North Wales into Liverpool gains Ministerial support

[6Gman]

Isn't there a rather fundamental problem with a regular/frequent Liverpool - North Wales service? What would it replace between Chester and Llandudno Junction or is there a suggestion of 3tph over this stretch?

I wonder in which order people in Bangor / Llandudno / Rhyl would prioritise the following in terms of providing through links?

London/Birmingham (via Crewe); Manchester; Cardiff/Birmingham (via Salop); Liverpool.

They can't have all four!

 

[pemma]

Exactly what is the reason why there is no current direct service from Liverpool to North Wales settlements along the North Wales coast line, yet such a service runs from Manchester. Is it to do with franchises?

More to do with the Halton Chord not being bi-directional. Although, Liverpool to Cardiff services that ran under BR were stopped in favour of an enhanced Manchester to Cardiff service.

 

[tbtc]

Isn't there a rather fundamental problem with a regular/frequent Liverpool - North Wales service? What would it replace between Chester and Llandudno Junction or is there a suggestion of 3tph over this stretch?

I wonder in which order people in Bangor / Llandudno / Rhyl would prioritise the following in terms of providing through links?

London/Birmingham (via Crewe); Manchester; Cardiff/Birmingham (via Salop); Liverpool.

They can't have all four!

Thats a good point.

From experience the services along the North Wales Coast tend to have a lot of "local" journeys with more people getting on/off at Chester than staying on board though.

 

[pemma]

I wonder in which order people in Bangor / Llandudno / Rhyl would prioritise the following in terms of providing through links?

London/Birmingham (via Crewe); Manchester; Cardiff/Birmingham (via Salop); Liverpool.

They can't have all four!

You need to look at the flows both ways though.

If no-one from London goes to Holyhead but a smaller number people from Manchester go to Llandudno and some people in Llandudno go to Manchester, then which is the most useful flow?

 

[Pen Mill]

Railmiles says Shotton-Bidston-Liverpool = 19 miles 20 chains! probably worth checking your maths.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

oops

I routed via Neston then Bidston.

I made the fatal error of not reading the result which was >-

Distance: 38mi 37ch - show the route on a map

The requested route:

Shotton, Sandycroft, Mold Junction, Saltney Junction, Chester Roodee Junction, Chester South Junction, Chester West Junction, Chester, Chester East Junction, Mickle Trafford, Dee Marsh Junction, Shotwick GF (Shotton Paper Co), Burton Point, Neston

Neston, Heswall, Upton, Bidston Dee Junction, Bidston

Bidston, Bidston East Junction, Birkenhead North, Birkenhead Park, Birkenhead Conway Park, Birkenhead Hamilton Square, Mann Island Junction, Liverpool James Street, Moorfields, Liverpool Lime Street (Low Level)



Script executed in 0.3543 seconds.





a straightforward Shotton-Bidston- liverpool LS Low level gets a different result again ! Nightmare !:
Distance: 30mi 52ch - show the route on a map

The requested route:

Shotton, Sandycroft, Mold Junction, Saltney Junction, Chester Roodee Junction, Chester South Junction, Chester North Junction, Bache, Capenhurst, Hooton, Eastham Rake, Bromborough, Bromborough Rake, Spital, Port Sunlight, Bebington, Rock Ferry, Green Lane, Birkenhead Central, Birkenhead Hamilton Square, Birkenhead Conway Park, Birkenhead Park, Birkenhead North, Bidston East Junction, Bidston

Bidston, Bidston East Junction, Birkenhead North, Birkenhead Park, Birkenhead Conway Park, Birkenhead Hamilton Square, Mann Island Junction, Liverpool James Street, Moorfields, Liverpool Lime Street (Low Level)



Script executed in 0.2212 seconds.

 

[Holly]

... London/Birmingham (via Crewe); Manchester; Cardiff/Birmingham (via Salop); Liverpool.
They can't have all four!

Through services are most valuable to, and appreciated by, travellers with luggage and/or young children.
Which tends to be to and from airports (and to a lesser extent seaside resorts).

All in all this puts Llandudno or Bangor to Manchester Airport or Liverpool South Parkway at higher priorities than the others.

