North London Line

[MatthewRead]

The North London line use to be third rail throughout when was the third rail partially replaced by overhead wires?

 

[PeterC]

I think it was 1988 with the first section from Stratford to Dalston and then of the freight line through to Camden.

 

[Bald Rick]

@ChiefPlanner has all the details, but...

Primrose Hill to Kings Cross Freightliner terminal (just east of Camden Rd) was done in the 60s as part of the WCML electrification, albeit this was electrified on both systems, and the OLE was only used by freight under normal circumstances.

Stratford to Camden Rd was done for freight in the late 80s which is why only the old No1 lines were done between Dalston and Camden. Again it was dual electrified from Dalston to Channelsea Jn, which caused no end of trouble for the signal engineers.

Camden to Mitre Bridge Jn via Gospel Oak was done for the North of London Eurostars, I forget the exact date but early 90s. The needed a lengthy block of Hampstead Tunnel IIRC (the first of two, the other being for higher gauge freight a few years later). I’m reasonably sure the AC was taken to Acton Central at the same time. The D.C. equipment was removed and only trains with AC capability could operate from that point.

Then finally the old No2 lines from Dalston were completely rebuilt, including AC electrification, in 2010; this also included removing all the D.C. equipment east of Camden. I forget the exact date that the old line from Channelsea to Stratford was abandoned and handed over for the DLR, but it was around the same time.

 

[randyrippley]

The North London line use to be third rail throughout when was the third rail partially replaced by overhead wires?

Actually..........it was electrified on the fourth rail system until the mid 1970's or later

 

[Taunton]

I can remember going right round from Richmond to North Woolwich, must have been early-mid 1990s, and there being four changeovers. 3rd rail at both ends but there was also some in the middle, spliced by two overhead sections. Someone better informed will be able to give the changeover stations. The Class 313 pantograph, which I had unwittingly sat underneath, made quite a hiss and a series of bangs as it was raised or lowered.

Were there ever incidents when the changeover was forgotten?

 

[Bald Rick]

I can remember going right round from Richmond to North Woolwich, must have been early-mid 1990s, and there being four changeovers. 3rd rail at both ends but there was also some in the middle, spliced by two overhead sections. Someone better informed will be able to give the changeover stations. The Class 313 pantograph, which I had unwittingly sat underneath, made quite a hiss and a series of bangs as it was raised or lowered.

Were there ever incidents when the changeover was forgotten?

From the AC electrification of Acton to Camden in the mid 90s, the changeovers were at Acton Central (Pan Up), Camden Road (Down), Dalston Kingsland (up), and Hackney Wick (down).

Between Dalston and Hackney Wick the 313s could stay on D.C., but reduced power take due to protection the signalling from the D.C. return currents.

Changeovers were forgotten frequently, and still are. There was one only a couple of weeks ago at Mitre Bridge on the West London Line. Perhaps the most infamous was on the first weekday of London Overground (TfL) operation, when a driver forgot to drop the pan at Hackney Wick, and promptly brought all the wires down at Channelsea Junction.

 

[Taunton]

I do remember reading of the stray currents getting into the signalling at the time, not only along the line but also impacting the Victoria Line 80 feet beneath at Highbury. As this had always been a DC section it must have been some aspect of the AC installation.

In the late 1960s, at Stanford University near San Francisco, some very precise instrumented ellectrical experiment with growing plants was found to have started being wrecked by unknown interference. Their chief clue was it was man-made, because it only happened on Monday to Friday in working hours, not at weekends. They did a whole series of tests to trace it, eventually identifying it was the new BART transit system, which had just begun running tests. Thing was, the nearest point on BART was 5 miles from the research labs. That's how far the currents can go.

 

[Busaholic]

I do remember reading of the stray currents getting into the signalling at the time, not only along the line but also impacting the Victoria Line 80 feet beneath at Highbury. As this had always been a DC section it must have been some aspect of the AC installation.

In the late 1960s, at Stanford University near San Francisco, some very precise instrumented ellectrical experiment with growing plants was found to have started being wrecked by unknown interference. Their chief clue was it was man-made, because it only happened on Monday to Friday in working hours, not at weekends. They did a whole series of tests to trace it, eventually identifying it was the new BART transit system, which had just begun running tests. Thing was, the nearest point on BART was 5 miles from the research labs. That's how far the currents can go.

That's scary, but fascinating.

 

[Bald Rick]

I do remember reading of the stray currents getting into the signalling at the time, not only along the line but also impacting the Victoria Line 80 feet beneath at Highbury. As this had always been a DC section it must have been some aspect of the AC installation.

In the late 1960s, at Stanford University near San Francisco, some very precise instrumented ellectrical experiment with growing plants was found to have started being wrecked by unknown interference. Their chief clue was it was man-made, because it only happened on Monday to Friday in working hours, not at weekends. They did a whole series of tests to trace it, eventually identifying it was the new BART transit system, which had just begun running tests. Thing was, the nearest point on BART was 5 miles from the research labs. That's how far the currents can go.

The old track circuits on the dual electrified section between Dalston and Channelsea Jn were rather unreliable. Matters improved considerably once the 313s started using AC as a matter of course.

 

[randyrippley]

I do remember reading of the stray currents getting into the signalling at the time, not only along the line but also impacting the Victoria Line 80 feet beneath at Highbury. As this had always been a DC section it must have been some aspect of the AC installation.

Maybe not........could the change from fourth rail to third rail have affected that? Presumably a fourth rail return gives a "cleaner" earth than a return via the track??

