North Lakes Railway

[najaB]

However I fear we may be slightly off topic....

Indeed. But anyway...

I wonder if the work and materials had been of the highest quality - as presumably at Mosedale - would the original single track Tay Bridge still be there?

I thought the Board of Trade enquiry found that the design was deficient (it was designed to withstand a wind load just 20% of that it would experience) and even without the defects in construction, failure wasn't just an option, it was inevitable.

And now back to your thread in progress...

 

[QueensCurve]

Worse still, Sir Thomas Bouch was also the engineer to the first Tay bridge. That was not to be the highlight of his career.

It did get him a Knighthood, but it was of course to turn sour on the Last Sabbath Day of 1879.

 

[yorksrob]

The Borders Railway is a "huge success" because people want to commute into Edinburgh for work, and travel there for shopping, entertainment, culture etc etc

With all due respect Penrith is not Edinburgh!

With all due respect, rail services don't have to terminate in cities to be valuable to the community!

 

[najaB]

With all due respect, rail services don't have to terminate in cities to be valuable to the community!

Agreed. However it helps to have a large city or two somewhere along the route to generate the passenger numbers that will make it commercially viable.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed. However it helps to have a large city or two somewhere along the route to generate the passenger numbers that will make it commercially viable.

It does, but if we follow that logic, we're back to Serpell!

 

[najaB]

It does, but if we follow that logic, we're back to Serpell!

That's true to an extent. But the thing is that the social utility argument alone is strong enough to justify the cost of keeping a railway open, it is much less convincing when looking at tens or hundreds of millions to (re)open one. Especially when weighing a project against one that also has a strong business case on its side.

 

[6Gman]

With all due respect, rail services don't have to terminate in cities to be valuable to the community!

Indeed, but I was quoting the OP.

 

[Rail Ranger]

A reopened rail service from Keswick would have to run through to Carlisle (at least) to be viable.

 

[thenorthern]

Someone I used to know was employed by British Rail to take down the railways bridges in Keswick when the line closed and the Water Company said at the time that if any British Rail employee dropped anything as large as a spanner in the river then they would be sued.

I think it was because of the type of water or something similar but I am not sure if the regulations are still in place.

 

[yorksrob]

That's true to an extent. But the thing is that the social utility argument alone is strong enough to justify the cost of keeping a railway open, it is much less convincing when looking at tens or hundreds of millions to (re)open one. Especially when weighing a project against one that also has a strong business case on its side.

True, but the lake district has other things going for it, notably the need for tourist access whilst controlling traffic.

 

[najaB]

True, but the lake district has other things going for it, notably the need for tourist access whilst controlling traffic.

If it's for mainly about tourist access, does it have to be rail? More specifically does it have to be heavy rail? Light rail, narrow gauge, gondola lifts, self-driving pods - there are other cheaper yet just as effective options.

 

[yorksrob]

If it's for mainly about tourist access, does it have to be rail? More specifically does it have to be heavy rail? Light rail, narrow gauge, gondola lifts, self-driving pods - there are other cheaper yet just as effective options.

What is light rail. Time was when light rail systems were connected parts of the national railway network (the East Kent railway being in use up until the 1980's and part of the Callington line in use currently).

Why not have a light railway construction in this sense to keep costs down, i.e. not constructed for regular 125 mph InterCity trains, but still have it open to the railway network for the odd tour or even a couple of through trains

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yeah, I think building to tram standards but as part of the NR ticketing system may make sense for new branches. Could even wire it. As for other modes - bus is surprisingly ineffective due to the terrible traffic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You could argue for instance that converting the Windermere branch to tram then running down the road to Bowness would have a huge benefit and might well take many cars off the road of the National Park.

 

[yorksrob]

Yeah, I think building to tram standards but as part of the NR ticketing system may make sense for new branches. Could even wire it. As for other modes - bus is surprisingly ineffective due to the terrible traffic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You could argue for instance that converting the Windermere branch to tram then running down the road to Bowness would have a huge benefit and might well take many cars off the road of the National Park.

That's an interesting point, although I suspect part of the value of the Windermere branch is that it has some through trains to the urban areas, so I don't know how that would combine with tram-train type operations.

Nevertheless, if you were opening it now, you probably wouldn't build it heavily.

Looking at the borders railway, it seems very heavy duty, and I don't think a Keswick reopening would need quite so much concrete.

 

[Howardh]

Windermere/Bowness/(Ambleside)
I'd be interested to learn what % of visitors there actually go on to any other part of the Lakes? To me that area is rather crowded but once away the numbers are far less.
Those areas are catered for by the 555 and other buses if you arrive on the train....but there's little else away from that corridor. 516 will occasionally get one from the station to Langdale.
I'm surprised there isn't greater effort to get people from the station to the more remote areas, and get them back of course! This would reduce some of the crowding of the honeypot areas and possibly benefit other areas in need of the tourist £?

