North Wales electrification

[jones_bangor]

Jones (Welsh Secretary) plea on north Wales electric rail business case

"The case needs to be made for the electrification of the main rail line in north Wales by politicians, councils and business groups, says Welsh Secretary David Jones.

UK and Welsh governments have met to try to make progress on investing in the faster train service, which experts believe would cost about £300m."

link:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-20182521

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

It would be nice for this to happen, but somebody had better tell Cardiff that it will stop through trains from north to south Wales, unless they use IEPs.
The business case for electrification won't be made with 2tph of which one stays diesel-worked.
I would guess this will be in the context of the new franchise from 2018.

 

[tbtc]

It would be nice for this to happen, but somebody had better tell Cardiff that it will stop through trains from north to south Wales, unless they use IEPs.
The business case for electrification won't be made with 2tph of which one stays diesel-worked.
I would guess this will be in the context of the new franchise from 2018.

Good point. Electrification on the coast would make sense, but it would be the 2020s before there are spare resources to do it (once the CP5 work has been done including the inevitable over-runs, plus all of the obvious "next step" electrification like Selby - Hull, Sheffield - Leeds, Derby - Birmingham etc at the start of CP6).

However, as you say, for electrification to be justified you'd need to have the majority of services on the line west of Chester to be EMU operated. London to Holyhead would be, Manchester to Llandudno ought to be (presumably Warrington - Chester would be wired at the same time), but I can't see the Marches line getting wired any time soon, so that would mean some awkward decisions for those in Cardiff to make...

 

[anthony263]

If they wore the north wales coast line then I would like to see the marches line wired as well.

Of course that would cause a bit of a problem for the Milford Haven/Carmarthen - Manchester service unless you wire all the way to Milford Haven.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Good point. Electrification on the coast would make sense, but it would be the 2020s before there are spare resources to do it (once the CP5 work has been done including the inevitable over-runs, plus all of the obvious "next step" electrification like Selby - Hull, Sheffield - Leeds, Derby - Birmingham etc at the start of CP6).

However, as you say, for electrification to be justified you'd need to have the majority of services on the line west of Chester to be EMU operated. London to Holyhead would be, Manchester to Llandudno ought to be (presumably Warrington - Chester would be wired at the same time), but I can't see the Marches line getting wired any time soon, so that would mean some awkward decisions for those in Cardiff to make...

Yes tough choices as they say- theirs more examples all over, the case to wire to Shrewsbury will not be made on ATW running DMU's under wires from Salop to INLT either. No news on whether Manchester- Cardiff- West Wales will be cut back to Manchester-Cardiff come 2018.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Working westwards from the current wires, I would put the business case in the following order:
Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury - 30 miles
Crewe-Chester - 20 miles
Warrington-Chester - 18 miles
Chester-Llandudno/Holyhead (84 miles, all or nothing)
Chester-Shrewsbury - 42 miles

Wrexham-Bidston (27 miles) is mired in uncertainty given the current traffic levels and technical issues.
Merseyrail will want it 3rd rail for compatibility with their current services.
But this flies against the current NR OHL policy.
(There will also be complications at Chester and Wrexham with mixed AC/DC working).

Any North Wales scheme would be in a mix with at least an equal stretch in England to be wired, so the politics will have to support that.
It needs a consortium approach, with dependencies as far as TfGM and Centro as well as Cheshire and Shropshire.

Every scheme has side effects.
Apart from the north-south Wales through trains issue, Cambrian services might not get through to Birmingham if the wires start at Shrewsbury - divert to Crewe perhaps?
And what to do with islands with no business case? (Helsby-Ellesmere Port, Llandudno Jn-Blaenau Ff).

Just my 5p.

 

[Chris125]

Wrexham-Bidston (27 miles) is mired in uncertainty given the current traffic levels and technical issues.
Merseyrail will want it 3rd rail for compatibility with their current services.
But this flies against the current NR OHL policy.
(There will also be complications at Chester and Wrexham with mixed AC/DC working).

