North Wales Main Line Electrification

[berneyarms]

Pre Covid Heathrow to Dublin was Rank #10 post covid it is 47/48th

That sounds completely wrong.

Dublin Airport are reporting that monthly passenger numbers are now ahead of 2019 comparatives so I don’t see how that could be even close to accurate.

Aer Lingus alone have 88 flights a week between Dublin and Heathrow in each direction, and BA a further 36.

This summer there are 817 flights a week in each direction between Dublin airport and GB airports across all airlines, 320 of which are to London airports.

A lot of people tend to travel by ship from UK to Dublin; the ships still get very busy with passengers and if you book in advance you can take advantage of cheaper rail/sail advance tickets.

They can fit the number of sail/rail passengers between both ferries on one double deck bus and it’s not even full.

I don't have exact figures to hand but if you take a Stena ferry from Holyhead to Dublin you'll more than likely find it busy. I suspect the ship wins hands down in terms of loadings. You also have to consider that the plane chucks out more pollution and uses more fuel than the ship and carries less passengers per single flights compared with per single crossing. The rail/sea might be slower but it is a more efficient and environmentally friendly mode of transport than air.

It was very popular in the 1990s, the HSS provided a competitive crossing time. The time advantage for flying is only such because it is currently available; take these flights away and force people to take the ferry (with faster ones built to provide journey times similar to the initial HSS timings, and cheaper fares) and people will soon re-adjust, particularly people going for leisure.

You do realise that Dublin Airport have just opened a brand new runway that will see numbers using the airport expand even further?

Already this year Dublin Airport are reporting monthly passenger numbers in excess of the pre-covid figures in 2023.

The notion that Irish people are going to flock in their droves to a lengthy ferry and rail journey to get to GB over a far shorter flight is fantasy stuff.

As an island nation on the periphery of Europe, air travel and the connectivity is vital to our economy and is certainly not going to go anywhere anytime soon.

Ryanair revolutionised the air travel market, and I don’t see it changing anytime soon. 1980s style prohibitive air fares aren’t even remotely on the horizon.

 

[JSBark]

How many is 'a lot', particularly in comparison to flying?

My crayons still want the 777s to go through to Crewe anyway.....

I’d like a fast and frequent service between Chester and Liverpool. Halton Curve doesn’t cut the mustard. How about reinstating some limited four tracking north of Chester, and running fast ex Liverpool trains beyond Chester to Wrexham, North Wales coast and Crewe?

 

[daodao]

I’d like a fast and frequent service between Chester and Liverpool.

There already is one, every 15 minutes during the day Mon-Sat, taking 43 minutes.

 

[6Gman]

I’d like a fast and frequent service between Chester and Liverpool. Halton Curve doesn’t cut the mustard. How about reinstating some limited four tracking north of Chester, and running fast ex Liverpool trains beyond Chester to Wrexham, North Wales coast and Crewe?

Using what rolling stock?

 

[zwk500]

I’d like a fast and frequent service between Chester and Liverpool. Halton Curve doesn’t cut the mustard. How about reinstating some limited four tracking north of Chester, and running fast ex Liverpool trains beyond Chester to Wrexham, North Wales coast and Crewe?

Which route between Liverpool and Chester are you proposing if not the Halton Curve?

 

[6Gman]

Which route between Liverpool and Chester are you proposing if not the Halton Curve?

The suggestion seems to be Liverpool Loop - B'head - then fast to Chester (using restored 4-tracking) and then running to various destinations.

This would, of course, require stock that could operate round the Loop and be appropriate for through running to Wrexham, Llandudno, Crewe or wherever else is being proposed, which would be challenging.

 

[zwk500]

The suggestion seems to be Liverpool Loop - B'head - then fast to Chester (using restored 4-tracking) and then running to various destinations.

This would, of course, require stock that could operate round the Loop and be appropriate for through running to Wrexham, Llandudno, Crewe or wherever else is being proposed, which would be challenging.

The reversal of 1 train an hour (The Birmingham/Cardiff-Holyhead) causes problems enough at Chester...

