Norse Atlantic: experiences and opinions?

[najaB]

Had my first flight with Norse Atlantic this week, flying Gatwick to Barbados. I can't say that I was overly impressed with the experience. Though, I guess that's low-cost for you.

On the positive side, the flight was more or less on time and the aircraft was clean and comfortable with nothing obviously broken.

However, I find it odd that they want you to pay to choose your seat even at the check-in counter where most other airlines offer free selection at check-in. And the lack of even free water on an eight hour flight doesn't strike me as a good idea.

As to their longer-term viability, while one flight isn't a trend, it's not a good sign that even as low as £200 one-way a flight to Barbados, in winter, was way less than half full. I really hope the people next to me at check-in were on the LAX flight because they paid £28 each to reserve seats and there were whole rows empty!

Adding to questions about their long term prospects, they're chopping and changing their network, which suggests that they haven't found routes that work.

Simple Flying article: More Cuts: Boston & Washington Dulles Exit Norse Atlantic's Network

 

[YorkRailFan]

Norse was founded by ex Norwegian Long Haul executives (hence why I like to call Norse, Norwegian 2.0) and effectively has the same business model. They have an average load factor of 55% yet expect to report a profit for 2024. They are throwing darts at a map and seeing what works and what doesn't, making a huge deal about route launches and then cutting them just weeks later. I don't think Norwegian 2.0 has long left in this industry.

 

[philosopher]

Norse was founded by ex Norwegian Long Haul executives (hence why I like to call Norse, Norwegian 2.0) and effectively has the same business model. They have an average load factor of 55% yet expect to report a profit for 2024. They are throwing darts at a map and seeing what works and what doesn't, making a huge deal about route launches and then cutting them just weeks later. I don't think Norwegian 2.0 has long left in this industry.

Long haul no frills has never really worked for transatlantic flights. I think this is because removing complimentary food does not save much, they still have to operate from airports large enough to service wide body aircraft and time zones limit fleet utilisation.

 

[najaB]

I don't think Norwegian 2.0 has long left in this industry.

I'm can't say I disagree. Let's put it this way, I've not booked my flight back to the UK yet! Waiting until closer to the day.

 

[YorkRailFan]

I'm can't say I disagree. Let's put it this way, I've not booked my flight back to the UK yet!

If you want a Low Cost flight back, I'd recommend perhaps flying via the US and then Play via Iceland, takes longer but there are savings.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Long haul no frills has never really worked for transatlantic flights. I think this is because removing complimentary food does not save much, they still have to operate from airports large enough to service wide body aircraft and time zones limit fleet utilisation.

Correct, long haul has far higher operating costs than short haul. Long Haul Low Cost can work on some routes, but these are mostly routes without a lot of competition.

 

[Speed43125]

The trick with Norse that makes the business model tick is the cheap long term leases they secured during covid for their 787s. As others have said, their route structure emulating legacy carries is clearly struggling to work though.

 

[najaB]

If you want a Low Cost flight back, I'd recommend perhaps flying via the US and then Play via Iceland, takes longer but there are savings.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not particularly looking for a low-cost flight though, I just tried Norse since they are new on the route, and KLM pulled out (I flew with them the last couple of times I was down here). The lowest cost back to the UK is likely to be with Tui, anything via the US is going to be at least as expensive as a direct flight with a legacy carrier.

I'll probably fly back with Virgin as my Flying Blue points must be close to expiry.

The trick with Norse that makes the business model tick is the cheap long term leases they secured during covid for their 787s. As others have said, their route structure emulating legacy carries is clearly struggling to work though.

Doesn't matter how cheap the leases are though if you can't get enough bums in seats to cover the operating costs. Not sure how much freight they move, don't imagine it can be that much though given their dartboard approach to route planning. Cargo companies tend to like long-term reliability.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm not particularly looking for a low-cost flight though, I just tried Norse since they are new on the route, and KLM pulled out (I flew with them the last couple of times I was down here). The lowest cost back to the UK is likely to be with Tui, anything via the US is going to be at least as expensive as a direct flight with a legacy carrier.

I'll probably fly back with Virgin as my Flying Blue points must be close to expiry.

Sounds like a good plan. I can definitely see why Norwegian 2.0 isn't that popular on these routes.

 

[EC73LDN]

I flew with them from Gatwick to Oslo last year, so it wasn't the full long-haul service, but even so my impression from that short flight was that it is very distinctly a low-cost operation.

 

[mpthomson]

If you have a look at Noel Philips on Youtube his most recent review is a Norse flight, albeit in Premium economy. He thought it was alright given the price of tickets (c$300 economy Gatwick to Miami).

