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North Wales into Liverpool gains Ministerial support

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merlodlliw

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I imagine the answer to the first question is Holyhead to Maesteg. the second is probably Chester; Virgin, ATW, Northern, Merseyrail. Cardiff Central and Newport only serve ATW, XC and FGW. Hereford again only 3, FGW, LM and ATW.

Correct it is Chester with four tocs

I recall a couple of years ago, ATW ran a Holyhead to Pembroke Dock,over eight hours for the hardy.


Bob
 
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Gwenllian2001

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I imagine the answer to the first question is Holyhead to Maesteg.

Correct and I have done it; from Bangor anyway.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Correct it is Chester with four tocs

I recall a couple of years ago, ATW ran a Holyhead to Pembroke Dock,over eight hours for the hardy.Bob

Done that one too; as far as Bridgend.
 

Michael.Y

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Be quicker to take a boat!

Erk - shouldn't give the WG any ideas. They'll start a Celtic Sea N/S boat service next. HHD-Aberystwyth-FGD.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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On a lighter note, which is the longest through service which starts and ends in Wales?

The longest feasible route is 360 miles - Holyhead-Crewe-Cardiff-Fishguard (marginally further than Milford Haven/Pembroke Dock) .
Would get you well into Scotland from Euston/King's Cross, and much further than Paddington-Penzance.

I'm not sure ATW have ever run this whole route with one train, but I think maybe Wales and West did.
 

tbtc

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Bangor to Liverpool is a fair old way to commute

But a lot shorter than Bangor to Birmingham or Bangor to Cardiff (though these cities obviously have regular trains to/from North Wales, unlike Liverpool).

On a Saturday morning with sport on at the Millennium stadium I'd guess that Cardiff would be the busier destination from Bangor (of those three cities). But the other 360 days of the year?
 

transmanche

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The much criticised services from Holyhead to the south are, on the whole, well used. They do, after all, serve a number of important places even if end to end passengers might be a minority
I am a bit bemused by the level of criticism the Cardiff-Holyhead services receive on this forum.

In my mind they are Cardiff-Shrewsbury, Shrewsbury-Chester, Chester-Holyhead services which just happen to be joined together - and they're very useful for intermediate journeys which cross those individual legs.

As for end-to-end passengers being in a minority - well that'll be the case for lots (if not the majority) of services. For example, how many people would travel all the way from Newcastle to Glasgow on the joint Northern/Scotail service? But it's fantastic for intermediate journeys via Carlisle.
 

LNW-GW Joint

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But a lot shorter than Bangor to Birmingham or Bangor to Cardiff (though these cities obviously have regular trains to/from North Wales, unlike Liverpool).

On a Saturday morning with sport on at the Millennium stadium I'd guess that Cardiff would be the busier destination from Bangor (of those three cities). But the other 360 days of the year?

Nothing compares to the draw of the Liverpool and Manchester clubs. I live in an Everton enclave round here.
There are some dedicated Wrexham supporters too (en route to Doncaster in the Cup last time I met them - or was it Rotherham?).

And the odd weird bloke going to Aigburth or Old Trafford for the cricket in the summer (like me).
I've even commuted on ATW to Colwyn Bay to watch Glamorgan v Yorkshire, and to a test match at Edgbaston.
Have yet to make it to Sophia Gardens.

On Saturdays you will find all sorts of shirts on the trains, including the London and Birmingham clubs.
ATW does well out of Chester Races, too.
 

Gwenllian2001

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I am a bit bemused by the level of criticism the Cardiff-Holyhead services receive on this forum.

In my mind they are Cardiff-Shrewsbury, Shrewsbury-Chester, Chester-Holyhead services which just happen to be joined together - and they're very useful for intermediate journeys which cross those individual legs.

As for end-to-end passengers being in a minority - well that'll be the case for lots (if not the majority) of services. For example, how many people would travel all the way from Newcastle to Glasgow on the joint Northern/Scotail service? But it's fantastic for intermediate journeys via Carlisle.

That is exactly the point that I was making. The same applies to Cardiff - Potsmouth; Cardiff - Nottingham and Maesteg - Cheltenham.
 

merlodlliw

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I am a bit bemused by the level of criticism the Cardiff-Holyhead services receive on this forum.

