North TPE May 2014 proposed timetable

[tbtc]

I didn't realise that there was an 'express' service via Bredbury in both directions before posting earlier on

Okay, maybe you understand my reaction to your

I think you're may be getting mixed up about where Romiley is or unsure of the current service pattern

comment then...

 

[pemma]

Okay, maybe you understand my reaction to your comment then...

A lot of people, including myself, get mixed up about how the Marple service has changed. I realise one of the Marple services got switched to Rose Hill Marple not that long ago but only the one train remains routed via Guide Bridge. Someone posting on another forum actually from Marple didn't even realise that one of the Marple services had got switched to Rose Hill!

I saw your post sending 2 via either route and immediately thought that you were changing more than you actually were.

 

[IanXC]

If there is now to be an hourly TPE terminator to York how will platform capacity at York hold up? The south facing bays are already pretty well used with the Hull-York, Blackpool North-York plus the York EC terminators, which could go hourly if the Newarks are extended.

Could the bay next to platform 1 be reinstated? And is it, or platform 1 long enough for a HST\225, to keep the crossing moves down?

 

[Bevan Price]

Further thoughts after a journey today. The loss of the stop at Manchester Oxford Road on the TPE service via Warrington Central is not going to be popular with the many commuters who use Oxford Road as the most convenient station for the Universities area and other businesses in the city centre.

Unless one of the existing "2 per hour" stopping services on the CLC line is to be withdrawn, I find it hard to comprehend how they could find a path for a semi-fast Airport express on this route. With no eastbound loops to permit overtaking, the existing TPE & Liverpool - Norwich services are close behind the prededing local services when they are approaching Manchester, with signal checks being common prior to Deansgate.

 

[Nym]

*coughs very loudly*

Nowhere does it say that MCO is being missed out on the service, it just isn't on that timetable, like so many things on these provisional timetables there are omissions and mistakes.

The pilot TPE NW one shows a 185 doing 160mph via Atherton because of a mistake...!

 

[pemma]

Unless one of the existing "2 per hour" stopping services on the CLC line is to be withdrawn, I find it hard to comprehend how they could find a path for a semi-fast Airport express on this route.

The long term plans for the CLC line including overtaking loops which would allow stoppers to be overtaken by fast trains.

The interim solution seems to be to speed up a retimed xx:27 stopper from Liverpool to Oxford Road and extend it to the Airport. It isn't clear on the exact calling patterns and that's likely something that consultation would be carried on before an exact calling pattern is introduced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Nowhere does it say that MCO is being missed out on the service, it just isn't on that timetable, like so many things on these provisional timetables there are omissions and mistakes.

Good point but comparing it to the current timetable a timing improvement has been made. It specifies which services miss out Liverpool South Parkway and stopping at Warrington Central would like be a certainty - so that probably means either Birchwood or Oxford Road would lose the service.

 

[John55]

The long term plans for the CLC line including overtaking loops which would allow stoppers to be overtaken by fast trains.

The interim solution seems to be to speed up a retimed xx:27 stopper from Liverpool to Oxford Road and extend it to the Airport. It isn't clear on the exact calling patterns and that's likely something that consultation would be carried on before an exact calling pattern is introduced.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---


Good point but comparing it to the current timetable a timing improvement has been made. It specifies which services miss out Liverpool South Parkway and stopping at Warrington Central would like be a certainty - so that probably means either Birchwood or Oxford Road would lose the service.

I have just looked at the current and draft timetable and I cannot see any journey time reduction on the Piccadilly to Lime St via Warrington Central route. The East bound time is 47 minutes now and is proposed to be 47 minutes. Westbound the current time is 51 minutes and it is proposed to be 52 minutes.

The local service on this route is currently awful and needs to be completely started again from scratch. Some years ago under pressure from the local authority the SRA decided the two generally separate local services from Liverpool to Warrington and Manchester to Warrington should be joined together end to end in order to provide direct services between Widnes and Birchwood. The result of this is the inability to run a decent train service at all. There are 2 local services now one which serves the western stations once an hour but very few in the east and the other which does the reverse. Several stations now have one train every 2 hours off peak (Humphrey Park & Trafford Park every 3 hours!) hardly the way to attract traffic. Even Hunt's Cross is missed by alternate local trains.