The replacement stock for Merseyrail is virtually guaranteed to be capable of dual voltage operation - not only making Wrexham electrification with OHLE a practical proposition, but also allowing certain services to be extended along an electrified North Wales Coast line.

Chris

 

[jones_bangor]

I wonder whether EU structural funding will be available? The feeling of many is that the last infusion of EU money left little legacy benefits, and Wales looks like qualifying for more.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

The replacement stock for Merseyrail is virtually guaranteed to be capable of dual voltage operation - not only making Wrexham electrification with OHLE a practical proposition, but also allowing certain services to be extended along an electrified North Wales Coast line.
Chris

For what it's worth, AC wiring from Chester to Wrexham could be worked by dual-voltage Merseyrail stock to give a frequent Wrexham-Chester-Liverpool service.
I bet this would have a better business case than the slow route via Shotton.

 

[HSTEd]

Whats the line speed on the Coast Line and on the Marches?

I can't imagine it is very high, nor would it be very high west of Swansea.

I smell cut price electrification opportunities.

 

[D365]

North Wales Coast would be a good opportunity for Baby-Pendos to take over from Voyagers, if this is ever done. The business case depends on how much electrification would benefit other services.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Whats the line speed on the Coast Line and on the Marches?
I can't imagine it is very high, nor would it be very high west of Swansea.
I smell cut price electrification opportunities.

90mph in some places, usually nearer 75-85.
There are plans to get more of it (also Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury-Chester, currently mostly 70mph) up to 90mph.
Abergavenny-Craven Arms is mostly 90, also Shrewsbury-Nantwich and Crewe-Chester.
Almost a decent main line speed.

 

[tbtc]

Yes tough choices as they say- theirs more examples all over, the case to wire to Shrewsbury will not be made on ATW running DMU's under wires from Salop to INLT either. No news on whether Manchester- Cardiff- West Wales will be cut back to Manchester-Cardiff come 2018.

Agreed. ATW's longer distance services don't really fit comfortably inside "borders", nor do they fit around electrification post 2019. Continue running short DMUs on the Swansea - Cardiff part of Milford Haven - Manchester services and you waste part of the justification for electrifying the line. But cutting the service at both Swansea and Cardiff would be politically unpopular.

Same goes for the Cambrian running through to Birmingham so often if the line from Shrewsbury to Wolverhampton is electrified, as you say.

Politics and efficient railways are two different things

Working westwards from the current wires, I would put the business case in the following order:
Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury - 30 miles
Crewe-Chester - 20 miles
Warrington-Chester - 18 miles
Chester-Llandudno/Holyhead (84 miles, all or nothing)

This looks like a pretty sensible scheme (after Chat Moss etc is done in CP5), if the service west of Chester is a half hourly one from Manchester/ Crewe/ London (with the current services from Shrewsbury to Chester via Wrexham mainly cut back to terminate at Chester, as used to happen in Central Trains days)

Chester-Shrewsbury - 42 miles

Harder to justify, unless you are doing the Marches line from Newport to Crewe too

Wrexham-Bidston (27 miles) is mired in uncertainty given the current traffic levels and technical issues.
Merseyrail will want it 3rd rail for compatibility with their current services

It looks pretty suited to dual voltage EMUs (which the 507/508 replacements are guaranteed to be, as Chris125 says). It's a self contained service, which is always the best type to justify electrification.

what to do with islands with no business case? (Helsby-Ellesmere Port, Llandudno Jn-Blaenau Ff)

Blaenau Ffestiniog is going to be diesel run forever, as far as I can see - it may be tied up with the same light weight stock suitable for the HOWL etc.

The Helsby line is a tricky one, if electrification would cause problems with the oil refineries (urban myth?)

 

[Bevan Price]

The replacement stock for Merseyrail is virtually guaranteed to be capable of dual voltage operation - not only making Wrexham electrification with OHLE a practical proposition, but also allowing certain services to be extended along an electrified North Wales Coast line.