 

[Chester1]

I’d like a fast and frequent service between Chester and Liverpool. Halton Curve doesn’t cut the mustard. How about reinstating some limited four tracking north of Chester, and running fast ex Liverpool trains beyond Chester to Wrexham, North Wales coast and Crewe?

Why mess up Merseyrail?

The creation of the Wirral lines in their current form occured by:

1) Removing long distance services from the Wirral in 1960s

2) Building the loop in the 70s

3) Extending electrification to Hooton in 1980s and to Chester and Ellesmere Port in early 90s.

The current plans for future growth are consistent with what that created. It will stay a largely segregated, high frequency service with a (near) universal stopping pattern.

If people on Wirral want long distance services they change at Liverpool or Chester. There is a Liverpool - North Wales market but that will be adequately served by the planned hourly Liverpool - Llandudno service via Halton curve.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Given the total collapse of the mainline 25kV electrification programme, I doubt the NWML will be electrified in our lifetimes.
It will be battery trains or closure

It might be battery trains, it might be hydrogen trains. Given the mess rail decarbonisation in the UK is in at present it is even possible (in my view both highly undesirable and highly likely) that diesel trains (perhaps fuelled by biodiesel rather than fossil-fuel) will continue to be used. The North Wales Main Line should be electrified but I agree it is not looking good at the moment - if however the Government tells us that it cannot afford electrification and the only option is closure then that is ridiculous unless air travel is (effectively) banned. Emissions at altitude have a higher global warming potential; even water vapour emissions are a potentially serious issue at altitude so hydrogen powered aircraft aren't a solution and demonising diesel trains to the extent that closure becomes the outcome while airlines are still busy polluting the upper atmosphere is madness.

Exactly. Unless short haul flights get banned or taxed/priced out of existence, that is your main and low cost competition right there. Tunnel WILL NOT get built.

A ship can carry a lot more passengers though. If environmental factors lead to planes being restricted for mainly long-haul trips, the sea service market will explode on routes like UK to Dublin, perhaps we need to start planning for this now to meet potential future growth?
And the fact remains, the plane is a lot less environmentally friendly than the train-ferry combination for UK-Ireland journeys.

I believe there are some (battery-powered) zero-emission light aircraft, but I doubt these will be developed into something capable of carrying a large number of passengers over a long distance. Hopefully it will prove possible to provide things like 'lifeline flights' to Scottish islands but would something like London-Dublin be pratical? Perhaps, perhaps not - but either way could electric aircraft crossing the Irish Sea at/near the shortest points (eg. Dublin to RAF Valley and Waterford to Haverfordwest airport) be an alternative to ferries in that case?

Isn't the NWML a handful of short trains an hour? Doesn't sound much of a business case for a lot of miles of electrification.
The only bit I would have thought would be any kind of priority would be Crewe/Warrington to Wrexham.

Currently Crewe-Llandudno has two trains per hour and Llandundo Junction to Holyhead one train per hour I think but there are some Avanti workings to Holyhead on top of that and an extra hourly service Chester-Bangor has been promissed since 2018 by the TfW franchise but not before full introduction of the Cavity Abominations (class 197s). So that's potentially 3.5 trains per hour between Chester and Llandudndo Junction with the .5 being a rough guestimate for the Euston service (which of course is formed of 5 carriages). Even if we assume all the TfW trains were only 2-cars (which they aren't) that is 6-cars per hour east of Llandudno Junction (and 4-cars per hour as far as Bangor) even without the Euston service.

Regarding electrification of the North Wales mainline, it is probably not the highest priority line even within Wales, though most of it would probably be included if Wales were to follow Scotland and come up with a whole-railway decarbonisation strategy. To be honest, regional whole railway decarbonisation strategies are what we need, because currently England in particular just seems to be floating along without a plan.

I would imagine that Swansea would be the next target after those already announced. Then it depends on strategies and technologies, but even so I really cannot see electrification ever across the Conwy river.

I agree, the North Wales Coast is not a priority for electrification, even if only looking within Wales. However, that doesn't mean electrification is not the right course of action eventually (after all, Network Rail did produce the beginings of a whole-railway decarbonisation strategy for the entire GB network and wires to Holyhead are the recommended solution, unfortunately the Government were simply not prepared to commit to implementing it in full) - just that this route should be towards the back of the queue.