 

[billio]

Windermere/Bowness/(Ambleside)
I'm surprised there isn't greater effort to get people from the station to the more remote areas, and get them back of course! This would reduce some of the crowding of the honeypot areas and possibly benefit other areas in need of the tourist £?

Possibly due to the fact that Cumbria CC doesn't subsidise any bus services and is quite happy to see towns and villages left without public transport if a commercial bus company cannot provide a service. For example, see Shap. (I think I may have mentioned this before.)

 

[QueensCurve]

The Borders Railway is a "huge success" because people want to commute into Edinburgh for work, and travel there for shopping, entertainment, culture etc etc

With all due respect Penrith is not Edinburgh!

Penrith isn't Edinburgh, but it is on the WCML. Potentially a fraction of the tourists who visit Keswick (a pleasant town when there were shops other than outdoor clothing) might use trains to reach their destination rather than cars.

The fact that people coming to visit Keswick come from the south as raised in another post is a red-herring.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

A reopened rail service from Keswick would have to run through to Carlisle (at least) to be viable.

Why?

A through service beyond Penrith may be the optimum way of providing the service, but it is possible to change trains and make connections.

And why to Carlisle? Why not have some services from Manchester Airport using Keswick as their destination either instead of or in addition to those which serve Windermere.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Yeah, I think building to tram standards but as part of the NR ticketing system may make sense for new branches. Could even wire it. As for other modes - bus is surprisingly ineffective due to the terrible traffic.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
You could argue for instance that converting the Windermere branch to tram then running down the road to Bowness would have a huge benefit and might well take many cars off the road of the National Park.

Historically it was the Poet's Protest that made "Windermere" the terminus of the line and not Ambleside.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

This is one aspiration I fully support. A link through to Workington would be ideal for connectivity, however most of the formation around Bassenthwaite Lake has had a dual carriageway plonked on it unfortunately, so unlikely to make it over there.

That was the Cockermouth and Workington Railway that had stations at Brigham, Broughton Cross, Camerton, Workington Bridge before finally arriving at Workington station on the main coastal line.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Why not have some services from Manchester Airport using Keswick as their destination either instead of or in addition to those which serve Windermere.

Unless I am mistaken, there are plans afoot to electrify the Windermere branch line, which would mean no diesels eventually having to go under the wires on the WCML.

Would there be any major problems envisaged in the wish to electrify the aspirational branch line that is the subject of this thread from Penrith to Keswick.

 

[Rail Ranger]

Two points. Firstly if the Penrith-Keswick line were to be reopened as a tramway/light rail, that would preclude any through running to and from the branch, also the conversion of the Watford Junction to St Albans line to a tramway was thwarted largely because of the difficulty in negotiating through ticketing to and from the national rail network. Presumably similar problems would be encountered with Keswick. Cedric Martindale, who leads the campaign to re-open to Keswick, has said that any future train service from Keswick would have to run through at least to Carlisle and I agree with him. Having to change trains (with the risk of missing conections) is a major disincentive to the use of rail. Carlisle is of course a major employment and shopping centre and has a wide range of connecting services. The previous train service which only ran between Penrith and Keswick until 1972 was clearly not viable then and a similar service would probably not be viable in the future.

 

[yorksrob]

Two points. Firstly if the Penrith-Keswick line were to be reopened as a tramway/light rail, that would preclude any through running to and from the branch, also the conversion of the Watford Junction to St Albans line to a tramway was thwarted largely because of the difficulty in negotiating through ticketing to and from the national rail network. Presumably similar problems would be encountered with Keswick. Cedric Martindale, who leads the campaign to re-open to Keswick, has said that any future train service from Keswick would have to run through at least to Carlisle and I agree with him. Having to change trains (with the risk of missing conections) is a major disincentive to the use of rail. Carlisle is of course a major employment and shopping centre and has a wide range of connecting services. The previous train service which only ran between Penrith and Keswick until 1972 was clearly not viable then and a similar service would probably not be viable in the future.

I mean 'light rail' in the early 20th century sense of being less heavily engineered and signalled than the main line, rather than a separate system with separate ticketing etc.

 

[cuccir]

I'm surprised there isn't greater effort to get people from the station to the more remote areas, and get them back of course! This would reduce some of the crowding of the honeypot areas and possibly benefit other areas in need of the tourist £?