 

[Welshman]

Though you would perhaps more likely change at Shotton if Bidston-Wrexham were electrified. Maybe not; since changing there is a bit of a hike compared with Chester if you have luggage.

At present, changing at Shotton is more difficult as only one of the two trains per hour along the NW coast stops at Shotton, and it's only an hourly service from there.
Whereas it's straight into Chester - a lot of the Llandudno-Manchesters seem to use platform 7 there now, so it's just a simple walk back along that platform for one of the frequent services on to Liverpool.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Can I just ask when the last regular NW - Liverpool services ran? Are we talking recently (since privatisation) or is it back in the BR days?

Way back in BR days, I think.

"The District Controller's View - Chester to Holyhead" by J.P.Williams, shows a 7.08am Llandudno-Birkenhead Woodside and a 7.50am Llandudno-Liverpool Lime St, and in the opposite direction a 7.50am Liverpool Lime St-Bangor with a portion for Pwllheli; a 4.30pm Liverpool Lime St -Llandudno and a 5.05pm Liverpool Lime St - Holyhead - all back in 1955!

 

[Bevan Price]

Exactly what is the reason why there is no current direct service from Liverpool to North Wales settlements along the North Wales coast line, yet such a service runs from Manchester. Is it to do with franchises?

I think the last through service between Liverpool & North Wales was a summer saturday return service between Liverpool & Llandudno, which lasted until the 1980's or early 1990's (without checking my old timetables.) Like many such services, it disappeared because fewer people were taking holidays within UK, and many of the remainder used cars rather than trains. Other holiday services to destinations like Pwllheli had disappeared by the late 1960's.

Liverpool - Runcorn - Chester was slower than the direct route; Liverpool Airport was less busy than now, and not enough people wanted to travel between Helsby or Frodsham to Runcorn / Liverpool. The main traffic flow has always been between Liverpool & Chester -- so with a post-Beeching policy of reducing duplicated routes, it was not surprising that Liverpool - Runcorn - Chester was effectively "sacrificed". If Halton curve is ever reconverted to bidirectional running, I doubt that it would need much more than single 153 units, even at peak hours.

 

[Welshman]

I recall the hovercraft when I lived in Rhyl,it travelled from Hortons Nose in the Voryd Harbour to Moreton Wirral in July 1962 http://www.wirralhistory.net/hovercraft.html

Alas I never used it,too busy working. It was the Worlds first Hovercraft service from RHYL.

Thank-you for posting that link.
I'd heard of the hovercraft service but had not seen that before.
Fascinating.

 

[Penmorfa]

Liverpool - Runcorn - Chester was slower than the direct route; Liverpool Airport was less busy than now, and not enough people wanted to travel between Helsby or Frodsham to Runcorn / Liverpool. The main traffic flow has always been between Liverpool & Chester -- so with a post-Beeching policy of reducing duplicated routes, it was not surprising that Liverpool - Runcorn - Chester was effectively "sacrificed". If Halton curve is ever reconverted to bidirectional running, I doubt that it would need much more than single 153 units, even at peak hours.

I'm inclined to agree with you. I've no doubt that Halton curve will be reopened but only as a self contained service run by Northern, probably on an hourly frequency. Travelling from North Wales I would always change at Chester even if a through service existed. 4 trains an hour taking you to 4 city centre stations in Liverpool. What would be an improvement is an express Merseyrail service calling only at Hooton, Bromborough, Bebington, Bhead Central then all stations to Liverpool Central.

 

[Welshman]

What would be an improvement is an express Merseyrail service calling only at Hooton, Bromborough, Bebington, Bhead Central then all stations to Liverpool Central.

Agreed - and would have been possible in the good old days, before the Chester-Rock Ferry line was de-quadrified. But now, I suspect it would be difficult to timetable 6 stopping trains plus 1 or 2 limited-stoppers per hour on one track!

 

[Penmorfa]

Agreed - and would have been possible in the good old days, before the Chester-Rock Ferry line was de-quadrified. But now, I suspect it would be difficult to timetable 6 stopping trains plus 1 or 2 limited-stoppers per hour on one track!

It would be 4 stopping and 2 fast between Hooton and Hamilton Square. With all movements controlled from Sandhills and Merseyrail's excellent timekeeking it should be possible outside the peak hours.