In my mind they are Cardiff-Shrewsbury, Shrewsbury-Chester, Chester-Holyhead services which just happen to be joined together - and they're very useful for intermediate journeys which cross those individual legs.

As for end-to-end passengers being in a minority - well that'll be the case for lots (if not the majority) of services. For example, how many people would travel all the way from Newcastle to Glasgow on the joint Northern/Scotail service? But it's fantastic for intermediate journeys via Carlisle.

Dont be bemused, some of the stock would be better used on West/East up here, a lot of criticism of course is the WAGS, of which WAG1 carries predominately statutory employees to Cardiff(I have used this service between Salop & Cardiff & was a loner) and WAG2 which only carries 20% loading between Salop & Cardiff), the previous services were Manchester/Cardiff the Holyhead to Cardiff bi hourly is only a few years old, the growth in North Wales is West/East. At last WAG2 will be taken back into franchise work off this route.
One has to be a resident up here to understand our needs.
 

Michael.Y

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Dont be bemused, some of the stock would be better used on West/East up here, a lot of criticism of course is the WAGS, of which WAG1 carries predominately statutory employees to Cardiff(I have used this service between Salop & Cardiff & was a loner) and WAG2 which only carries 20% loading between Salop & Cardiff), the previous services were Manchester/Cardiff the Holyhead to Cardiff bi hourly is only a few years old, the growth in North Wales is West/East. At last WAG2 will be taken back into franchise work off this route.
One has to be a resident up here to understand our needs.

But the WAGs are nothing to do with the franchise. As such no criticism can be fairly levelled against the TOC when it's a contracted special. As you've noted, it's being halved now so that frees up stock for more franchise trains.

As the franchise maps were rearranged almost irrevocably from the days of FNW and W&B / W&W, there's not a lot to be done about the connections from the North of Wales to the North of England short of re-drawing the franchise areas again, which, as a lot of rail matters have been devolved, is unlikely to happen. Also, as has been noted elsewhere, if ATW suddenly made applications to serve Liverpool or if DaFT decided to improve Welsh links at the expense of English links to Merseyside, there'd be a massive hoohah from Merseyrail (who are doing very well out of the Chester connections it seems, 4tph), Virgin, London Midland and Northern. ATW would be seen to be muscling in on other franchise territories to suddenly provide a service which was never even deemed necessary in the integrated world of BR.

Just a quick word on the usage of the HHD-CDF -- it is very heavily used by students of Bangor University who live in the Westcountry and Midlands. Also on Saturday just gone we had a lot of lastminuters going on holiday to Prestatyn, Rhyl and Llandudno. But transmanche is essentially right - what you have in these services are three, possibly 4 separate services joined up into one massive 5 hour stock movement. It makes infinitely more sense to me to have these long, integrated journeys than it does to have stock making shorter journeys with long layovers/turnarounds at places like Chester, Shrewsbury etc. The most obvious statement of intent on this front is the fact the 1238 goes all the way to Maesteg. Integrating that journey so that the long-distance express becomes a commuter wagon once it reaches Cardiff is very joined up thinking in my humble opinion.
 

jones_bangor

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Dont be bemused, some of the stock would be better used on West/East up here, a lot of criticism of course is the WAGS, of which WAG1 carries predominately statutory employees to Cardiff(I have used this service between Salop & Cardiff & was a loner) and WAG2 which only carries 20% loading between Salop & Cardiff), the previous services were Manchester/Cardiff the Holyhead to Cardiff bi hourly is only a few years old, the growth in North Wales is West/East. At last WAG2 will be taken back into franchise work off this route.
One has to be a resident up here to understand our needs.

With all due respect, you are a resident of Wrexham in North East Wales - the needs to North West Wales are different again.

I don't think cutting WAG 2 southbound will affect anybody, but the cutting of the popular 16:15 northbound service is bloody minded and will be missed. The Minister dressed all this up as a service enhancement!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
But the WAGs are nothing to do with the franchise. As such no criticism can be fairly levelled against the TOC when it's a contracted special. As you've noted, it's being halved now so that frees up stock for more franchise trains.

It will be duly noted when it comes to renewal of the Wales & Borders franchise that the reason that the former WAG 1 terminates at Chester is because ATW demanded extra money to extend it west, and showed no inclination to "invest". The WAGs had everything to do with addressing an inadequate franchise, but that is not in itself the fault of ATW.
 