It's a fairly deliberate strategy, and you used the word 'Honeypot' yourself! By concentrating tourism along the Kendal-Keswick corridor, the Lake District National Park is attempting to both serve its conservationist function and accessibility function. While tourist money is obviously important, I don't think anyone would want the Duddon, Esk or Wasdale valleys to become as busy as those to the east!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Historically it was the Poet's Protest that made "Windermere" the terminus of the line and not Ambleside.

Indeed (and stopped it being the WCML proper). But views are very different today.

 

[QueensCurve]

Windermere/Bowness/(Ambleside)
I'd be interested to learn what % of visitors there actually go on to any other part of the Lakes?

I would have thought this work would have been done either by Cumbria County Council or the Lake District National Park Authority.

Sadly there doesn't seem to be much in the way of hard data available online.

 

[deltic08]

My mothers family lived in Workington and I spent all my holidays there until 1966, the year the Workington-Keswick section closed.

The reason this section closed was Beechings ignorance of what was later to be called contributory revenue and the fact that station surveys were done in February deliberately.

Revenue from fare boxes on the line was perhaps low between September and Easter but in the Summer additional local trains were run on Sundays from Whitehaven to Keswick. These were loco-hauled with up to eight coaches and full every Sunday by the time they left Workington.

On Summer Saturdays there were timetabled and excursion trains from Newcastle, Manchester and Birmingham between Penrith and Keswick and London right through to Workington as the 'Lakes Express'. At Easter during Keswick Convention there could be up to five through trains from London. It was not uncommon for Royal Scots and Jubilees to work right through to Keswick on all these trains and Keswick could be quite congested in the carriage sidings and turntable area on the west side of the station. I never saw a Britannia or Stanier Pacific on these trains but there were rumours of a Clan Pacific working a train.

Axle loading restrictions onwards to Cockermouth and Workington prevented these trains from running through to Workington ECS for stabling there if there wasn't a quick turnround for a return service.

When Workington-Keswick closed in 1966 and was lifted, the carriage sidings and turntable were not available. By 1968, there wasn't even a run round facility and any excursion had to be top and tailed. 1968 was the last year I saw a Convention special as they had dwindled to only one and of course the Lakes Express no longer ran after 1965 as the Workington line closed before the 1966 Summer timetable.

The point is that for all additional through trains and connecting local trains at Penrith, visitors to Keswick bought their return tickets somewhere else on the network that didn't show in the Keswick station farebox that Beeching looked at to assess his cuts. A similar thing happened at seaside resorts that have lost their rail service also.

Even before Penrith-Keswick closed in 1972, those that travelled to Keswick previously by through trains had already transferred to car and road coach as the facility had been withdrawn. No only did Keswick station lose but the overall revenue to BR reduced because of modal shift caused by Beeching in the first place.

The M6 motorway and improved A595, now A66, had also arrived in 1967/68. Ironically, in 1974, introduction of the Electric Scots knocked an hour off London-Penrith journey times with through trains every two hours. The best service Penrith had ever had.

I think a reinstated, modern signalled, electrified railway with good quality rolling stock and reduced journey times to Penrith/Carlisle capable of taking through trains/portions would be a winner. Off line deviations around parts that are now under the A66 is no problem even along Bassenthwaite Lake as Victorian trackbeds are taken apart nowadays and are virtually new build anyway as shown with Borders line reinstatement for approximately £8m/mile.

For the doubters, a facility can't be used unless it is there and Benefit/Cost analysis has been shown to be wrong in nearly every reinstatement case. Build it and they will come.

 

[QueensCurve]

ven before Penrith-Keswick closed in 1972, those that travelled to Keswick previously by through trains had already transferred to car and road coach as the facility had been withdrawn. No only did Keswick station lose but the overall revenue to BR reduced because of modal shift caused by Beeching in the first place. Ironically, in 1974, introduction of the Electric Scots knocked an hour off London-Penrith journey times with through trains every two hours. The best service Penrith had ever had.

Last train from Keswick to Penrith: 19 March 1972. I was on that train.

 

[deltic08]

Last train from Keswick to Penrith: 19 March 1972. I was on that train.

I used Workington-Keswick a few weeks before closure in 1966, but I couldn't bear to ride Keswick-Penrith in 1972 as I was too upset and angry at the shear stupidity of closure just before electrification of the WCML would have increased ridership.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

... The previous train service which only ran between Penrith and Keswick until 1972 was clearly not viable then and a similar service would probably not be viable in the future.

That's a rather limited view, to be fair. The loadings might not have been great in 1972 but the world is a very different place now. Road congestion is far worse for one thing. The same could be said of many other closures of the 1960s and 1970s, Holmfirth being one that springs to mind, though the missing viaduct and houses on the formation at Brockholes mean it'll never come back, sadly. The line North of Brockholes would need doubling too, but I'm getting off topic now...

