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North Korea Grand Rail Tour - any interest?

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gazthomas

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Hi

I know this won't be everyone's idea of a great holiday for lots of reasons, but I am looking to see if there is interest in a rail trip to North Korea once its borders have reopened to foreign travellers?

I had hoped to join Juche Travel's "Grand Rail Tour" in October/November 2019, but I wasn't able to go, but I have since been in touch with David Rowlands at at specialist North Korea travel company Juche Travel and he says he would run a railway tour again if there is sufficient interest (minimum number of travellers would be 20). The 2019 itinerary for reference can be found here:

https://www.juchetravelservices.com...19/01/GRAND-RAIL-TOUR-2019-TOUR-ITINERARY.pdf

If you're interested please can you send me a private message through the forum.

I would also really like to hear from you if you made the trip in 2019 and what it was like.

Cheers

Gary Thomas
 
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superalbs

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I would probably be interested in visiting North Korea (by rail) at some point.
 

Vespa

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Done it :)

12 years ago Pyongyang to Beijing and Pyongyang underground not to mention the DMZ tour :E
 

cakefiend

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Looks amazing. Only the lack of available free time prevents me from joining, otherwise I'd be completely up for it.
It's North Korea, what are you expecting? Every second of your time, more or less, will be under the supervision of state-employed minders.
 

gazthomas

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It's North Korea, what are you expecting? Every second of your time, more or less, will be under the supervision of state-employed minders.
I think it was more an issue of being able to leave our lovely plutocracy ;)

Looks amazing. Only the lack of available free time prevents me from joining, otherwise I'd be completely up for it.
If that changes let me know, can't see this happening before mid 2022 or even 2023!
 

Roast Veg

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Visited the DMZ from the south side by coach in 2015 - great experience. Would love to go on a tour like this if I can convince the other half it's a good idea.
 

gazthomas

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Visited the DMZ from the south side by coach in 2015 - great experience. Would love to go on a tour like this if I can convince the other half it's a good idea.
I'll add you to the list of interested people if that's okay!
 

ainsworth74

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I must admit I find myself always rather in two minds about this sort of thing. It seems like it would be a fascinating place to visit (and indeed the itinerary from 2019 looks excellent, I have some memory of seeing it before so I suspect it was posted here at the time!). But there is the ethical dimension of visiting a brutal dictatorship, having to pay homage to the dictator and his family (from Day 2: "where the group can pay their respects to the country’s leaders" which by my understanding is mandatory for tourists), helping to continue an illusion that North Korea is something other than an impoverished repressive dictatorship and, even if only a small amount, providing hard foreign currency to the regime (note from the not included costs: "Gratuities for your guides and driver (we would recommend a figure of around EUR 10 per customer per day)" as well as the Euro or Dollar being the standard currency for visitors in shops and similar).

Like I say, two minds. It would, I'm sure, be a fantastic trip to a fascinating country but I do think it's tricky to separate it from the ethical side of things.
 

hst43102

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I would absolutely love to do something like this but unfortunately it would be far too expensive for me currently. I've always found the railways in the DPRK very interesting - perhaps because the economy of the country is so underdeveloped, so the railways tend to carry a lot of unique cargoes!
 

Taunton

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"Gratuities for your guides and driver (we would recommend a figure of around EUR 10 per customer per day)" as well as the Euro or Dollar being the standard currency for visitors in shops and similar).
That just sounds completely unlikely. The current typical wages in North Korea are EUR 25 per week. For a week's trip, 7 days with say 30 people in the group that's a scoop of EUR 2,100, or close to a year's pay, for both the driver and the guide. Of course, they would see nothing of it, it will all be siphoned off from them by higher-up officials.

Euros are not well known outside key tourist places, the most used foreign currency is the Chinese Yuan. There is inevitably some US Dollar trade. Change for foreigners is normally given in North Korean Won.
 

mike57

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This trip sounds really interesting, putting aside concerns about how North Korea is run. However, anyone with any level of UK security clearance for their work is not permitted to travel to N Korea without approval. I'm not sure how widely the net spreads, but tread carefully.
 