 

[najaB]

Seems that Norse has started shopping around for a buyer.

Scandanavian low-cost long-haul carrier Norse Atlantic Airways indicates it is exploring part-ownership by another airline as an option for its future strategy.

Norse Atlantic serves transatlantic routes using a fleet of Boeing 787s.

The company has been engaged in rounds of fundraising, through share issues, to shore up liquidity over the winter season dip.

Norse Atlantic to explore strategy options including part-ownership by another carrier

Scandanavian low-cost long-haul carrier Norse Atlantic Airways indicates it is exploring part-ownership by another airline as an option for its future strategy. Norse Atlantic serves transatlantic routes using a fleet of Boeing 787s. The company has been engaged in rounds of fundraising, through...

www.flightglobal.com

 

[YorkRailFan]

Seems that Norse has started shopping around for a buyer.

Norse Atlantic to explore strategy options including part-ownership by another carrier

Scandanavian low-cost long-haul carrier Norse Atlantic Airways indicates it is exploring part-ownership by another airline as an option for its future strategy. Norse Atlantic serves transatlantic routes using a fleet of Boeing 787s. The company has been engaged in rounds of fundraising, through...

www.flightglobal.com

The European sector is heading towards consolidation, as seen by ITA, TAP, Air Europa and SAS all either putting themselves up for sale or being purchased by one of the big 3 airline groups in Europe (Lufthansa Group, Air France-KLM and International Airlines Group who owns British Airways). I do struggle to see the attraction of Norse to these groups considering that Lufthansa is purchasing ITA for ITA's South European and North African network, Air France-KLM is purchasing SAS for SAS' Scandinavian network, International Airlines Group (IAG) is purchasing Air Europa for Air Europa's Latin American Network and TAP is up for grabs. Norse risks being overlooked by the Big 3 airline groups in Europe so I could see Norse looking for a private equity company.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Nigerian carrier Air Peace is to open a route between Lagos and London Gatwick using aircraft wet-leased from Norse Atlantic Airways.

Norse Atlantic states that it will begin operating the service on Air Peace’s behalf from April, initially for a two-month period.

The Scandinavian carrier uses a fleet of Boeing 787s, a number of which are wet-leased to Spain’s Air Europa.Norse Atlantic chief Bjorn Tore Larsen says the collaboration with Air Peace offers an opportunity to “leverage our expertise in charter operations”.
Air Peace has obtained Gatwick slots which Norse will use during the wet-lease period.

“As we make a foray into the European market, we are confident that this strategic partnership will further position us to surpass the expectations of our customers,” says Air Peace chief Allen Onyema.

Norse will operate four-times weekly on the route. It says there is “potential for a longer-term agreement” beyond the initial term.

Larsen says the carrier aims to deliver a “reliable and high-quality service” to the Nigerian company.

Nigerian carrier Air Peace to use Norse wet-lease for Lagos-London service

Nigerian carrier Air Peace is to open a route between Lagos and London Gatwick using aircraft wet-leased from Norse Atlantic Airways.

www.flightglobal.com

Well this will be fun...

 

[najaB]

Nigerian carrier Air Peace to use Norse wet-lease for Lagos-London service

Nigerian carrier Air Peace is to open a route between Lagos and London Gatwick using aircraft wet-leased from Norse Atlantic Airways.

www.flightglobal.com

Well this will be fun...

Air Peace don't have the best of reputations where safety is concerned. But at least it's a wet lease so everything should be done to European standards.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Air Peace don't have the best of reputations where safety is concerned. But at least it's a wet lease so everything should be up to European standards.

Will be interesting to see what the operating conditions for Norwegian 2.0 in Nigeria will be like due to the past experiences of carriers like Emirates.

 

[Jozhua]

I'm thinking about going to NYC later this year and Norse didn't look much cheaper than the alternatives? Where you get stung is the luggage, which you of course want when travelling across continents.

It seems like once all the taxes/tariffs are added on, plus unavoidable fuel, it inevitably adds up to a lot to run these flights.

Is the Iceland hopping service now run by a new airline? It seems as though these low cost long haul(ISH) carriers all seem to go bust.

My feeling is that cost savings will probably only truly come when airlines start to more widely use single aisle planes for transatlantic routes. (A321XLR is capable of UK - US East Coast, as I believe is 737 Max, although in-flight disassembly could impact range.) The argument I believe is that the planes have a lower aisle to seat ratio, therefore less plane per passenger. They are also easier to run full than wide body's and can be run on thinner routes between smaller airports. The smaller airports could be a big benefit for travellers on a budget, as it reduces train, car, taxi distance for many people, as well as car parking charges, etc.