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tbtc

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if ATW suddenly made applications to serve Liverpool or if DaFT decided to improve Welsh links at the expense of English links to Merseyside, there'd be a massive hoohah from Merseyrail (who are doing very well out of the Chester connections it seems, 4tph), Virgin, London Midland and Northern. ATW would be seen to be muscling in on other franchise territories to suddenly provide a service which was never even deemed necessary in the integrated world of BR

In the integrated world of BR Holyhead managed to survive with just one train a day to Cardiff. Now there's a train every couple of hours. Plus WAG1 with its First Class. Then money was found for WAG2 on top of this. All of these competing with the direct flights from Anglesey too!

Just a quick word on the usage of the HHD-CDF -- it is very heavily used by students of Bangor University who live in the Westcountry

The Marches route used to have regular trains to/from the Westcountry under BR, even in W&W days. But then so did Liverpool (which lost its links to Cardiff too).

It will be duly noted when it comes to renewal of the Wales & Borders franchise that the reason that the former WAG 1 terminates at Chester is because ATW demanded extra money to extend it west, and showed no inclination to "invest"

Maybe the fact that ATW think this suggests that they don't think all these trains from Cardiff to Holyhead are commercially viable? They've been running it for a few years after all so must know the kind of revenue it brings in.
 

Michael.Y

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In the integrated world of BR Holyhead managed to survive with just one train a day to Cardiff.

True, but BR (sectors and electrification aside) wasn't restricted by geography, BR didn't have to make sure stock was in specific places for specific routes, BR didn't have to answer to devolved governments etc. etc.

And has been said before, don't think of it as a service to Cardiff. Think of it as a service to Chester, which then forms a service to Salop, which then forms a service to Cardiff etc. It's technically the same principal as the HoWL service from Cardiff to Shrewsbury. Uses the same stock, does one continuous route, but is rarely used end-end.
 

transmanche

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One has to be a resident up here to understand our needs.
Well I may not live along the line of the route, but my Mum does and I use the service fairly regularly.

Other than late evenings, the Shrewsbury-Chester section always seems to be well-loaded - so the basic hourly service is needed on this section, irrespective of the train's ultimate destination.

And similarly there always seem to be plenty of people staying on board at Chester - so they appreciate the through service. (I know my Mum appreciates the regular direct service, so she can easily visit relatives in Bangor.)

The complaints about the through service seem to me to be more politically motivated, rather than based on any practicalities.
 

Gwenllian2001

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In the integrated world of BR Holyhead managed to survive with just one train a day to Cardiff. Now there's a train every couple of hours. Plus WAG1 with its First Class. Then money was found for WAG2 on top of this. All of these competing with the direct flights from Anglesey too!

Until almost the end of its existance, BR continued to operate on a 'regional' basis. The former LMS lines in the north were operated as such with little regard to their neighbours. It is notable, however that they didn't see much value in providing a service to Liverpool.

When the LMR took over the Cambrian, it was managed from Stoke on Trent; went downhill rapidly and for years passengers were stuck for hours on suburban DMUs more suitable for inner city services. It wasn't until the regions were abolished that things improved.

It has been pointed out several times that the Holyhead - Cardiff trains actually provide a variety of services with many different traffic flows. One being the healthy number of young people from Hereford visiting the fleshpots of Newport and Cardiff. It doesn't matter how loud you shout or how often you attempt to portray it as a waste of time and money, it is doing okay and it is a sensible way of using rolling stock. Cancelling any of those trains will not bring you an inch nearer to Liverpool. It is simply not a case of either or.
 

Michael.Y

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Great thats all we need, those ugly mersyrail emu's going through Wrexham every hour. Not a fan of those particular EMU's at all. Sorry =(

They won't be so don't worry.

508s resemble 150s strongly so I don't see your objections to them given that 150s run Wrexham-Bidston already.
 

Holly

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... In my mind they are Cardiff-Shrewsbury, Shrewsbury-Chester, Chester-Holyhead services which just happen to be joined together - and they're very useful for intermediate journeys which cross those individual legs.
As for end-to-end passengers being in a minority - well that'll be the case for lots ... .
Interesting though how London terminated trains never seem to be used to provide that type of services.

Even though in days of yore they did. For example Paddington to/from Birkenhead.
 

merlodlliw

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Well I may not live along the line of the route, but my Mum does and I use the service fairly regularly.

