusal to accept a poor deal.

 

[AndroidBango]

But at least a (ULEZ exempt) BMW XM has heated seats that I can actually sit down on? Sometimes the train is so loud and busy that even in First it is not comfortable. Why pay four times the petrol cost (even more in First) to be treated like cattle?


True, I could have afforded it. But no one stayed wealthy by spending - especially on stuff that is such poor value. UK fares for a Birmingham to London peak journey compared with a similar distance in Europe are a disgrace. I am surprised that more do not split tickets also. For me it wasn't out of a need to save money but out of stubbornness and a refusal to accept a poor deal.

That's as may be, but that's hardly an excuse for sustained dishonesty, particularly for someone in your line of work.

 

[Beccy2002]

That's as may be, but that's hardly an excuse for sustained dishonesty, particularly for someone in your line of work.

Come on, it is a few rail fares. Hardly insider trading?

 

[AndroidBango]

Come on, it is a few rail fares. Hardly insider trading?

Will your employer/regulator view your actions in such a flippant manner?

 

[methecooldude]

Come on, it is a few rail fares. Hardly insider trading?

It's also against the law, amounts to fraud really 'wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain'... yep

 

[Beccy2002]

Will your employer/regulator view your actions in such a flippant manner?

Probably not, that's why I am seeking advice. I think it is all hot air really. The train would have run anyway and I partially paid my fare to get through the barriers on entry and exit. I didn't exactly jump the barriers. I did have a ticket.

It's also against the law, amounts to fraud really 'wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain'... yep

It really shouldn't. Especially given that the fares are criminally high compared to overseas and the trains are loud and seats are not always available.

This tale reads like a troll at work.

Being investigated and potentially losing a high-value role to the country's GDP over a few train fares is a load of nonsense really. **** sake, the train would have ran anyway? I didn't steal anything or jump the barriers?

 

[AndroidBango]

Probably not, that's why I am seeking advice. I think it is all hot air really. The train would have run anyway and I partially paid my fare to get through the barriers on entry and exit. I didn't exactly jump the barriers. I did have a ticket.



It really shouldn't. Especially given that the fares are criminally high compared to overseas and the trains are loud and seats are not always available.



Being investigated and potentially losing a high-value role to the country's GDP over a few train fares is a load of nonsense really. **** sake, the train would have ran anyway? I didn't steal anything or jump the barriers?

But given your attitude, I'm starting to think it would be quite funny.

Rationalise it all you want but you have stolen something to which you weren't entitled.

 

[Beccy2002]

But given your attitude, I'm starting to think it would be quite funny.

Rationalise it all you want but you have stolen something to which you weren't entitled.

Well you have a somewhat warped sense of humour? I have seen real cases of wrongdoing throughout my career. People getting away with all sorts prior to the 2008 crash. No one would have really batted an eyelid over a few train fares before then, but since regulation has become much stricter. I have worked in the City for over 30 years. To lose my career over a few train fares when I have seen people get away with all sorts of REAL dishonesty before the crash is total nonsense and unjust. This could even affect my pension - I haven't taken advice on that yet. All for about £1,000 of rail fares? Total nonsense.

Well you have a somewhat warped sense of humour? I have seen real cases of wrongdoing throughout my career. People getting away with all sorts prior to the 2008 crash. No one would have really batted an eyelid over a few train fares before then, but since regulation has become much stricter. I have worked in the City for over 30 years. To lose my career over a few train fares when I have seen people get away with all sorts of REAL dishonesty before the crash is total nonsense and unjust. This could even affect my pension - I haven't taken advice on that yet. All for about £1,000 of rail fares? Total nonsense.

As I said, I am happy to pay the train company back. Christ, I'll even pay them £2,000 if it keeps them happy.

 

[ikcdab]

i am beginning to think that @Beccy2002 is a fake account. No-one can be that stupid and also have a "high-flying" job in finance...
I presume also, therefore, that you would be equally happy to shoplift in the supermarket if you think the stuff there is too expensive?
You need to seriously grow up and realise that you have commited a criminal offence and that you cannot pick and choose which laws you chose to stick with and which ones you will break.

 

[Beccy2002]

i am beginning to think that @Beccy2002 is a fake account. No-one can be that stupid and also have a "high-flying" job in finance...
I presume also, therefore, that you would be equally happy to shoplift in the supermarket if you think the stuff there is too expensive?
You need to seriously grow up and realise that you have commited a criminal offence and that you cannot pick and choose which laws you chose to stick with and which ones you will break.

I wouldn't shoplift, as that would be theft. Saving a bit of money on a train that runs anyway (and has fares that are not justifiable) is not stealing as the train would have ran anyway - therefore no loss.

I am not sure how old you are but I grew up in a time where something like this would have been a non-issue. Now everything is woke... Jesus Christ.

i am beginning to think that @Beccy2002 is a fake account. No-one can be that stupid and also have a "high-flying" job in finance...
I presume also, therefore, that you would be equally happy to shoplift in the supermarket if you think the stuff there is too expensive?
You need to seriously grow up and realise that you have commited a criminal offence and that you cannot pick and choose which laws you chose to stick with and which ones you will break.

Real crime would be insider trading, shorting, fraudulent transactions etc. Not getting on a train that would have been running anyway.

 

[AndroidBango]

I wouldn't shoplift, as that would be theft. Saving a bit of money on a train that runs anyway (and has fares that are not justifiable) is not stealing as the train would have ran anyway - therefore no loss.

I am not sure how old you are but I grew up in a time where something like this would have been a non-issue. Now everything is woke... Jesus Christ.


Real crime would be insider trading, shorting, fraudulent transactions etc. Not getting on a train that would have been running anyway.

The law disagrees.

And why would you be averse to shoplifting? The shop would have been open anyway.

 

[Beccy2002]

I was thinking the same.

You could be forgiven. The revenue officer must have been in their 20's. Maybe looking for a promotion or something? Christ, when I was in my 20s something like this would be dealt with by an undertaking to repay the money and possibly a fine. Not ruin someone's career. That said, I was going to retire in about 5 years. But still, this is so nonsensical. Don't the criminal courts have real criminals to deal with? You know, the type that actually go out and harm people. This country sickens me these days...

The law disagrees.

And why would you be averse to shoplifting? The shop would have been open anyway.

Yes, but that involved the physical removal of goods with an intent to permanently deprive. I don't wish to do that. In the case of the train, it was running anyway. Me boarding and paying a partial fare (you guys call it doughnutting?) hasn't caused more costs for the train company? The train was running anyway.

 

[yorkie]

Firstly, a reminder to everyone that the following must be adhered to when posting in this forum section:

Please read before posting in Disputes & Prosecutions

Guidance for those asking for advice: Please bear in mind the following, when asking for advice in this section: We need to know all relevant facts in order to assist you, including, for example: The stations* where you actually started & finished your journey The stations* where you changed...

www.railforums.co.uk

Furthermore, if any content is causing concern, it must not be replied to; instead it should simply be reported to us, using the report link at the bottom of the post in question.

As the original poster is not engaging constructively, this thread is locked

@Beccy2002 if you want advice regarding your case, you would need to ask elsewhere.