Hopeful for an EMA to JFK/EWR service one day!

 

[najaB]

My feeling is that cost savings will probably only truly come when airlines start to more widely use single aisle planes for transatlantic routes.

The savings in fuel costs come with a drop in revenue for moving cargo though.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Is the Iceland hopping service now run by a new airline? It seems as though these low cost long haul(ISH) carriers all seem to go bust.

It's ran by Play, who were founded by former Wow Air execs.

It seems like once all the taxes/tariffs are added on, plus unavoidable fuel, it inevitably adds up to a lot to run these flights.

One of the reasons why long haul, low cost doesn't work.

My feeling is that cost savings will probably only truly come when airlines start to more widely use single aisle planes for transatlantic routes. (A321XLR is capable of UK - US East Coast, as I believe is 737 Max, although in-flight disassembly could impact range.) The argument I believe is that the planes have a lower aisle to seat ratio, therefore less plane per passenger. They are also easier to run full than wide body's and can be run on thinner routes between smaller airports. The smaller airports could be a big benefit for travellers on a budget, as it reduces train, car, taxi distance for many people, as well as car parking charges, etc.

Westjet will use their 737-8s (part of the MAX family) on transatlantic flights from the likes of Halifax, Canada to Edinburgh and Dublin this Summer.

 

[mpthomson]

Air Peace don't have the best of reputations where safety is concerned. But at least it's a wet lease so everything should be done to European standards.

I do wonder whether AP have EASA issues as they have no flights into Europe at all, in fact the London Norse flights will be their only route outside of Africa/ Middle East.

 

[thejuggler]

Once A321 Neo XLR comes on stream it opens up lots of possibilities for higher capacity longer routes.

However as stated above when you look into the price breakdown of a NYC Transatlantic trip the 'fare' is 5% of the total price. 95% is fuel surcharge and taxes.

 

[YorkRailFan]

• Norse Atlantic continues to bleed heavily.
• Its full-year 2023 loss was despite considerable unit revenue increases & unit cost reductions.
• The airline's struggle means it must reassess its approach.

If you think it is challenging to make an airline profitable, spare thought for long-haul low-cost carriers (LHLCCs), which are even harder to make work – assuming they can be. The airline graveyard is full of carriers that have tried. Fair play to them, but it is crucially important that they heed the lessons of their ancestors.

Norse Atlantic: $169 million loss in 2023​

According to the carrier's financials, its net loss (i.e., after tax) was -$168.6 million. It was a slight improvement on 2022 (-$175.0 million). At the operating level (earnings before interest and taxes), it was -$135.2 million, improved from -$146.1 million. While it was mainly dragged down by Q1 2023 (January-March) results, it was far from covering even its operating costs for the year. Its number of flights rose nearly threefold last year, with 10 Boeing 787s used for its own operations (including one spare) and five sub-leased. While Norse does not separate profit/loss from scheduled flying and leasing, its figures show that 90% of its revenue was from its own flying.
Looking at the net loss last year shows that:

• Its net margin was -38%, i.e., it lost 38 US cents for every $1 in revenue
• It lost $172 for each passenger carried

It filled 74% of available seats​

You should not look at seat load factors (SLF) in isolation. It is always about how they were achieved and how they interact with fares/yields and costs. Nonetheless, Norse filled 74% of its seats last year, up from 62% in 2022.


Not surprisingly, the bulk of its passengers (44%) were carried in the all-important peak summer (Q3 2023, July-September). It was when its SLF rose to 83%, and passengers more than doubled versus Q2 (+112%).

However, revenue per passenger (fare and ancillaries combined) only increased by just 4% in the three months. It doesn't seem to have capitalized on it as much as it could have. Still, it achieved a small net profit in Q3.

Like most airlines, Norse particularly struggles in the winter. It has tried to address this, most notably with flights to the Caribbean and making more routes seasonal, but little of what it has done has worked.

Source: Norse. Figure: James Pearson
Routes have been cut, sometimes even before the first flight, and frequencies have been reduced, sometimes dramatically. It feeds into schedule inconsistently, greatly annoying customers and reducing trust. It must be worked on even harder, which will be crucial if it hopes to achieve profitability – or to survive.

It is not just winter. Earlier in 2024, it removed Boston and Washington Dulles from its network amid other changes. While the greatest amount of planning may not mean performance matches expectations, there is a clear trend.

Summary​

There is little doubt that Norse is making the same mistakes that Norwegian did in its long-haul network. In particular, it spreads thinly by serving multiple European airports, sometimes with just one route. Like any other business, an airline must not spread itself too thinly. It can be deadly.
Norse must address exactly what it wants to be. LHLCC is extraordinarily hard to make work, and it could be argued that no airline has done it successfully.