Within Wales, while Cardiff-Swansea would be the obvious priority, given TfW's rolling stock suituation perhaps Cardiff-Barry/Penarth will actually end up being done first.

Nobody anywhere on the globe is proposing any aviation policy that restricts flights over bodies of water. It is simply never going to happen that what is now an extremely convenient short trip becomes 1 full day of travelling on either end.

Yes, restricting flights will politically be very difficult - if somebody from the future travelled back in time and told me that the nations of the world had achieved internal 'net-zero' emissions by 2050 but had failed to avert the climate collapase due to internation aviation emissions I would only be surprised by the time-travel and not by the report. Somebody needs to bite the bullet and cut air travel drastically.

If people on Wirral want long distance services they change at Liverpool or Chester. There is a Liverpool - North Wales market but that will be adequately served by the planned hourly Liverpool - Llandudno service via Halton curve.

Not according to the North Wales Transport Commission interim report which backs integration of the Borderlands Line with the Merseyrail network including sending 777s through to Wrexham. I think Merseyrail from Liverpool to Chester is actually quicker than the current Halton curve services, but using a Metro train with no toilets (777) all the way out to Wrexham doesn't seem too clever.

 

[GRALISTAIR]

Ryanair revolutionised the air travel market, and I don’t see it changing anytime soon. 1980s style prohibitive air fares aren’t even remotely on the horizon.

absolutely correct 10/10 no matter how painful it is for some to admit.

 

[Chester1]

I believe there are some (battery-powered) zero-emission light aircraft, but I doubt these will be developed into something capable of carrying a large number of passengers over a long distance. Hopefully it will prove possible to provide things like 'lifeline flights' to Scottish islands but would something like London-Dublin be pratical? Perhaps, perhaps not - but either way could electric aircraft crossing the Irish Sea at/near the shortest points (eg. Dublin to RAF Valley and Waterford to Haverfordwest airport) be an alternative to ferries in that case?

Eviation Alice flew last year and is due to deliver its first orders in 2027. Its 2 crew, 9 passengers, 300mph top speed and 290 mile range. Its perfect for Scottish isles services next time the Scottish government reviews subsidies. I suspect the issue with electric planes scaling up will be range more than size. An Alice could fly Dublin to Liverpool and Manchester today. London is theoretically possible but would probably be too much of a stretch for a regular service. Rail sail is never coming back as a significant proportion of journeys.

Yes, restricting flights will politically be very difficult - if somebody from the future travelled back in time and told me that the nations of the world had achieved internal 'net-zero' emissions by 2050 but had failed to avert the climate collapase due to internation aviation emissions I would only be surprised by the time-travel and not by the report. Somebody needs to bite the bullet and cut air travel drastically.

Maybe restrictions will be necessary if its the only significant source of carbon emissions by 2050 but our current travel patterns and lifestyles may (to the horror of some environmentalists) become sustainable. There are three promising areas of technology that should allow aviation emissions to fall dramatically. Electric planes, hybrid planes and synthetic fuel. I am in my 30s and fully expect to take hybrid planes to the med by the time I retire. A hybrid turbo prop using a mix of synthetic fuel and renewable electricity will have a vastly reduced carbon foot print compared with a 737.

Not according to the North Wales Transport Commission interim report which backs integration of the Borderlands Line with the Merseyrail network including sending 777s through to Wrexham. I think Merseyrail from Liverpool to Chester is actually quicker than the current Halton curve services, but using a Metro train with no toilets (777) all the way out to Wrexham doesn't seem too clever.

Borderlands Line being taken over by Merseyrail would reinforce the segregated and near universal nature of Merseyrail services. There could be some stop skipping at southern end but no overtaking. The Halton curve service is slightly slower between Liverpool and Chester but its primarily due to pathing and rolling stock. A service with a low priority into Lime Street and pathed for a 150 will struggle with even a 40 year old EMU. The Halton Curve route is adequate and its not worth drastically changing nature of Merseyrail to save 5 minutes for long distance passengers.