Vespa

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I must admit I find myself always rather in two minds about this sort of thing. It seems like it would be a fascinating place to visit (and indeed the itinerary from 2019 looks excellent, I have some memory of seeing it before so I suspect it was posted here at the time!). But there is the ethical dimension of visiting a brutal dictatorship, having to pay homage to the dictator and his family (from Day 2: "where the group can pay their respects to the country’s leaders" which by my understanding is mandatory for tourists), helping to continue an illusion that North Korea is something other than an impoverished repressive dictatorship and, even if only a small amount, providing hard foreign currency to the regime (note from the not included costs: "Gratuities for your guides and driver (we would recommend a figure of around EUR 10 per customer per day)" as well as the Euro or Dollar being the standard currency for visitors in shops and similar).

Like I say, two minds. It would, I'm sure, be a fantastic trip to a fascinating country but I do think it's tricky to separate it from the ethical side of things.
When I was there we were never asked to pay gratuities every day, the only thing money exchanged hands was when I swapped some british coins for NK coins with my guide and 10€ at the end of the trip, that was it it wasn't compulsory, it could be your tour company recommendations, mine never did they just said you can If you wish at the end of the tour tip the guide.

I was in an interesting group 3 Germans and 1 Brit (me), 2 guides one speaking German the other in English, my guide is quite an interesting guy ex army travelled as far as Communist Hungary, been to China so he is very aware of conditions outside but choose to remain in NK as his son is in the military, never mentioned my military connections of course, many TA soldiers have visited and never had a problem.

The Pyongyang underground uses ex Berlin trains and the stations are very deep as it doubles as a bomb shelter, they are huge stations, it is rumoured there is a special branch with its own station for the leader.

The railway system is interesting using older second hand stocks, we travelled to Dangdong very interesting journey, for a country hammered by the Korean war it has built itself up very quickly, its not perfect at least it functions better than some countries in Africa.

At one time Seoul -Pyongyang were connected now separated with Dorasan station on the South side which I visited on another trip to the South you can get a souvenir stamp on your passport at Dorasan, the North won't stamp your passport in case it causes you bother visiting the South so I took a photo of my visa instead.

Very interesting trip.
 

ainsworth74

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That just sounds completely unlikely. The current typical wages in North Korea are EUR 25 per week. For a week's trip, 7 days with say 30 people in the group that's a scoop of EUR 2,100, or close to a year's pay, for both the driver and the guide. Of course, they would see nothing of it, it will all be siphoned off from them by higher-up officials.

Yes that's exactly what I was thinking as well...

When I was there we were never asked to pay gratuities every day, the only thing money exchanged hands was when I swapped some british coins for NK coins with my guide and 10€ at the end of the trip, that was it it wasn't compulsory, it could be your tour company recommendations, mine never did they just said you can If you wish at the end of the tour tip the guide.

It did seem a little extravagant I have to say when I read it in that 2019 trip itinerary!

Very interesting trip.

It sounds like it and indeed why I'd be so tempted to go.
 

Calthrop

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The programme as per link, certainly tells of much that's of potential interest (a good deal hitherto unknown, anyway to me): in what is in the nature of things a little-known country, but one with a busy rail scene. My circumstances are such that a visit to North Korea, the only way Westerners can achieve that, would be unaffordable; but "if I could, I very likely would". However -- I being, re circumstances worldwide as they are nowadays, a virtually impossible-to-please railway enthusiast: with limited interest in the modern rail scene / equipment; and mostly lukewarm about steam action unless it's in genuine everyday commercial service (a thing which has all but disappeared from the world) -- I think I'd choose a non-specialist, "bog-standard" tour of the country (which hopefully would include, anyway, some rail travel); prime reason for the visit for me, would be to experience a country which is, to put it relatively politely, uniquely weird. The "ethical" aspect, as mentioned by @ainsworth74, would bother me a little; but not enough, I think, to (had I the means) dissuade me from going.