Chris

With suburban stock and no toilets ? Less than ideal for journeys of 2 hours or more.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Wires through up all sort of depot issues too. West of Swansea incl HOW will be diesel and need its own depot with more extensive facilities than Carmarthen has at moment. I can see there being more workings over the Swansea District Line to keep West Wales "connected with Cardiff" maybe every 2 hrs with rest terminating at Swansea.

As for Cambrian - if the wires come from Oxley to Shrewsbury (28 miles??) I would hope that current hrly Euston to Wolves service is extended to Shrewsbury and everything made to connect with it at Shrewsbury and do it properly like the Swiss with spending on infrastructure and rolling stock to make it happen. Thats the only way its going to work without really hacking folk off.

 

[tbtc]

Wires through up all sort of depot issues too. West of Swansea incl HOW will be diesel and need its own depot with more extensive facilities than Carmarthen has at moment. I can see there being more workings over the Swansea District Line to keep West Wales "connected with Cardiff" maybe every 2 hrs with rest terminating at Swansea.

As for Cambrian - if the wires come from Oxley to Shrewsbury (28 miles??) I would hope that current hrly Euston to Wolves service is extended to Shrewsbury and everything made to connect with it at Shrewsbury and do it properly like the Swiss with spending on infrastructure and rolling stock to make it happen. Thats the only way its going to work without really hacking folk off.

Good points - the kind of detail that sometimes gets missed when talking of such plans.

Hopefully an electrified line through Telford to Shrewsbury would see an extended Euston - Wolverhampton service connecting with trains to Aberystwyth, Wrexham, Church Stretton etc, as you suggest. Since there are three services terminating at Wolverhampton each hour there's hopefully plenty of scope for additional services to Telford (which really is a big place to get just the couple of trains an hour that it does)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Working westwards from the current wires, I would put the business case in the following order:
Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury - 30 miles
Crewe-Chester - 20 miles
Warrington-Chester - 18 miles
Chester-Llandudno/Holyhead (84 miles, all or nothing)
Chester-Shrewsbury - 42 miles
.

This makes total sense -agreed.

 

[anthony263]

Any possibility that ATW could use Llandore depot when the Hitachi finish building the new depot for IEP closer to Swansea station

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Any possibility that ATW could use Llandore depot when the Hitachi finish building the new depot for IEP closer to Swansea station

Totally off ------topic but my last loco for the first time around was 08663 off Llandore. I got it at number 1 target point on Swansea east Dock July
25th 1976. 87E? LE depot code?

Back on topic ---- how far up the southern end of the Cardiff Crewe line is getting wired for the valleys wiring - does it get as far up as Abergavenny?

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Totally off ------topic but my last loco for the first time around was 08663 off Llandore. I got it at number 1 target point on Swansea east Dock July
25th 1976. 87E? LE depot code?

Back on topic ---- how far up the southern end of the Cardiff Crewe line is getting wired for the valleys wiring - does it get as far up as Abergavenny?

No, not beyond the main line at Maindee Jn, Newport.

 

[tbtc]

how far up the southern end of the Cardiff Crewe line is getting wired for the valleys wiring - does it get as far up as Abergavenny?

As far as the junction at Newport AFAIK.

Pretty much nothing (from Cardiff) terminates at any of the stations on the southern stations on the Marches line, so there'd be little point in wiring half of it (unless you were planning to give Abergavenny and Cwmbran a proper local service which they deserve)

 

[GRALISTAIR]

That is a shame. Here is/was my fond hope. Electrify a bit of the southern end while going through to Swansea and the valleys - ideally to Abergavenny. Wolverhampton-Shrewsbury (no brainer in my opinion). Crewe southwards so Shrewsbury then make the case for finishing it all off.