If it wishes to continue as an LHLCC operator, I strongly recommend concentrating on one airport – London Gatwick makes the most sense – and building strength, presence, and dominance. It needs to seek out opportunities where it can win. Focusing on one airport may also enable it to drive what will be essential: passenger feed from other flights.

Ouch: Norse Atlantic's Troubles Continue With $169 Million Net Loss In 2023

Passenger traffic rose to almost 980,000.

simpleflying.com

As mentioned in the article, Norwegian 2.0's network is scattered, there is no real hub for them. They're getting desperate, as evidenced by the lease deal with Air Peace mentioned up thread. $172 loss per passenger is pretty damning if you ask me, they simply can't continue like this.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Long-haul low-cost carrier Norse Atlantic has announced Cape Town as its next destination. Flights from Gatwick will begin at the end of October for the popular winter leisure market. It is its latest attempt to make winter work, a season that undermines the success of most airlines – let alone hard-to-make-work long-haul LCCs.The long, 5,188 nautical mile (9,607 km) route will begin on October 28, shortly after northern airlines switch to winter schedules based on IATA slot seasons.Running three times weekly using the Boeing 787-9, Gatwick-Cape Town will become Norse's longest airport pair, surpassing Gatwick-Los Angeles and Oslo-Bangkok.It is scheduled as follows, with all times local:

Gatwick-Cape Town: Z0795, 20:00-09:30+1 (11h 30m block)
Cape Town-Gatwick: Z0796, 11:45-21:35 (11h 50m block); ouch at the arrival time. Unusually, it will operate during the day back to Europe, helping to reduce costs and increase aircraft utilization, but probably achieving lower fares and yields. Only two other carriers have daytime service to Europe, with Norse joining Lufthansa to Munich (09:30 departure) and Virgin to Heathrow (10:40 departure).According to booking data, London-Cape Town had an estimated 340,000 roundtrip passengers last year. Most people flew non-stop, with only one in four connecting en route, especially in the Middle East with Emirates and Qatar Airways.When Norse's Cape Town flights begin, it will become the third carrier from London with a non-stop service. Fortunately, Norse and BA's Gatwick flights operate on different days.

British Airways from Heathrow: double daily A350-1000 and 777-300ER
Virgin Atlantic from Heathrow: daily 787-9
British Airways from Gatwick: three weekly 777-200ER (returns in mid-December for the peak season)
Norse Atlantic from Gatwick: three weekly 787-9. The lowest London-originating roundtrip I can find with Norse in mid-November is USD$614 (£492). This price includes taxes, a small carry-on bag, and entertainment, but not food, a larger carry-on bag, or a checked bag. The lowest non-stop I can find with BA and Virgin Atlantic in November, excluding a bag, is significantly more, at $1,075 (£862).Flying via somewhere is an option, with some of the least expensive options being Ethiopian Airlines via Addis Ababa, Kenya Airways via Nairobi, and Qatar Airways via Doha. Qatar Airways' lowest all-inclusive price is around $802 (£643) in November, about the same as Norse's inclusive fare. But flying via the Middle East adds significantly more time to your journey, offset by more flights to choose from.

Norse Adds 1st African Route: London Gatwick To Cape Town International Airport

While it serves Nigeria, that's on a wet lease basis for Air Peace, so it doesn't count.

simpleflying.com

With competition from BA and Virgin from Gatwick (in the case of the former) and Heathrow (both), with such low prices, I have doubts that they can make it profitable. Additionally, there's a looming fuel crisis in South Africa which further weakens this route's chance of succeeding.

 

[najaB]

Norse Adds 1st African Route: London Gatwick To Cape Town International Airport

While it serves Nigeria, that's on a wet lease basis for Air Peace, so it doesn't count.

simpleflying.com

With competition from BA and Virgin from Gatwick (in the case of the former) and Heathrow (both), with such low prices, I have doubts that they can make it profitable. Additionally, there's a looming fuel crisis in South Africa which further weakens this route's chance of succeeding.

The only hope is that they have decent belly cargo.

 

[atillathehunn]

The only hope is that they have decent belly cargo.

I really doubt they will carry cargo. A few times a week, appears to be winter seasonal (at least for now). This is not particularly attractive to the carrier, and low-cost carriers tend to eschew cargo.

That being said - Cape Town commands quite high fares. On a random pair of dates in November/December, the price they feel/are able to charge is more than double that on their Gatwick to New York route.