I was in an interesting group 3 Germans and 1 Brit (me), 2 guides one speaking German the other in English, my guide is quite an interesting guy ex army travelled as far as Communist Hungary, been to China so he is very aware of conditions outside but choose to remain in NK as his son is in the military, never mentioned my military connections of course, many TA soldiers have visited and never had a problem.

I've gathered -- from accounts I've read, of tours to NK -- that the "guides / minders" often seem to be very decent sorts: with a nice sense of humour, and often apt to cut absolutely as much slack to their charges, as they dare to.


Can anyone furnish any more information about the programme's mentioned "Puruso Japanese built" steam locos, which would appear to be in regular daily use at Chongjin steelworks? These are seemingly an instance of what is now vanishingly rare in the world -- steam in totally genuine workaday service. The other steam doings mentioned in the programme have, to my bigoted eyes, an aspect of being essentially "plastic / circus" stuff.
 
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Gag Halfrunt

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Can anyone furnish any more information about the programme's mentioned "Puruso Japanese built" steam locos, which would appear to be in regular daily use at Chongjin steelworks?

That would be the Puresa (Japanese name) or Purŏsŏ (North Korean name) class. They were 2-6-2 (Prairie) tank engines built by Borsig in 1911-1912. Wikipedia has an article, as it does for all the colonial-era steam locomotive classes in Korea.


P.S. Two photos from a railtour in North Korea.
 
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Calthrop

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That would be the Puresa (Japanese name) or Purŏsŏ (North Korean name) class. They were 2-6-2 (Prairie) tank engines built by Borsig in 1911-1912. Wikipedia has an article, as it does for all the colonial-era steam locomotive classes in Korea.


Many thanks ! On this board: no matter how way-out the subject -- someone will have knowledge of it, and be willing to share same.
 

gazthomas

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I must admit I find myself always rather in two minds about this sort of thing. It seems like it would be a fascinating place to visit (and indeed the itinerary from 2019 looks excellent, I have some memory of seeing it before so I suspect it was posted here at the time!). But there is the ethical dimension of visiting a brutal dictatorship, having to pay homage to the dictator and his family (from Day 2: "where the group can pay their respects to the country’s leaders" which by my understanding is mandatory for tourists), helping to continue an illusion that North Korea is something other than an impoverished repressive dictatorship and, even if only a small amount, providing hard foreign currency to the regime (note from the not included costs: "Gratuities for your guides and driver (we would recommend a figure of around EUR 10 per customer per day)" as well as the Euro or Dollar being the standard currency for visitors in shops and similar).

Like I say, two minds. It would, I'm sure, be a fantastic trip to a fascinating country but I do think it's tricky to separate it from the ethical side of things.
I am in exactly the sample place as you. As I talk to friends and family and indeed other forum members and in doing so we are raising awareness of the plight of people in North Korea.

Yes that's exactly what I was thinking as well...



It did seem a little extravagant I have to say when I read it in that 2019 trip itinerary!



It sounds like it and indeed why I'd be so tempted to go.
I think it would be fascinating. At this stage I'm trying to ge a sense of how many people would be interested, the tour operator said they would want a minimum of 20 participants for it to be viable.

When I was there we were never asked to pay gratuities every day, the only thing money exchanged hands was when I swapped some british coins for NK coins with my guide and 10€ at the end of the trip, that was it it wasn't compulsory, it could be your tour company recommendations, mine never did they just said you can If you wish at the end of the tour tip the guide.

I was in an interesting group 3 Germans and 1 Brit (me), 2 guides one speaking German the other in English, my guide is quite an interesting guy ex army travelled as far as Communist Hungary, been to China so he is very aware of conditions outside but choose to remain in NK as his son is in the military, never mentioned my military connections of course, many TA soldiers have visited and never had a problem.

The Pyongyang underground uses ex Berlin trains and the stations are very deep as it doubles as a bomb shelter, they are huge stations, it is rumoured there is a special branch with its own station for the leader.

The railway system is interesting using older second hand stocks, we travelled to Dangdong very interesting journey, for a country hammered by the Korean war it has built itself up very quickly, its not perfect at least it functions better than some countries in Africa.