 

[John55]

oops

I routed via Neston then Bidston.

I made the fatal error of not reading the result which was >-

Distance: 38mi 37ch - show the route on a map

The requested route:

Shotton, Sandycroft, Mold Junction, Saltney Junction, Chester Roodee Junction, Chester South Junction, Chester West Junction, Chester, Chester East Junction, Mickle Trafford, Dee Marsh Junction, Shotwick GF (Shotton Paper Co), Burton Point, Neston

Neston, Heswall, Upton, Bidston Dee Junction, Bidston

Bidston, Bidston East Junction, Birkenhead North, Birkenhead Park, Birkenhead Conway Park, Birkenhead Hamilton Square, Mann Island Junction, Liverpool James Street, Moorfields, Liverpool Lime Street (Low Level)



Script executed in 0.3543 seconds.





a straightforward Shotton-Bidston- liverpool LS Low level gets a different result again ! Nightmare !:
Distance: 30mi 52ch - show the route on a map

The requested route:

Shotton, Sandycroft, Mold Junction, Saltney Junction, Chester Roodee Junction, Chester South Junction, Chester North Junction, Bache, Capenhurst, Hooton, Eastham Rake, Bromborough, Bromborough Rake, Spital, Port Sunlight, Bebington, Rock Ferry, Green Lane, Birkenhead Central, Birkenhead Hamilton Square, Birkenhead Conway Park, Birkenhead Park, Birkenhead North, Bidston East Junction, Bidston

Bidston, Bidston East Junction, Birkenhead North, Birkenhead Park, Birkenhead Conway Park, Birkenhead Hamilton Square, Mann Island Junction, Liverpool James Street, Moorfields, Liverpool Lime Street (Low Level)



Script executed in 0.2212 seconds.

Try Shotton High Level!

 

[Bevan Price]

I'm inclined to agree with you. I've no doubt that Halton curve will be reopened but only as a self contained service run by Northern, probably on an hourly frequency. Travelling from North Wales I would always change at Chester even if a through service existed. 4 trains an hour taking you to 4 city centre stations in Liverpool. What would be an improvement is an express Merseyrail service calling only at Hooton, Bromborough, Bebington, Bhead Central then all stations to Liverpool Central.

I agree that a fast service would be nice, but somehow I doubt that Merseytravel would want to pay for a service that omitted many of their stations - if they had been willing, we might have got that when Liverpool / Chester was increased to 4 trains per hour.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

I note, with some irritation, that the Government in Cardiff is regularly blamed for any perceived shortcoming of rail services in the north. Perhaps it is time to remind the regular ‘Cardiff Bashers’ that the ‘All Wales Franchise’ was not designed in Wales but was imposed upon us, for fifteen years, by the now defunct Strategic Rail Authority in 2003. The then Welsh Assembly Government could advise and plead with the SRA but it was under no obligation, legal or otherwise, to listen. At that time, rail matters were not devolved and only became so, in a very limited way, in 2006. Anything that was not in the 2003 franchise has had to be supported out of general funding which, for the last few years, has been very difficult to find. There are many things competing for what is, after all, a very limited pot.

I know the north very well and spend a good proportion of every year spending time and money there. What cannot be denied is that the bulk of the population lives and works between Newport, Cardiff and Swansea and their attendant valleys. Because of the topography of the area, the ’Valley Lines’ are an invaluable asset and their long overdue improvement cannot come quickly enough.

The present situation on the Cambrian is not the fault of anyone in Wales but a result of Network Rail choosing to make the lines a guinea pig for ERTMS. It is not good enough and, until the infrastructure is devolved, is not going to be seen as a priority.

It is interesting that there is a sudden clamour for direct trains to Liverpool. Throughout its existence, BR never detected such a demand, except on some summer Saturdays. Neither, it seems, did the LMS or LNWR. Perhaps the clamour is coming from those who have moved to Wales from Merseyside. It would be interesting to find out. For the sixty odd years that I have known the area the big draw has always been Chester or Manchester. There might well be people who would appreciate a through service to Liverpool but are there enough of them to justify a regular service? Somehow I doubt it but I would be happy to be proved wrong.