Other than late evenings, the Shrewsbury-Chester section always seems to be well-loaded - so the basic hourly service is needed on this section, irrespective of the train's ultimate destination.

And similarly there always seem to be plenty of people staying on board at Chester - so they appreciate the through service. (I know my Mum appreciates the regular direct service, so she can easily visit relatives in Bangor.)

The complaints about the through service seem to me to be more politically motivated, rather than based on any practicalities.

I fully agree the line between Salop & Chester is busy thats why we were stunned to loose two bank holiday services,one of them leaving over 100 stranded at Chester, I fully agree the hourly service should remain & perhaps be strengthened with services to Manchester when Wrexham gets a double track.
I dont know about politically motivated, but the WAG ex & Wagair are political services, example Salop to Newport without a stop at Hereford hub will always cause comment.
The extra trial services to Fishguard were put on by the previous Minister,so why can this Minister not trial a three year to Liverpool,the only possible other toc to complain would be Northern.
 

Joseph_Locke

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Exactly what is the reason why there is no current direct service from Liverpool to North Wales settlements along the North Wales coast line, yet such a service runs from Manchester. Is it to do with franchises?

Answered from a Halton Chord perspective, it is much to do with infrastructure as anything. The north end of Halton Curve doesn't have a crossover, so there is a long wrong road move from Runcorn to get onto it, a move that (not surprisngly) doesn't fit the West Coast timetable at this location.

This is of course fixable, but the result still causes a dent in paths on the WCML, so it has never (yet) found a business case.
 
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Michael.Y

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The extra trial services to Fishguard were put on by the previous Minister,so why can this Minister not trial a three year to Liverpool,the only possible other toc to complain would be Northern.

I can't imagine Merseyrail with their 4 tph provision to suit apparent demand would be too happy about a bigger TOC barging in and saying to passengers "travel with us it'll be quicker than changing at Chester and stopping everywhere on Merseyrail"

Plus as Merseyrail is electrified and ATW stock isn't, I can't imagine the green lobby would be too happy about diesel trains taking business away from nice clean electric trains.
 

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Naturally, I believe that if the Halton Curve should be reinstated, the services should continue to be run by Northern. Remember that the Halton Curve is actually active and Northern is the incumbent TOC that operates it.

If ATW is to improve its links into Merseyside, I believe that the Wrexham-Bidston service should be extended to Birkenhead North, and perhaps sporadic "express" services (by extending the HoWL services) from Shrewsbury. Connecting North and South Wrexham would be very useful to a lot of people.

I disbelieve in a partial electrification of the Borderlands Line - I think if a section (say to Heswall) gets electrified, the truncated section could succomb to Ellesmere Port-Helsby level of service. It either remains diesel to Bidston or it is electrified all the way. Electrification would improve the line's patronage a lot, but since that's not happening, I think ATW's priorities should be sorting out their absolutely abysmally-incorrect statistics on that line and getting an extention to Birkenhead North. Idealistically, this line (along with the other truncated DMU services around Merseyside) should be run by Merseyrail rather than ATW, but its just unviable for Merseyrail to do so.
 

tbtc

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True, but BR (sectors and electrification aside) wasn't restricted by geography, BR didn't have to make sure stock was in specific places for specific routes, BR didn't have to answer to devolved governments etc. etc

BR had to make sure that stock was on specific routes, yes, I'm not sure of your point there.

Are you saying that the devolved government in Cardiff Bay are one of the reasons for the Cardiff - Holyhead services?

And has been said before, don't think of it as a service to Cardiff. Think of it as a service to Chester, which then forms a service to Salop, which then forms a service to Cardiff etc. It's technically the same principal as the HoWL service from Cardiff to Shrewsbury. Uses the same stock, does one continuous route, but is rarely used end-end.

It has been pointed out several times that the Holyhead - Cardiff trains actually provide a variety of services with many different traffic flows

So there'd be no problem if all/most Holyhead - Cardiff trains were replaced by alternative services?

The complaints about the through service seem to me to be more politically motivated, rather than based on any practicalities.

Probably because the huge increase in service (from one train a day to a train every two hours plus WAG1 plus WAG2 plus the flights) appears to be politically motivated?