Liverpool to Cardiff services will be faster for Wrexham passengers than going via Merseyrail, even if they take over Borderlands line. The assumption will be that few non enthusiasts would do end to end journey if Merseyrail operates to Wrexham. I bet some will complain about length of journey and lack of toilets like the criticism of Metrolink's airport line (which was not designed for end to end journeys).

 

[GRALISTAIR]

I see there has been some Twitter or X or whatever activity on this subject (North Wales sparks) with Nigel Harris weighing in. Basically a consultant saying not possible due to tunnels and of course Nigel Harris asking - seriously?

 

[cle]

I would think Halton services could be run faster, with bi-modes or indeed eventual electrification - which could originate in Warrington.

They do feel slow for the longer distance route, clearly the Merseyrail route would be much faster if it were possible to run express services.

If we’re doing cars per hour, is Cardiff-Swansea really that big a win? I understand it - but the same stock would run it. Not wildly transformational as there isn’t that much other frequent service along there. It’s 2-4 tph, same as the north, and those others are short/regional.

 

[Trainbike46]

I would think Halton services could be run faster, with bi-modes or indeed eventual electrification - which could originate in Warrington.

They do feel slow for the longer distance route, clearly the Merseyrail route would be much faster if it were possible to run express services.

If we’re doing cars per hour, is Cardiff-Swansea really that big a win? I understand it - but the same stock would run it. Not wildly transformational as there isn’t that much other frequent service along there. It’s 2-4 tph, same as the north, and those others are short/regional.

I believe there is more freight on parts of Cardiff-Swansea compared to North Wales, but happy to be corrected. Also remember that a lot of the trains on cardiff-swansea are 9-cars, whereas in the norh few services are longer than 5 cars

 

[Chester1]

I believe there is more freight on parts of Cardiff-Swansea compared to North Wales, but happy to be corrected. Also remember that a lot of the trains on cardiff-swansea are 9-cars, whereas in the norh few services are longer than 5 cars

The business case is in favour of South Wales. The only factor in favour of North Wales is electoral. There are five seats along the line in the new parliamentary boundaries that are now law and will be used in next election. Four of the five are marginal. The cost of electrification needs to drop considerably for this to matter though. Currently the cost of electrifying the north wales mainline will be eye watering.

 

[Rhydgaled]

Eviation Alice flew last year and is due to deliver its first orders in 2027. Its 2 crew, 9 passengers, 300mph top speed and 290 mile range. Its perfect for Scottish isles services next time the Scottish government reviews subsidies. I suspect the issue with electric planes scaling up will be range more than size. An Alice could fly Dublin to Liverpool and Manchester today. London is theoretically possible but would probably be too much of a stretch for a regular service. Rail sail is never coming back as a significant proportion of journeys.

Interesting; it certainly looks as if the range is very nearly there for England-Ireland but I doubt a passenger capacity of only 9 comes anywhere close to current aircraft on London-Dublin?

Maybe restrictions will be necessary if its the only significant source of carbon emissions by 2050 but our current travel patterns and lifestyles may (to the horror of some environmentalists) become sustainable. There are three promising areas of technology that should allow aviation emissions to fall dramatically. Electric planes, hybrid planes and synthetic fuel. I am in my 30s and fully expect to take hybrid planes to the med by the time I retire. A hybrid turbo prop using a mix of synthetic fuel and renewable electricity will have a vastly reduced carbon foot print compared with a 737.

Hybrid planes and synthetic fuel don't appear to be a solution to the problem to me. Yes, improving the fuel efficiency with hybrid technology would be a big help but burning anything (fossil fuel, synthetic fuel or even hydrogen) at altitude is still a dangerous game. I'm not even sure if electric aircraft entirely solve the problem (are vapour trails entirely the result of the aircraft's engine emissions or is some of it a result of putting a big lump of metal high into the air?), but they might which is more than can be said for the alternatives.

Borderlands Line being taken over by Merseyrail would reinforce the segregated and near universal nature of Merseyrail services. There could be some stop skipping at southern end but no overtaking. The Halton curve service is slightly slower between Liverpool and Chester but its primarily due to pathing and rolling stock. A service with a low priority into Lime Street and pathed for a 150 will struggle with even a 40 year old EMU. The Halton Curve route is adequate and its not worth drastically changing nature of Merseyrail to save 5 minutes for long distance passengers.