At one time Seoul -Pyongyang were connected now separated with Dorasan station on the South side which I visited on another trip to the South you can get a souvenir stamp on your passport at Dorasan, the North won't stamp your passport in case it causes you bother visiting the South so I took a photo of my visa instead.

Very interesting trip.
Thanks for sharing your experience Vespa.

Visited the DMZ from the south side by coach in 2015 - great experience. Would love to go on a tour like this if I can convince the other half it's a good idea.
I'm having the same challenge, though she has agreed to drop me off at the airport as I go on my merry way!
 
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jamesr

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I have also visited North Korea, and tended to pay tips and gratuities in the form of boxes of western cigarettes. I recall we did tip the driver at the end of the trip, but I don’t recall this being a considerable amount. My experience was that Renminbi was the easiest currency to use, and failing that everything cost precisely 5 Euros (there are no coins, and no change) - we were continually told they wouldn’t take USD (they aren’t the best of friends…) and it was illegal for foreigners to use the North Korean Won (I got some in the end, but it was hard work…).

I’d recommend a trip to North Korea to anyone who is prepared to be a little out of their comfort zone. You do have to spend five minutes at every venue listening to a background story about the Kims, and you do at times feel uncomfortable and desperately sad for the North Koreans, stuck in this bizarre country. You won’t get much say about where you go, what time you set off, what you see, what you eat, or how long you spend there. You’ll also have more kimchi than any person should ever eat.

But it is amazing - it is like visiting the 1950s. There is little in the way of electronics in the whole country, everything is stuck in a time warp. The people (to the extent we were allowed to interact) were lovely, including the government guides. It felt safe as long as you were willing to play by their rules (don’t ask difficult questions).

The railway was incredible - we had a train out of Pyongyang with an old-school American style ‘balcony’ (I can’t think of the right word!) at the end of the last carriage. I sat out there for about three hours watching the scenery disappear behind. The track was in a poor condition, but had been lined with small white pebbles on each side on the edge of ballast, every 10cm, for mile after mile. Quite bizarre, like everything else in the country.

To me the moral justification is that I have a strong belief that a lot of North Koreans have little visibility of the world beyond its borders. The more we extend a friendly hand, even a wave from a train window, we make a very early step at convincing the North Koreans that we are not that different, and we are not the evil imperialist swines their government portrays us to be. Nobody ever became greater friends by not contacting each other.

I would be keen to do another trip if it were to head up to the east coast and Chongjin.
 

gazthomas

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I have also visited North Korea, and tended to pay tips and gratuities in the form of boxes of western cigarettes. I recall we did tip the driver at the end of the trip, but I don’t recall this being a considerable amount. My experience was that Renminbi was the easiest currency to use, and failing that everything cost precisely 5 Euros (there are no coins, and no change) - we were continually told they wouldn’t take USD (they aren’t the best of friends…) and it was illegal for foreigners to use the North Korean Won (I got some in the end, but it was hard work…).

I’d recommend a trip to North Korea to anyone who is prepared to be a little out of their comfort zone. You do have to spend five minutes at every venue listening to a background story about the Kims, and you do at times feel uncomfortable and desperately sad for the North Koreans, stuck in this bizarre country. You won’t get much say about where you go, what time you set off, what you see, what you eat, or how long you spend there. You’ll also have more kimchi than any person should ever eat.

But it is amazing - it is like visiting the 1950s. There is little in the way of electronics in the whole country, everything is stuck in a time warp. The people (to the extent we were allowed to interact) were lovely, including the government guides. It felt safe as long as you were willing to play by their rules (don’t ask difficult questions).

The railway was incredible - we had a train out of Pyongyang with an old-school American style ‘balcony’ (I can’t think of the right word!) at the end of the last carriage. I sat out there for about three hours watching the scenery disappear behind. The track was in a poor condition, but had been lined with small white pebbles on each side on the edge of ballast, every 10cm, for mile after mile. Quite bizarre, like everything else in the country.