 

[Ken H]

From the AC electrification of Acton to Camden in the mid 90s, the changeovers were at Acton Central (Pan Up), Camden Road (Down), Dalston Kingsland (up), and Hackney Wick (down).

Between Dalston and Hackney Wick the 313s could stay on D.C., but reduced power take due to protection the signalling from the D.C. return currents.

Changeovers were forgotten frequently, and still are. There was one only a couple of weeks ago at Mitre Bridge on the West London Line. Perhaps the most infamous was on the first weekday of London Overground (TfL) operation, when a driver forgot to drop the pan at Hackney Wick, and promptly brought all the wires down at Channelsea Junction.

at farringdon they took special measures to stop southbound trains going into the tunnel with pan up.

 

[Ken H]

I do remember reading of the stray currents getting into the signalling at the time, not only along the line but also impacting the Victoria Line 80 feet beneath at Highbury. As this had always been a DC section it must have been some aspect of the AC installation.

In the late 1960s, at Stanford University near San Francisco, some very precise instrumented ellectrical experiment with growing plants was found to have started being wrecked by unknown interference. Their chief clue was it was man-made, because it only happened on Monday to Friday in working hours, not at weekends. They did a whole series of tests to trace it, eventually identifying it was the new BART transit system, which had just begun running tests. Thing was, the nearest point on BART was 5 miles from the research labs. That's how far the currents can go.

they were testing current monitoring stuff and looking at the interference generated by thyristor controlled trains. Then a tap changer loco went through and the traces on the monitors went off the scale.
they were looking at class 323 interference. They ran one down cross city south early one cold morning. The arcing at the pan again made massive interference.

 

[Bald Rick]

at farringdon they took special measures to stop southbound trains going into the tunnel with pan up.

What were they? Because I never saw or heard of them. And there are various dents and new panels in the Blackfriars roof to prove it!

 

[Taunton]

I always wondered about the huge Jodrell Bank radio telescope, which is designed to focus and pick up the faintest radiating signals from outer space. It was built in the 1950s, right alongside the Crewe to Manchester line. Where, after a year or two, the 25Kv overhead was installed. It seems questionable whether something designed to pick up the faintest of radiated signals from 9,999,999,999,999 miles away is unaffected by a Class 81 passing a couple of hundred feet away.

 

[Ken H]

What were they? Because I never saw or heard of them. And there are various dents and new panels in the Blackfriars roof to prove it!

This is before the Moorgate line closed. The line into the tunnels was 3rd rail. Think they put up wires towards the tunnel that went over height so the pan auto lowered.

 

[bramling]

What were they? Because I never saw or heard of them. And there are various dents and new panels in the Blackfriars roof to prove it!

ISTR Drayton Park received some measures, but not from day one. Dummy wire running as far as Highbury, and (AIUI) the starting signals having a timing section installed to enforce a station stop.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Actually..........it was electrified on the fourth rail system until the mid 1970's or later

Yes - despite intense briefing and strategically placed operations managers all over the patch for the first few weeks (+ warning notices placed in all 313 cabs) - there were 2 in one day on the West London Line , making NLR the honourary winner of the West London Line lost pan club (taking the trophy off Eurostar and EWS) - we even had issues at Acton Central - and infamously with some empties dropping down at WS23 off the High Level at Willesden (ECS) onto the down DC bay. In the latter case - the arc drew a fire , (as the lost pan short circuited on the juice rails - which burnt out a few signal cables and singed a nearby Bakerloo line train)

To get back to commissioning , I took the first "passenger" AC train from Camden Rd to Hampstead Heath with Glenda Jackson naming 313020 at the latter - Mid June 1996 - (have framed photos) - the West London line opened early to AC , 313009 doing the honours - 10 days before schedule. (though the NL core section Camden to Willesden ran 6 months late as there were structural issues with the viaducts and underlying ballast)

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I think it was 1988 with the first section from Stratford to Dalston and then of the freight line through to Camden.

It was , and funded by Railfreight - they ran a VIP special from Watford Junction to Peterborough with 2 Dining cars and a selection of specially cleaned freight wagons for the great and the good. A very cheap scheme. The original name was "the Electric horseshoe" .....BR at it's best in doing simple schemes.

 

[MatthewRead]

Yes - despite intense briefing and strategically placed operations managers all over the patch for the first few weeks (+ warning notices placed in all 313 cabs) - there were 2 in one day on the West London Line , making NLR the honourary winner of the West London Line lost pan club (taking the trophy off Eurostar and EWS) - we even had issues at Acton Central - and infamously with some empties dropping down at WS23 off the High Level at Willesden (ECS) onto the down DC bay. In the latter case - the arc drew a fire , (as the lost pan short circuited on the juice rails - which burnt out a few signal cables and singed a nearby Bakerloo line train)

To get back to commissioning , I took the first "passenger" AC train from Camden Rd to Hampstead Heath with Glenda Jackson naming 313020 at the latter - Mid June 1996 - (have framed photos) - the West London line opened early to AC , 313009 doing the honours - 10 days before schedule. (though the NL core section Camden to Willesden ran 6 months late as there were structural issues with the viaducts and underlying ballast)

Out of interest when did the West London line become AC?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Out of interest when did the West London line become AC?

Just after the NLL core route ...I never kept a diary as was too busy - mid- Summer 1996.

 

[Taunton]

I didn't think the West London had any DC after the current rails were removed in WW2 (when the frequent service from Willesden Junction into the Underground station at Earls Court was withdrawn).