It seems strange that no effort is made to use the one section of quadruple track on the route to enable better local services to be run. From Lime St the local trains could leave 5 minutes before the TPE & EMT services and be overtaken at West Allerton with overtaking in the other direction at Mossley Hill which happens often enough anyway.

A better solution would be to separate the locals at Warrington and run a decent local service in both directions.

The best solution of course would be to take the third rail (or equivalent) to Warrington from Hunts Cross then there could be a much better service all round even if the Eastern part remained DMU.

 

[pemma]

I have just looked at the current and draft timetable and I cannot see any journey time reduction on the Piccadilly to Lime St via Warrington Central route.

Maybe I looked at departure times instead of arrival times or vice versa.

Even Hunt's Cross is missed by alternate local trains.

Now that the Liverpool-Birmingham, Liverpool-Norwich and Liverpool-Scarborough services call at South Parkway, it makes South Parkway a better interchange option, when 10 years ago Hunts Cross was the better interchange option.

The best solution of course would be to take the third rail (or equivalent) to Warrington from Hunts Cross then there could be a much better service all round even if the Eastern part remained DMU.

Like I said when someone previously suggested that there are two lines between Hunts Cross and Liverpool. What would happen with the local stations on 'City Line' between Lime Street and South Parkway?

 

[John55]

Maybe I looked at departure times instead of arrival times or vice versa.

Now that the Liverpool-Birmingham, Liverpool-Norwich and Liverpool-Scarborough services call at South Parkway, it makes South Parkway a better interchange option, when 10 years ago Hunts Cross was the better interchange option.

Like I said when someone previously suggested that there are two lines between Hunts Cross and Liverpool. What would happen with the local stations on 'City Line' between Lime Street and South Parkway?

Hunts Cross may be an interchange as well but 1.3 million people get on and off trains there which is a bit of a hint that it is a very busy station.

With regard to Mossley Hill and West Allerton if the Warrington service was diverted to Central run other trains. If the Halton curve is reopened run locals through to Runcorn and Chester (which is the original service pattern) and the other option is a diesel shuttle to Hunts Cross.

 

[pemma]

Hunts Cross may be an interchange as well but 1.3 million people get on and off trains there which is a bit of a hint that it is a very busy station.

1.3 million does not make it a very busy station especially when there are 5tph to Liverpool from there. Some of the stations in Cheshire, Lancashire and Derbyshire get more than double the patronage Hunts Cross gets and get 1tph in each direction with a couple of extra peak time services.

 

[John55]

1.3 million does not make it a very busy station especially when there are 5tph to Liverpool from there. Some of the stations in Cheshire, Lancashire and Derbyshire get more than double the patronage Hunts Cross gets and get 1tph in each direction with a couple of extra peak time services.

I think you are wrong, but perhaps you could let us know which stations in Cheshire, Lancashire and Derbyshire have more than 2.5 million passengers per year and generally have one train per hour.

Surprisingly Hunt's Cross is busier than Warrington Central on the CLC line.

 

[pemma]

I think you are wrong, but perhaps you could let us know which stations in Cheshire, Lancashire and Derbyshire have more than 2.5 million passengers per year and generally have one train per hour.

Hunts Cross was actually 1.19 million in 09/10. The big rise in 08/09 was down to PTE tickets being included properly for the first time. Winsford got 1.22 million in 09/10 and off-peak only has a 2 hourly service.

Knutsford with 3.04 million and Buxton with 3.01 million are among the stations which get more than double what Hunts Cross gets (which is 2.38 million not 2.5) with a standard pattern hourly service. There are also numerous stations that don't quite get double what Hunts Cross gets but still get significantly higher figures than Hunts Cross with just an hourly service, such as Clitheroe with 2.36 million.

 

[John55]

Hunts Cross was actually 1.19 million in 09/10. The big rise in 08/09 was down to PTE tickets being included properly for the first time. Winsford got 1.22 million in 09/10 and off-peak only has a 2 hourly service.