Interestingly they are following Virgin's approach to Cape Town and are offering a day flight back north. Like up the road at Johannesburg, BA is a night flight both ways.

While the headline price is quite a bit lower than Virgin or BA (both from Heathrow), for that base price you get nothing - a single small item in the cabin. Once you get either a piece of checked in baggage or one of their bundles to equivalise to BA/VS, it becomes approximately the same price. That being said, hybrid/LCCs to the region is not without precedent. Discover are operating to Windhoek/Victoria Falls and at some point they offered direct flights into the Kruger (not sure if they're still going).

It might not be their worst idea.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Discover are operating to Windhoek/Victoria Falls and at some point they offered direct flights into the Kruger (not sure if they're still going).

Discover are operating those flights with little to no competition and are appealing to leisure carriers only. Long haul, low cost does work, but only when the route has little to no competition and the route is largely attractive to leisure passengers. That's why TUI and Azul (among others) are successful in their field.

 

[atillathehunn]

Discover are operating those flights with little to no competition and are appealing to leisure carriers only. Long haul, low cost does work, but only when the route has little to no competition and the route is largely attractive to leisure passengers. That's why TUI and Azul (among others) are successful in their field.

Evidence suggests this is not entirely true, though. The absolute persistence of long-haul LCCs to fly London - New York, for example, speaks to the contrary, as well as their flights to southern Florida from London.

TUI is not really a LCC - they are a package holiday company that offers their own flights, as well as sometimes running the flights as scheduled flights.

The point remains that London to Cape Town in particularly is a route that commands high fares and yet is heavily leisure focused with much less direct competition from London than some of their other routes.

 

[YorkRailFan]

Evidence suggests this is not entirely true, though. The absolute persistence of long-haul LCCs to fly London - New York, for example, speaks to the contrary, as well as their flights to southern Florida from London.

Norwegian Long Haul didn't last on that route. It just doesn't work to fly New York-London low cost due to competition from full service carriers (JetBlue is not low cost), the only carrier making it work is Play with their stopover in Iceland itinerary.

 

[najaB]

I really doubt they will carry cargo. A few times a week, appears to be winter seasonal (at least for now). This is not particularly attractive to the carrier, and low-cost carriers tend to eschew cargo.

Norse, however, has an active cargo operation: https://www.flynorsecargo.com/

 

[YorkRailFan]

While only beginning in December 2023, it appears that Norse Atlantic’s winter seasonal Paris CDG to Miami service is not returning. It is no longer listed on its website, and – unlike other winter routes – the carrier has not uploaded schedules to OAG or Cirium. While things could change, it is probably another example of how hard it is to make long-haul, low-cost work. This article comes soon after Norse began the summer seasonal Paris CDG-Los Angeles.Norse: Paris to Miami
The widebody-only carrier inaugurated Paris CDG-Miami on December 11, 2023. Analyzing OAG schedules shows that it initially ran twice-weekly with the Boeing 787-9 before it increased to four times weekly to capitalize on Christmastime demand. It was mainly three times weekly for the rest of the season, reducing to twice-weekly in April. It ended on April 20.Norse completed directly with Air France (10 weekly to double daily in the winter, primarily on the 777-300ER) and a daily, winter-only service by American Airlines (mainly on the 777-200ER). Norse's entry meant it was the first time since XL Airways France ceased to exist in 2019 that three carriers had non-stop flights. Air France and American will benefit from boosted yields following Norse's exit.
A 62% load factor until February?
According to US Department of Transportation T-100 data for December 2023-February 2024 (the latest month to which I have access), Norse carried 14,928 roundtrip CDG-Miami passengers. As the route had just started, it seems a tad unfair to look at it like this.

With 23,998 seats for sale, it achieved an average seat load factor of 62%, obviously very low in itself. SLF is just one part of performance and should not be considered in isolation.
Of course, all routes take time to develop, especially long-haul, but Norse would have expected a better result. Generally speaking, airline revenue managers can tell how well a new route will do based on the first 24 to 48 hours of sales.

With Norse's loads, probably insufficient fares, and perhaps the expectation that it would not improve relative to what else could be done with the aircraft, it seems the long-haul-only operator cut its losses to focus elsewhere. When writing, it is unclear what will replace it.

Another Route Cut: Norse Atlantic Axes Paris CDG To Miami Flights

It means that, when writing, Norse's winter network from Paris CDG comprises just one route.

simpleflying.com

Norwegian 2.0's only other Winter service from Paris CDG is to New York JFK 3x weekly since LA is Summer Only. Another example of where competing with two very established carriers does not work for airlines like Norwegian 2.0.