Perhaps there might be something in CP6; maybe the wires will reach Holyhead. It is, after all a key ‘Euro Route’. In the meantime, Cardiff can do very little except lobby from the sidelines. If everything contained in CP5 goes ahead, it would indicate that there has been some pretty effective lobbying. That may change in future but in the meantime we have to accept what we are given.

 

[Michael.Y]

Bravo. Post of the year.

 

[merlodlliw]

Bravo. Post of the year.

without repeating it,Gwenllians post it is well thought out, however does fall down by the retort of Cardiff Bashers, or perhaps meaning Cardiff Bay bashers,I have been critical of some of the decisions out of the bay,with good reason,I don't wish to get into a political scenario, but I do live in North East Wales & have done for over 60 years,there is no question the major population is in the South, but the major population in the North of Wales is in the North East,there is a call for a Liverpool service,many work in Merseyside who have been born & bred in North East Wales, Wales & Borders franchise was badly set up,in the real world of business no growth means you go bust,however IWJ could not wait to get his hands on it, it was a pup,better he had waited & bargained,than just except , he later admitted he was sold a pup.

There has always been a relationship with Liverpool, as Newport has a relationship with Cardiff, what is finally getting through is,the majority of travel is East/West not North/South.( ATW figures)
With two WG Ministers whose consituences border Cheshire,they know where their constituents wish to travel to for work & leisure.Two major international
Airports at Manchester & Liverpool are the magnet,Again your thread was well thought out,

Bob

 

[ivanhoe]

Apart from National Express coaches, there appears to be either little or no direct transport links to Liverpool. This is a far cry from the days of Crosville and the Halton Curve. Is there the demand? Would it take more cars off the road? Would Queensferry be a joy to drive through in the morning and afternoon peaks if public transport links to Liverpool were reinstated? Whilst the final comment was flippant I would be interested of the views of North Walians, Cheshire and Liverpool residents. I can't help but think that the lack of trains would have perhaps made the Bus Companies have express services. Is there really a demand or is it an aspiration?

 

[merlodlliw]

Apart from National Express coaches, there appears to be either little or no direct transport links to Liverpool. This is a far cry from the days of Crosville and the Halton Curve. Is there the demand? Would it take more cars off the road? Would Queensferry be a joy to drive through in the morning and afternoon peaks if public transport links to Liverpool were reinstated? Whilst the final comment was flippant I would be interested of the views of North Walians, Cheshire and Liverpool residents. I can't help but think that the lack of trains would have perhaps made the Bus Companies have express services. Is there really a demand or is it an aspiration?

The Holyhead/Cardiff nine services were an aspiration in my opinion. Whereas Liverpool is only a few miles away,

 

[Cheshire Rover]

A nice run over the Halton Curve this morning in a well populated Class 150. NCRUG organised it to stop at Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn en route to Liverpool SP.

 

[pemma]

A nice run over the Halton Curve this morning in a well populated Class 150. NCRUG organised it to stop at Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn en route to Liverpool SP.

That was the normal Chester-Runcorn parliamentary extended with extra stops. Usually the unit runs ECS to Lime Street so I don't know why the South Parkway stop isn't weekly. Maybe Northern think people will actually use the train to get between Chester and South Parkway and they'll have to run more direct services!

 

[Cheshire Rover]

That was the normal Chester-Runcorn parliamentary extended with extra stops. Usually the unit runs ECS to Lime Street so I don't know why the South Parkway stop isn't weekly. Maybe Northern think people will actually use the train to get between Chester and South Parkway and they'll have to run more direct services!

Shame that Northern couldn't test the market and try running this in the week at the same time.

 

[Holly]

That was the normal Chester-Runcorn parliamentary extended with extra stops. Usually the unit runs ECS to Lime Street so I don't know why the South Parkway stop isn't weekly. ...

My understanding is that they will not stop routinely at South Parkway because of access rights. It's a competitive paperwork issue. Perhaps franchise related.

I don't see though how they are prevented from extending the service from Runcorn to Lime Street, nonstop in between. Seems like a gain for no cost to me.

 

[pemma]

My understanding is that they will not stop routinely at South Parkway because of access rights. It's a competitive paperwork issue. Perhaps franchise related.