Knutsford with 3.04 million and Buxton with 3.01 million are among the stations which get more than double what Hunts Cross gets (which is 2.38 million not 2.5) with a standard pattern hourly service. There are also numerous stations that don't quite get double what Hunts Cross gets but still get significantly higher figures than Hunts Cross with just an hourly service, such as Clitheroe with 2.36 million.

I suggest you look again at the ORR data which gives entries and exits for 2009/10 as;

Buxton 301432
Knutsford 301404
Winsford 122484

Hunts Cross 1190934

Macclesfield does have more passengers than Hunts Cross but off peak has 3 trains per hour.

None of which invalidates my contention that the local service on the CLC is dreadful.

 

[34D]

I suspect Hull would settle for the Manchester Victoria-Selby being extended to Hull which has been mooted. Also is there still the question of where the current Scarborough goes, assuming its not electrified

Arguably the Selby-Leeds stopper could simply terminate at Leeds (in one of the little-used east end bays) rather than go to Halifax as present (or Shipley or Doncaster or anywhere an electric train could go).

If hull is wired and Scarborough isn't, it was suggested elsewhere that Blackpool-York could be extended to Scarborough (remaining as diesel) which is how it operated 10 ish years ago. This would of course release bay plat 7 at York (where the class 158s sit for 45 minutes) for other uses.

Potentially there could be an hourly Leeds-Selby stopper (electric), hourly Leeds-York (all stations inc Ulleskelf, electric), hourly Blackpool-Scarborough (potentially just calling Cross Gates and Garforth) and (as now) one Trans Pennine calling Garforth only.

If Hull is wired though I query what would happen to Sherburn - unlikely to be wired for 5ish York-Selby a day. There is a bus Leeds-Sherburn-Selby and doubtless one diesel parly train a day would continue.

Great thread all

 

[MidnightFlyer]

With regard to the CLC, I do feel that the local service is poor, especially at the likes of Flixton etc with just 1tp2h. I think a split at Warrington, maybe allowing a good hourly local service at each station is the way to go.

With regard specifically to Hunts Cross, I suspect a lot of that figure is absorbed by the 4tph to Southport via Liverpool on the Northern line, and not on the CLC services. I suspect LPY is also taking up a lot of the market it used to have.

 

[pemma]

I suggest you look again at the ORR data which gives entries and exits for 2009/10 as

OK I looked the figures too quickly and misread them because they were expressed in different formats.

However, I still fail to see why you're so bothered about a train missing out Hunts Cross. Hunts Cross gets 5tph to Liverpool and 1tph to Warrington. For people changing between services South Parkway is the better interchange due to having the express Manchester-Liverpool services stopping there as well as the Liverpool-Birmingham services.

If 40% of those 1.19 million are travelling to or from the Warrington area then stopping the other CLC service at Hunts Cross could be justified but I imagine the figure travelling to Warrington is much lower than that.

 

[IanXC]

Arguably the Selby-Leeds stopper could simply terminate at Leeds (in one of the little-used east end bays) rather than go to Halifax as present (or Shipley or Doncaster or anywhere an electric train could go).

If hull is wired and Scarborough isn't, it was suggested elsewhere that Blackpool-York could be extended to Scarborough (remaining as diesel) which is how it operated 10 ish years ago. This would of course release bay plat 7 at York (where the class 158s sit for 45 minutes) for other uses.

Potentially there could be an hourly Leeds-Selby stopper (electric), hourly Leeds-York (all stations inc Ulleskelf, electric), hourly Blackpool-Scarborough (potentially just calling Cross Gates and Garforth) and (as now) one Trans Pennine calling Garforth only.

If Hull is wired though I query what would happen to Sherburn - unlikely to be wired for 5ish York-Selby a day. There is a bus Leeds-Sherburn-Selby and doubtless one diesel parly train a day would continue.

Great thread all

Freeing up 7 at York for the TPE York terminator solves another issue there.

The service patter proposed for Leeds-York makes much more sense - removing some of the smaller calls from the Blackpool-York(Scarborough) would be a good move.