Through services to Carlisle (or Preston with reversal at Penrith) would be preferable for sure, but Penrith is already announced as "Penrith for the North Lakes" so it clearly acts as a railhead for surrounding towns. Even as an out-and-back shuttle I imagine it would (as the majority of other reopenings have) outstrip current usage estimates. Has usage of the Windermere branch fallen significantly since most services only work to and from the junction station at Oxenholme?

 

[yorksrob]

My mothers family lived in Workington and I spent all my holidays there until 1966, the year the Workington-Keswick section closed.

The reason this section closed was Beechings ignorance of what was later to be called contributory revenue and the fact that station surveys were done in February deliberately.

Revenue from fare boxes on the line was perhaps low between September and Easter but in the Summer additional local trains were run on Sundays from Whitehaven to Keswick. These were loco-hauled with up to eight coaches and full every Sunday by the time they left Workington.

On Summer Saturdays there were timetabled and excursion trains from Newcastle, Manchester and Birmingham between Penrith and Keswick and London right through to Workington as the 'Lakes Express'. At Easter during Keswick Convention there could be up to five through trains from London. It was not uncommon for Royal Scots and Jubilees to work right through to Keswick on all these trains and Keswick could be quite congested in the carriage sidings and turntable area on the west side of the station. I never saw a Britannia or Stanier Pacific on these trains but there were rumours of a Clan Pacific working a train.

Axle loading restrictions onwards to Cockermouth and Workington prevented these trains from running through to Workington ECS for stabling there if there wasn't a quick turnround for a return service.

When Workington-Keswick closed in 1966 and was lifted, the carriage sidings and turntable were not available. By 1968, there wasn't even a run round facility and any excursion had to be top and tailed. 1968 was the last year I saw a Convention special as they had dwindled to only one and of course the Lakes Express no longer ran after 1965 as the Workington line closed before the 1966 Summer timetable.

The point is that for all additional through trains and connecting local trains at Penrith, visitors to Keswick bought their return tickets somewhere else on the network that didn't show in the Keswick station farebox that Beeching looked at to assess his cuts. A similar thing happened at seaside resorts that have lost their rail service also.

Even before Penrith-Keswick closed in 1972, those that travelled to Keswick previously by through trains had already transferred to car and road coach as the facility had been withdrawn. No only did Keswick station lose but the overall revenue to BR reduced because of modal shift caused by Beeching in the first place.

The M6 motorway and improved A595, now A66, had also arrived in 1967/68. Ironically, in 1974, introduction of the Electric Scots knocked an hour off London-Penrith journey times with through trains every two hours. The best service Penrith had ever had.

I think a reinstated, modern signalled, electrified railway with good quality rolling stock and reduced journey times to Penrith/Carlisle capable of taking through trains/portions would be a winner. Off line deviations around parts that are now under the A66 is no problem even along Bassenthwaite Lake as Victorian trackbeds are taken apart nowadays and are virtually new build anyway as shown with Borders line reinstatement for approximately £8m/mile.

For the doubters, a facility can't be used unless it is there and Benefit/Cost analysis has been shown to be wrong in nearly every reinstatement case. Build it and they will come.

One of the best posts I've read for some time.

Beeching apologists should take note !

 

[Chester1]

One of the best posts I've read for some time.

Beeching apologists should take note !

I disagree, it was a post based nearly entirely on emotion. I really like the area and have stayed near Keswick on several occasions. I also, can easily believe there used to be a huge number of peak season specials. That doesn't mean I can buy that there is a good regular market or that many special services would start. Based on the bus service, the best it could support would be an hourly shuttle service, perhaps 3 coaches peak season and 2 the rest. Thats below the threshold for rebuilding a line i.e. Borders rail or electrification. Ebbw Vale had a freight line in situ, so reinstating with only an hourly service could be justified.

 

[yorksrob]

I disagree, it was a post based nearly entirely on emotion. I really like the area and have stayed near Keswick on several occasions. I also, can easily believe there used to be a huge number of peak season specials. That doesn't mean I can buy that there is a good regular market or that many special services would start. Based on the bus service, the best it could support would be an hourly shuttle service, perhaps 3 coaches peak season and 2 the rest. Thats below the threshold for rebuilding a line i.e. Borders rail or electrification. Ebbw Vale had a freight line in situ, so reinstating with only an hourly service could be justified.

Not at all.

deltic08 gave a very good appraisal of the underhand and short sighted tactics that led to the withdrawal of the original service, and have blighted the area as a consequence.

Were it not for the justified anger of individuals, the Establishment would be able to run roughshod over the interests of the population.