I don't see though how they are prevented from extending the service from Runcorn to Lime Street, nonstop in between. Seems like a gain for no cost to me.

Yes Northern would need to submit a formal application to be allowed to run Runcorn-Lime Street services. Virgin and London Midland operate services on that flow so they might object to Northern taking a share of the revenue.

It's the same problem as people in Knutsford and Northwich complaining the last train back from Manchester on Friday and Saturday night being too early and then ATW operating a 00:25 Manchester-Chester service non-stop via Northwich.

 

[tbtc]

It is interesting that there is a sudden clamour for direct trains to Liverpool. Throughout its existence, BR never detected such a demand, except on some summer Saturdays. Neither, it seems, did the LMS or LNWR. Perhaps the clamour is coming from those who have moved to Wales from Merseyside. It would be interesting to find out. For the sixty odd years that I have known the area the big draw has always been Chester or Manchester. There might well be people who would appreciate a through service to Liverpool but are there enough of them to justify a regular service? Somehow I doubt it but I would be happy to be proved wrong

People are travelling a lot longer to work/shop nowadays than they were in the LMS/ BR days.

And even if Manchester and Chester are the two biggest flows for North Wales passengers surely Liverpool (which has no service to North Wales) isn't behind Birmingham (bi-hourly service from Holyhead/ Bangor/ Rhyl/ Wrexham) and Cardiff (bi-hourly service from Holyhead/ Bangor/ Rhyl/ Wrexham, on top of the WAG sponsored flights from Anglesey)?

 

[pemma]

People are travelling a lot longer to work/shop nowadays than they were in the LMS/ BR days.

That's really the general problem with our railways. Which communities are directly connected is usually based on historical demand, not current demand.

Before EasyJet and Jet 2 came along airports like Liverpool and Leeds-Bradford didn't have a lot to offer, so the rail infrastructure was designed around getting people from northern towns to Manchester Airport. Now Liverpool Airport has more to offer people in North Wales find it's difficult to get to using public transport.

With Liverpool Airport expanding there's also more jobs there but while Flint to Liverpool Airport isn't too long (distance wise) to be a commutable distance, it's too long using public transport because of having to change multiple times.

 

[unlevel42]

...
It is interesting that there is a sudden clamour for direct trains to Liverpool. Throughout its existence, BR never detected such a demand, except on some summer Saturdays. Neither, it seems, did the LMS or LNWR. Perhaps the clamour is coming from those who have moved to Wales from Merseyside. It would be interesting to find out. For the sixty odd years that I have known the area the big draw has always been Chester or Manchester. There might well be people who would appreciate a through service to Liverpool but are there enough of them to justify a regular service? Somehow I doubt it but I would be happy to be proved wrong...

I would contend that there was a much stronger but unmet demand for links to Liverpool in the 60' and 70' as far as my experience of the Bangor area is concerned.

For shopping, Chester was the most poular destination in the 60' and 70' but Liverpool was the big treat at this time for shopping and football and we regularly put up with the two/three changes when travelling from Bangor to Liverpool. The demand was also met by local coach operators who provided frequent day trips to both places.
The lack of a through train service - the deplorable conditions of the stock and stations at the Junction/Chester/Rock Ferry and Liverpool and the demise of Liverpools' special shops did weaken the demand.
As a measure of the strength of connection between NW Wales and Liverpool I would suggest asking the questions of the situation in the 60' and 70':
A How many relatives did you have in (1)Liverpool (2) Manchester?
B How of your pals supported(1)Everton/Liverpool (2) Manchester United/City?

The census provides the answer to A. The number of coaches travelling at that time to Liverpool for the football/shopping gives the answer to B. (I used to stick up the posters for both the football and shopping specials)

Why the demand at the time was not satisfied by a regular through service from NW Wales I do not know but we still went to Liverpool as a first choice.

I would agree that the connection between Manchester and Llandudno was stronger. (For Maine Road coach we had to go to the Junction.)








.

 

[Gwenllian2001]

I would contend that there was a much stronger but unmet demand for links to Liverpool in the 60' and 70' as far as my experience of the Bangor area is concerned.