I do wonder whether Hull will get a second "express" service to Leeds or whether the extension of the Leeds-Selby stopper will be it.

There is a parly that already calls at Sherburn -2 return journeys a day from York to Sheffield via Pontefract Baghill, so thats already covered off. Also if you measure from the crossroads at the centre of Sherburn, distances to stations are:
Sherburn 0.8 miles
South Milford 1.1 miles
Possible new station location between Church Fenton and Micklefield 1.0 miles

So I'd agree that its probably not worth wiring via Sherburn.

 

[Waverley125]

I think Hull-Leeds really is one of those 'suppressed demand' services-with only an hourly service, usually a 2-car 170, people don't use it.

I'd hope to see something along these lines after wiring (fingers crossed)

Western TPE-Leeds-Hull: 2tph calling Selby & Hull only
Leeds-Hull: 2tph calling Cross Gates, Garforth, South Milford, Selby, Howden, Gilberdyke, Ferriby, Hessle, Hull

Leeds-Selby: 2tph calling East End Park*, Killingbeck*, Cross Gates, Thorpe Park*, Garforth, East Garforth, Micklefield, South Milford, Thorpe Willoughby*, Selby


As for the western end of the North TPE, I'd ideally like to see 2tph Leeds-Manchester Airport via the Ordsall Chord, 2tph Leeds-Liverpool Lime St, and then an hourly service each to Shrewsbury (via the Ordsall Chord, Stockport & Crewe) and to Holyhead (via Earlestown, Warrington BQ and Runcorn).

 

[MidnightFlyer]

Something tells me 4tph would be overkill, 6 to Selby certainly would be.

I would add a second fast service per hour, and have a good connection at Selby for a local service ex-York.

Further, what happened to Brough in your plans?

 

[34D]

There is a parly that already calls at Sherburn -2 return journeys a day from York to Sheffield via Pontefract Baghill, so thats already covered off.

Think you misunderstood me - the line from Sherburn Jun to Gascoigne Wood Jun (that is to say between Sherburn station and Selby (as served by approx half the York-Selby trains) would need either closure or a parly provision - the line to pontefract and Sheffield deviates at Sherburn Jun.

 

[Gareth]

A better solution would be to separate the locals at Warrington and run a decent local service in both directions.

The best solution of course would be to take the third rail (or equivalent) to Warrington from Hunts Cross then there could be a much better service all round even if the Eastern part remained DMU.

I agree with Merseyrail taking over Hunts Cross - Warrington Central. I'd give it 4tph on the Northern Line, if there wasn't an issue with the fasts. Ideally, Central to LSP would be doubled to 8tph with a turn back facility at LSP too.

As for Mossley Hill & West Allerton, maybe build a link to Liverpool Airport and do an all stations service to Lime Street. This would also allow any future Welsh services to run fast on this stretch, if and when the Halton Curve is rebuilt.

Maybe this would be a controversial suggestion but one the Northern Hub is completed, how about splitting the Chat Moss stopping services between Liverpool & Manchester? The split would be either at Earlestown or Newton-le-Willows. I think that with at least 4 fasts per hour between the two cities, no one should be using the stoppers for end-to-end journeys. Yes, I know that users at the smaller intermediate stations would have to change if they wanted to access the other side of the line but it could work out not too much of an issue to the connections worked out. It'd certainly help if any PTE-governed, Overground-style franchises were to be awarded, as TfGM had an interest in recently.

Manchester having two mainline stations is a bit annoying and ideally I'd like all Liverpool fasts to go to the same station (ideally Victora). At the moment, if you want to travel to Liverpool from Manchester, which station to you use? It's rather annoying. Could the line that comes of Ashburys towards Victoria be opened to passengers? Then, the trains from Sheffield could go that way, although I'm not sure what the time difference would be between Sheffield & Manchester. Would probably not be acceptable if it was significantly longer.