Until almost the end of its existance, BR continued to operate on a 'regional' basis. The former LMS lines in the north were operated as such with little regard to their neighbours. It is notable, however that they didn't see much value in providing a service to Liverpool

BR ran a much bigger variety of services, like some of the Marches services extending to Liverpool in the north or Bristol in the south (even beyond Bristol on some services) as well as one train a day to Holyhead. Now there's only Manchester or Holyhead at the northern end of the line and everything at the southern end goes to Cardiff (other than working through to Maesteg)

I can't imagine Merseyrail with their 4 tph provision to suit apparent demand would be too happy about a bigger TOC barging in and saying to passengers "travel with us it'll be quicker than changing at Chester and stopping everywhere on Merseyrail"

Its up to the TOCs to bid for paths - just like ATW extended their Cambrian services to Birmingham International or Virgin provided Euston services to Llandudno (since withdrawn) and Wrexham (still running) - then the powers that be decide how to allocate them - not up to Merseyrail.
 

frodshamfella

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Last Saturday a "special" ran from Chester to Liverpool South Parkway, calling at Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn. Train was run in conjuction with the North Cheshire Rail Users Group and Northern Rail, and was an extendsion ( and alteration to aloow the extra stops) of their Saturday morning only Chester-Runcorn service. The two car train was very well supported with supporter wanting tho highlight the use of the curve. I boarded at Frodsham and Travelled LSP, and although i was ready to puchase my ticket, no one came along the very full train to collect it !

Most passengers travelled back on a vintage Crosville bus. I travelled onwards to Acton Bridge. There was an opportunity to look over the work being carried out on the old station building at Frodsham, im not sure if it will return as a passenger facility or something else, but they are doing a smashing job the the building.
 
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Last Saturday a "special" ran from Chester to Liverpool South Parkway, calling at Helsby, Frodsham and Runcorn. Train was run in conjuction with the North Cheshire Rail Users Group and Northern Rail, and was an extendsion ( and alteration to aloow the extra stops) of their Saturday morning only Chester-Runcorn service. The two car train was very well supported with supporter wanting tho highlight the use of the curve. I boarded at Frodsham and Travelled LSP, and although i was ready to puchase my ticket, no one came along the very full train to collect it !

Most passengers travelled back on a vintage Crosville bus. I travelled onwards to Acton Bridge. There was an opportunity to look over the work being carried out on the old station building at Frodsham, im not sure if it will return as a passenger facility or something else, but they are doing a smashing job the the building.


I'm afraid I delayed the guard/conductor. There were four of us travelling to Lime St and I first slowed things down whilst the poor chap had to search for a valid route for me to get a return ticket on, then his machine chewed up our tickets and he had to start again. We were almost at Runcorn before he had finished with us. :D
 

Gwenllian2001

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It is interesting that the heading of this thread gives a somewhat disingenuous impression of what the Minister's intentions or, more like wishes, may be. I quote:

Mr Sargeant was already working with Network Rail over future investments for improvements across Wales.
“I want to see North Wales properly connected to the electric network around Liverpool,” he said.

As a politician, he can say anything. He has an electorate to placate. He is, in fact, far more interested in road improvements and is quite happy to commit millions to widening the 'Heads of the Valleys Road' while the Ebbw Vale Line remains unfinished.

He has no option but to work with Network Rail. He has very little say in the matter. I don't care what political party he belongs to but bull**** is the same in any language.
 

tbtc

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It is interesting that the heading of this thread gives a somewhat disingenuous impression of what the Minister's intentions or, more like wishes, may be. I quote:

Mr Sargeant was already working with Network Rail over future investments for improvements across Wales.
“I want to see North Wales properly connected to the electric network around Liverpool,” he said.

As a politician, he can say anything. He has an electorate to placate. He is, in fact, far more interested in road improvements and is quite happy to commit millions to widening the 'Heads of the Valleys Road' while the Ebbw Vale Line remains unfinished.

He has no option but to work with Network Rail. He has very little say in the matter. I don't care what political party he belongs to but bull**** is the same in any language.

Yet Politicians can arrange for WAG1 and WAG2 to run - was that to placate an electorate too?
 

PR1Berske

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Are you suggesting that the WAG member for Anglesey was spending this money to placate the Plaid voters?

Ynys Mon is a highly marginal swing seat, so "probably, yes" is the answer.
 
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