Liverpool to Cardiff services will be faster for Wrexham passengers than going via Merseyrail, even if they take over Borderlands line. The assumption will be that few non enthusiasts would do end to end journey if Merseyrail operates to Wrexham. I bet some will complain about length of journey and lack of toilets like the criticism of Metrolink's airport line (which was not designed for end to end journeys).

I wasn't trying suggest skip-stopping or overtaking on Merseyrail services (including the Borderlands line if that does become part of Merseyrail) - rather that either:

a. Wrexham-Liverpool (and possibly Shotton-Liverpool) via the Halton curve services will need to be faster than travelling via Bidston so that (like the Metrolink airport line) the Merseyrail service isn't used for long journeys or​

b. Merseyrail will need to introduce a more outer-suburban variant of their trains (with a toilet) for use on the Borderlands service​

If we’re doing cars per hour, is Cardiff-Swansea really that big a win? I understand it - but the same stock would run it. Not wildly transformational as there isn’t that much other frequent service along there. It’s 2-4 tph, same as the north, and those others are short/regional.

Isn't there supposed to be a minimum of 3tph coming (1 Swansea-London, 1 Carmarthen/Milford-Manchester/Cardiff and 1 Swanline stopper), increasing to 5tph between Bridgend and Cardiff (2tph Maesteg services) as part of the TfW upgrade promises, with the second Cardiff-London also extending to Swansea in some hours?

While the London trains could theoretically be the same stock, TfW workings would have to use different stock to make use of the wires since as only their 756s and 398s will have a pantograph and those aren't planned to run on this route. I suppose the 231s might (and I really hope they will) be easily converted to bi-mode with a pantograph added, but even then those are only intended to work the Maesteg services as far as I know. Putting those issues aside for now, let's say 16 carriages per hour (9-car London, 5-car Manchester-Milford and 2-car Swanline) west of Bridgend and 20-24 carriages per hour between Cardiff and Bridgend (4-car from Maesteg, either once (as-now) or twice per hour). Personally, I think provision needs to be made for faster trains to overtake the Swanline and Maesteg stoppers in order to enable more services such as a Swansea-Bristol semi-fast (which, west of Cardiff, would call at Bridgend, Pyle, Port Talbot Parkway and Neath) or a 2nd Swanline each hour.

Returning to the London trains, while not having much impact by itself, combined with completing GWEP to Oxford and Bristol it would enable a return to the original plan to have 801s (or, prefrably in my view, 803s without the emergency genset) which (if we had a 'guiding mind' for the rail industry that wants the industry to thrive and prioritises passenger comfort and decarbonisation) as I wrote on another topic last night would potentially be transformational for XC.

I believe there is more freight on parts of Cardiff-Swansea compared to North Wales, but happy to be corrected.

I think you're right there. Happy to be corrected, as I haven't been managing to keep up with the North Wales Rail Newsletter website recently, but I believe there is very little rail freight on the North Wales Coast Line at all while down south there is a major freight terminal and/or depot at Margam near Port Talbot.

The business case is in favour of South Wales. The only factor in favour of North Wales is electoral. There are five seats along the line in the new parliamentary boundaries that are now law and will be used in next election. Four of the five are marginal.

How is it known whether the seats are marginal given that we haven't had a general election using the new boundaries yet?

Currently the cost of electrifying the north wales mainline will be eye watering.

That is probably true; it didn't stop Network Rail listing the route as 'Core Electrification' (ie. not 'Ancillary Electrification') in the TDNS though.

 

[Chester1]

Interesting; it certainly looks as if the range is very nearly there for England-Ireland but I doubt a passenger capacity of only 9 comes anywhere close to current aircraft on London-Dublin?


Hybrid planes and synthetic fuel don't appear to be a solution to the problem to me. Yes, improving the fuel efficiency with hybrid technology would be a big help but burning anything (fossil fuel, synthetic fuel or even hydrogen) at altitude is still a dangerous game. I'm not even sure if electric aircraft entirely solve the problem (are vapour trails entirely the result of the aircraft's engine emissions or is some of it a result of putting a big lump of metal high into the air?), but they might which is more than can be said for the alternatives.