 

[John55]

Maybe this would be a controversial suggestion but one the Northern Hub is completed, how about splitting the Chat Moss stopping services between Liverpool & Manchester? The split would be either at Earlestown or Newton-le-Willows. I think that with at least 4 fasts per hour between the two cities, no one should be using the stoppers for end-to-end journeys. Yes, I know that users at the smaller intermediate stations would have to change if they wanted to access the other side of the line but it could work out not too much of an issue to the connections worked out. It'd certainly help if any PTE-governed, Overground-style franchises were to be awarded, as TfGM had an interest in recently.

On the theme of controversial suggestions would it be more logical to withdraw stops on the local services between Newton le Willows and Manchester completely? The use of Patricroft and Eccles is very low and it might be better to invest in some other means of connecting those areas to central Manchester. Eccles is already connected via Metrolink (though indirectly) and the hinterland of the two station has been savaged by roadbuilding and town (mis-)planning.

Historically the Liverpool to Manchester stoppers did not go via Chat Moss which is why the service usually terminated at Newton le Willows when the Leigh loop closed with only occasional trains running through to Manchester.

With the 4 tracking between Broad Green and Huyton coupled with non stop trains from N-le-W to Manchester with 100mph EMUs you should be able to make the service work with a mix of fast and slows.

 

[IanXC]

Think you misunderstood me - the line from Sherburn Jun to Gascoigne Wood Jun (that is to say between Sherburn station and Selby (as served by approx half the York-Selby trains) would need either closure or a parly provision - the line to pontefract and Sheffield deviates at Sherburn Jun.

Ah yes of course! Sorry!


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Something tells me 4tph would be overkill, 6 to Selby certainly would be.

I would add a second fast service per hour, and have a good connection at Selby for a local service ex-York.

Further, what happened to Brough in your plans?

I agree, there's definately lots of suppressed demand but I think there's more of a need for longer trains than higher frequencies. I'd suggest:
2tph Hull, Brough, Selby, Leeds and beyond
1tph Hull to Leeds all stops (lifting stops from Bridlington-Sheffield to take advantage of EMU acceleration to speed up DMU services)
1tph Hull, Brough, Howden, Selby, York (via Hambleton Jn)
Maybe also 1tph Selby to Leeds all stops

 

[Bevan Price]

Maybe this would be a controversial suggestion but one the Northern Hub is completed, how about splitting the Chat Moss stopping services between Liverpool & Manchester? The split would be either at Earlestown or Newton-le-Willows. I think that with at least 4 fasts per hour between the two cities, no one should be using the stoppers for end-to-end journeys. Yes, I know that users at the smaller intermediate stations would have to change if they wanted to access the other side of the line but it could work out not too much of an issue to the connections worked out. It'd certainly help if any PTE-governed, Overground-style franchises were to be awarded, as TfGM had an interest in recently.

.

That idea would kill off most of the traffic to Manchester from stations west of Earlestown. Passengers do not like to change trains, especially if there was previously a through service. Having to change would also increase journey times, and create a risk of missed connections if trains were running late.

Also, Newton -Le- Willows now has no facility for such operations - the crossover east of the station was removed some years ago. Reversing trains at Earlestown would require trains crossing the junction to enter Platform 3 and would probably affect the number of available paths across the junction for through services.

 

[Max]

I agree, there's definately lots of suppressed demand but I think there's more of a need for longer trains than higher frequencies. I'd suggest:
2tph Hull, Brough, Selby, Leeds and beyond
1tph Hull to Leeds all stops (lifting stops from Bridlington-Sheffield to take advantage of EMU acceleration to speed up DMU services)
1tph Hull, Brough, Howden, Selby, York (via Hambleton Jn)
Maybe also 1tph Selby to Leeds all stops

4tph might be pushing it when you also factor in freight, 2tph via Goole and the twice hourly service to London (and perhaps more frequent in the future). I suspect Hull-Selby would have to be completely resignalled to make this a reality, and this doesn't seem to be something that Network Rail have been willing to commit to (thus far). I would personally do something like:

Hull-Brough-Selby-Leeds and beyond (1tph)
Hull-Hessle-Ferriby-Brough-Gilberdyke-Howden-Selby-South Milford-Garforth-Leeds (1tph)
Hull-Brough-Gilberdyke-Howden-Selby-York (1tph)

Howden has a vastly better service than it did a few years ago, and it appears that patronage has really improved in response. Hessle and Ferriby are significant places and there is no reason why their stations shouldn't be better utilised, the service is just so poor at present that demand is severely depressed. An additional hourly service to Hull and a service west towards Leeds would really make them a better proposition.