 

[Eagle]

(unless you were planning to give Abergavenny and Cwmbran a proper local service which they deserve)

Could be an extension of any future Newport to Ebbw Vale (or Abertillery) service; this was looked at in Network Rail's Wales RUS, with potential for a new station at Caerleon (and maybe also Llantarnam and Sebastopol/Griffithstown).

 

[Manchester77]

North Wales Coast would be a good opportunity for Baby-Pendos to take over from Voyagers, if this is ever done. The business case depends on how much electrification would benefit other services.

Because then some 221s cold go over to XC strengthen their services

 

[The Ham]

Because then some 221s cold go over to XC strengthen their services

Once the MML is electrified there will be load of Meridians that they could use.

Add to that by the end of CP5 there will be XC routes (i.e. Manchester to Bournemouth) which would be suitable for EMU running. Then there are only a few short(ish) key gaps (Birmingham-Derby and Leeds and Doncaster to Sheffield) which could be done in CP6 before other XC services could be EMU.

For your information here is the XC map showing in green the electrification due by the end of 2019:

 

[joeykins82]

Nice map. One bit of pedantry though; Wakefield Westgate-Leeds is electrified which only further emphasises just how mental the absence of through electrification from Sheffield is!

 

[pemma]

Ynys Mon MP Albert Owen seems to think Crewe-Chester is already electrified!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Because then some 221s cold go over to XC strengthen their services

Given the above map mini Pendos (or equivalent) could be used on Manchester-Bournemouth and the 220s could have a 5th pantograph vehicle added to make some use of the partially wired routes, which would also give XC extra capacity.

 

[tbtc]

Could be an extension of any future Newport to Ebbw Vale (or Abertillery) service; this was looked at in Network Rail's Wales RUS, with potential for a new station at Caerleon (and maybe also Llantarnam and Sebastopol/Griffithstown).

Would be good if it happened - Cwmbran (which is bigger than anywhere in North Wales) and Abergavenny suffer from being on the long distance line - I'm sure there's some untapped demand there that would require some local service to provide capacity (rather than squeezing onto longer distance trains to Holyhead/ Manchester)

Nice map. One bit of pedantry though; Wakefield Westgate-Leeds is electrified which only further emphasises just how mental the absence of through electrification from Sheffield is!

My hope/ expectation is that the Dearne Valley line (Sheffield to Moorthorpe) isn't being wired in CP5 just because there's so much already comitted to in a five year period. Same with Selby - Hull, Derby to Birmingham etc (all logical "next step" electrification infills for CP6)

 

[The Ham]

Given the above map mini Pendos (or equivalent) could be used on Manchester-Bournemouth and the 220s could have a 5th pantograph vehicle added to make some use of the partially wired routes, which would also give XC extra capacity.

It's a shame that Project Thor is no longer being progressed:

Originally Posted by Roger Ford
Informed Sources was an early proponent of the proposal to add a pantograph car to a Class 220 Voyager DEMU to create a dual mode train able to run under electric power under the wires. The last progress report was in the August Informed Sources, after it emerged that Bombardier, which had promoted e-Voyager as a way to preserve ‘British jobs’ at Derby, was planning to import the new electrical equipment from its works in Sweden, thus threatening jobs at Alstom’s Preston plant.


Alstom was invited to bid after all. And then it all went quiet until, early in October, Informed Sources reported that work on e-Voyager had been ‘quietly dropped’ back in mid September.


This was due to a combination of factors which mean that a business case acceptable to DfT can no longer be made.
Apart from the cost of the extra cars and modifying the existing vehicles, the expanding electrification programme means that it will be possible to cover more Voyager-type duties with straight EMUs. In its ICWC bid Virgin proposed replacing Voyagers with Baby Pendolinos.

 

[Eagle]

Nice map. One bit of pedantry though; Wakefield Westgate-Leeds is electrified...

Increased pedantry would have me mention Birmingham to Bromsgrove, in fact I might even go all the way and mention Ash to Guildford and Haymarket to just shy of Dalmeny :P