To me the moral justification is that I have a strong believe that a lot of North Koreans have little visibility of the world beyond its borders. The more we extend a friendly hand, even a wave from a train window, we make a very early step at convincing the North Koreans that we are not that different, and we are not the evil imperialist swines their government portrays us to be. Nobody ever became greater friends by not contacting each other.

I would be keen to do another trip if it were to head up to the east coast and Chongjin.
Thanks for sharing your experience Jamesr
 

Roast Veg

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I'm having the same challenge, though she has agreed to drop me off at the airport as I go on my merry way!
My challenge is altogether different - my SO would like to come too, but I don't think her strictly vegetarian diet would make for an enjoyable experience!
 

Calthrop

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To me the moral justification is that I have a strong belief that a lot of North Koreans have little visibility of the world beyond its borders. The more we extend a friendly hand, even a wave from a train window, we make a very early step at convincing the North Koreans that we are not that different, and we are not the evil imperialist swines their government portrays us to be. Nobody ever became greater friends by not contacting each other.

This in a nutshell, is part of the pro-and-con about recreational visits to nasty tyrannical countries, is it not? Your view, given above; versus: by going there "for fun", one is implying acceptance of the governing regime, and benefiting their exchequer to assist in their doing further and nastier stuff. It's a difficult one ... a while ago, I started a thread on "General Discussion", re going to horrible totalitarian countries for "railfanning" purposes: it got quite acrimonious.
 

XAM2175

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I started a thread on "General Discussion", re going to horrible totalitarian countries for "railfanning" purposes: it got quite acrimonious.
... because you said that you'd have been perfectly happy to visit Nazi Germany and/or Stalinist Russia in the late 1930s in full knowledge of all the human rights abuses occurring in those times, so long as you had immunity from prosecution and/or persecution; and then tried to justify this position by claiming that you "don't do" current affairs and that you're irritated by how the media is "incessant" in "force-feeding" news of said current affairs to the populace.
 

Calthrop

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Yes, that was asking for condemnation on my part; though something which -- or its equivalent -- people have done: without, in my view, its making them fiends. However; should have let that envisagedly sleeping dog lie, shouldn't I?
 

Gostav

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This in a nutshell, is part of the pro-and-con about recreational visits to nasty tyrannical countries, is it not? Your view, given above; versus: by going there "for fun", one is implying acceptance of the governing regime, and benefiting their exchequer to assist in their doing further and nastier stuff. It's a difficult one ... a while ago, I started a thread on "General Discussion", re going to horrible totalitarian countries for "railfanning" purposes: it got quite acrimonious.
Nowadays, I don’t think a British railway enthusiast can exert any influence on a regime he doesn’t like.
 

James James

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This trip sounds really interesting, putting aside concerns about how North Korea is run. However, anyone with any level of UK security clearance for their work is not permitted to travel to N Korea without approval. I'm not sure how widely the net spreads, but tread carefully.
More significantly it could also cause trouble with travel to the USA. In theory you can't get an ESTA anymore*, so you'd need to apply for Visas - which would be problematic if you have to go there regularly on business (and inconvenient for irregular travel).

* The application asks you whether you've been to certain countries.
 

Vespa

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More significantly it could also cause trouble with travel to the USA. In theory you can't get an ESTA anymore*, so you'd need to apply for Visas - which would be problematic if you have to go there regularly on business (and inconvenient for irregular travel).

* The application asks you whether you've been to certain countries
Never heard that before.

I have visited the US several times since I visited the DPRK and filled in old visa waiver cards and online ESTA, never had an issue entering the country.

North Korea is unlikely to share any information with America anyway.
 

subk2010

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It's a great idea to visit North Korea by Rail, but there is one important thing that needs to be considered is the restrictions of border control in Mainland China. Only residents, Business visa holders, and Humanitarian visa holders are allowed to enter Mainland China now, and it is predicted that this policy will continue until 2023. Both China and North Korea have strict exit and entry management policies, so it is conceivable that entry will become very difficult in recent years.

Personally, I am not optimistic about the resume of international passenger trains in the recent 2 years. It might be a better idea if you consider the journey after the Winter Olympics as there might be new exit & entry policies which is beneficial for tourists.
 
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