 

[tbtc]

On the theme of controversial suggestions would it be more logical to withdraw stops on the local services between Newton le Willows and Manchester completely? The use of Patricroft and Eccles is very low and it might be better to invest in some other means of connecting those areas to central Manchester. Eccles is already connected via Metrolink (though indirectly) and the hinterland of the two station has been savaged by roadbuilding and town (mis-)planning

A few years ago I could have seen this argument but nowadays Eccles is going to be the interchange for media types accessing the BBC's Salford offices (via the Metro).

 

[IanXC]

4tph might be pushing it when you also factor in freight, 2tph via Goole and the twice hourly service to London (and perhaps more frequent in the future). I suspect Hull-Selby would have to be completely resignalled to make this a reality, and this doesn't seem to be something that Network Rail have been willing to commit to (thus far). I would personally do something like:

Hull-Brough-Selby-Leeds and beyond (1tph)
Hull-Hessle-Ferriby-Brough-Gilberdyke-Howden-Selby-South Milford-Garforth-Leeds (1tph)
Hull-Brough-Gilberdyke-Howden-Selby-York (1tph)

Actually that's a very good point. I guess the only chance is if the signalling has to be replaced due to not being OHLE immune.

Just floating an idea, (perhaps not thought through)
1tph Hull-Leeds all stops
1tph Hull, Brough, Howden, Selby, Leeds and beyond
1tph Hull, Brough, Selby (splits) Leeds and York

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Think you misunderstood me - the line from Sherburn Jun to Gascoigne Wood Jun (that is to say between Sherburn station and Selby (as served by approx half the York-Selby trains) would need either closure or a parly provision - the line to pontefract and Sheffield deviates at Sherburn Jun.

Another thought, there's a once a day Beverley-York which goes via Sherburn so would cover this off.

 

[tbtc]

Think you misunderstood me - the line from Sherburn Jun to Gascoigne Wood Jun (that is to say between Sherburn station and Selby (as served by approx half the York-Selby trains) would need either closure or a parly provision - the line to pontefract and Sheffield deviates at Sherburn Jun.

You could always ensure that one East Coast/ XC service uses it as a diversionary route (Doncaster - Hambleton - joins the South Milford line westbound - takes the chord to Sherburn - Church Fenton - York)?

Then again, one problem with diverting all Hull - York services straight up the ECML after Selby is that you'd need fast stock to time between the Intercity services (admittedly an EMU should be better at this than a 75mph DMU!)

 

[Waverley125]

the Leeds-Selby half-hourly stopper is, I think, necessary to tap into currently unused demand from East Leeds & its suburbs into Leeds. Certainly if you factor in new stops at Thorpe Willoughby, Thorpe Park (P&R), Killingbeck and East End Park, a half-hourly service between Leeds & York/Selby will be required to give the necessary frequency of service at those stations.

Leeds-Hull currently as a fast time is 55 minutes. Cut that down to just Selby, and you can probably make 50 minutes, if not 45 with EMU acceleration and an ability to run lighter trains at higher speeds over the line.

However, there are also several substantial settlements (Garforth, Howden, Gilberdyke, Brough, North Ferriby and Hessle) which can't be tacked onto an 'express' service, or onto an all-stopper to Leeds. The most optimum solution, therefore, is to run a 3-tier service, catering for both end-to-end demand, currently harmed by lack of capacity and a long journey time, and demand for fast services from intermediate destinations into the major centres.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

However, there are also several substantial settlements (Garforth, Howden, Gilberdyke, Brough, North Ferriby and Hessle) which can't be tacked onto an 'express' service, or onto an all-stopper to Leeds.

Bear in mind Brough has over 400,000 passengers a year: even though Selby is bordering on half a million, I suggest the former still warrant express services.