For shopping, Chester was the most poular destination in the 60' and 70' but Liverpool was the big treat at this time for shopping and football and we regularly put up with the two/three changes when travelling from Bangor to Liverpool. The demand was also met by local coach operators who provided frequent day trips to both places.
The lack of a through train service - the deplorable conditions of the stock and stations at the Junction/Chester/Rock Ferry and Liverpool and the demise of Liverpools' special shops did weaken the demand.
As a measure of the strength of connection between NW Wales and Liverpool I would suggest asking the questions of the situation in the 60' and 70':
A How many relatives did you have in (1)Liverpool (2) Manchester?
B How of your pals supported(1)Everton/Liverpool (2) Manchester United/City?

The census provides the answer to A. The number of coaches travelling at that time to Liverpool for the football/shopping gives the answer to B. (I used to stick up the posters for both the football and shopping specials)

Why the demand at the time was not satisfied by a regular through service from NW Wales I do not know but we still went to Liverpool as a first choice.

I would agree that the connection between Manchester and Llandudno was stronger. (For Maine Road coach we had to go to the Junction.).

You raise some interesting points. Bangor to Liverpool is a fair old way to commute even if there were plenty of jobs on Merseyside. Unfortunately, the unemployment figures for Liverpool remain consistently above the national average. The question remains as to whether there is there enough demand to support a year round daily service? Under the circumstances, the main flow looks likely be leisure travel, and I include airport travel in that, and of course, Liverpool or Everton home games.

I am well aware of the strong family connections between Liverpool and north Wales and many years ago shared a room with a Welsh speaking ‘Scouser’. You mention the situation in relation to the Sixties but fifty years on those ties are much weaker. People die; families break up and the great attraction of Liverpool as a place of opportunity, for the people of north Wales, is long past. On the other hand, you will hear the accents of the north on the streets of Cardiff more than at any time in the past.

The much criticised services from Holyhead to the south are, on the whole, well used. They do, after all, serve a number of important places even if end to end passengers might be a minority.

I am not against a service to Liverpool. I would like to see it work. As far as I am concerned, the more rail services, the better. But another fly in the ointment is, of course, the lunatic break up of British Rail which has left us with the ‘turf’ problem. We now have the problem of one franchise vying against another to jealously guard its patch which does not help anyone.

On a lighter note, which is the longest through service which starts and ends in Wales?

 

[merlodlliw]

You raise some interesting points. Bangor to Liverpool is a fair old way to commute even if there were plenty of jobs on Merseyside. Unfortunately, the unemployment figures for Liverpool remain consistently above the national average. The question remains as to whether there is there enough demand to support a year round daily service? Under the circumstances, the main flow looks likely be leisure travel, and I include airport travel in that, and of course, Liverpool or Everton home games.

I am well aware of the strong family connections between Liverpool and north Wales and many years ago shared a room with a Welsh speaking ‘Scouser’. You mention the situation in relation to the Sixties but fifty years on those ties are much weaker. People die; families break up and the great attraction of Liverpool as a place of opportunity, for the people of north Wales, is long past. On the other hand, you will hear the accents of the north on the streets of Cardiff more than at any time in the past.

The much criticised services from Holyhead to the south are, on the whole, well used. They do, after all, serve a number of important places even if end to end passengers might be a minority.

I am not against a service to Liverpool. I would like to see it work. As far as I am concerned, the more rail services, the better. But another fly in the ointment is, of course, the lunatic break up of British Rail which has left us with the ‘turf’ problem. We now have the problem of one franchise vying against another to jealously guard its patch which does not help anyone.

On a lighter note, which is the longest through service which starts and ends in Wales?

The biggest flow of traffic at Chester is on Merseyrail, now four trains an hour due to traffic, I would not expect some from Bangor to commute to Liverpool, but North East Wales certainly has a great deal of traffic into Chester for Merseyrail.
On the North South route value we beg to differ,but I fully agree the end to end pax is very small.
Also on a lighter note, which ATW managed station has the largest number of tocs using it,

 

[Michael.Y]

I imagine the answer to the first question is Holyhead to Maesteg. the second is probably Chester; Virgin, ATW, Northern, Merseyrail. Cardiff Central and Newport only serve ATW, XC and FGW. Hereford again only 3, FGW, LM and ATW.