I think the electric planes would need to get to about 50 passengers before they would be commercially viable for intercity routes like Manchester or Liverpool to Dublin. 9 passengers is a start and will hopefully be built on.

Hybrid planes and synthetic fuels are not the end solution but they will hopefully be big steps towards decarbonisation. Carbon released at altitude is worse than at ground level but a battery plane being up in the air is not much different to battery ships, cars or trains. Contrails are mostly caused by exhaust than changes in air pressure. Potentially there could be some residual environmental problems caused by aviation but I think trying to block electric planes on environmental grounds would push most people past their political breaking point!

Back to the thread topic, Dublin - Liverpool/Manchester should be amongst the first aviation routes to decarbonise so I can't see rail sail ever being more than a fringe option for anyone traveling from England or Flintshire. Its already the obvious choice for residents of Conwy, Anglesey and Gwynedd but they are tiny markets.

I wasn't trying suggest skip-stopping or overtaking on Merseyrail services (including the Borderlands line if that does become part of Merseyrail) - rather that either:

a. Wrexham-Liverpool (and possibly Shotton-Liverpool) via the Halton curve services will need to be faster than travelling via Bidston so that (like the Metrolink airport line) the Merseyrail service isn't used for long journeys or​

b. Merseyrail will need to introduce a more outer-suburban variant of their trains (with a toilet) for use on the Borderlands service​

Ok that makes more sense! Wrexham - Liverpool is faster via Chester. Shotton is faster via Bidston but 777 journey time would be only ~50 minutes to Liverpool. Its not worth having a subtype of 777 and paying the facilities to service trains with toilets. The best solution would be making sure toilets are open at Bidston and Birkenhead North so in an emergency passengers can get off train, make use of facilities and then take next train to Liverpool.

How is it known whether the seats are marginal given that we haven't had a general election using the new boundaries yet?

Results are published for each polling station so its easy to calculate a theoretical new result for a constituency. There are websites that will give you the theoretical outcome for every constituency in UK had the 2019 General Election been held under the July 2023 boundaries. The boundaries effect some peoples voting decisions e.g. personal votes for popular candidates and tactical voting, so the estimates aren't 100% accurate but they provide a good feel for each constituency. Three along the route are Labour - Tory marginals on paper, although I bet all three will go Labour next year. Anglesey is unchanged (it was fixed in legislation to avoid having to be linked to mainland to reach the minimum electorate size). Ynys Mon is a three way Con-Lab-PC marginal. Alyn and Deeside is safe Labour seat. These things only really start to matter when business cases are most of the way there though.

 

[6Gman]

Results are published for each polling station so its easy to calculate a theoretical new result for a constituency. There are websites that will give you the theoretical outcome for every constituency in UK had the 2019 General Election been held under the July 2023 boundaries. The boundaries effect some peoples voting decisions e.g. personal votes for popular candidates and tactical voting, so the estimates aren't 100% accurate but they provide a good feel for each constituency. Three along the route are Labour - Tory marginals on paper, although I bet all three will go Labour next year. Anglesey is unchanged (it was fixed in legislation to avoid having to be linked to mainland to reach the minimum electorate size). Ynys Mon is a three way Con-Lab-PC marginal. Alyn and Deeside is safe Labour seat. These things only really start to matter when business cases are most of the way there though.

Totally off-topic, but results are not published by polling station. Estimates can be prepared based on local election results and "feel" (the political parties sometimes "sample" the vote at the count).

On the substantive point of any impact on election outcomes we have to realise that transport policy is way down the list of priorities for most voters.

 

[Rhydgaled]

I think the electric planes would need to get to about 50 passengers before they would be commercially viable for intercity routes like Manchester or Liverpool to Dublin. 9 passengers is a start and will hopefully be built on.

Some way to go yet then. Hopefully that will eventually be sorted but maybe there will be a need for a temporary suspension of flights for a few years while we wait for suffiicently large battery powered aircraft.

Carbon released at altitude is worse than at ground level

Not just carbon but (probably) water vapour is (much) worse at altitude too.

but a battery plane being up in the air is not much different to battery ships, cars or trains. Contrails are mostly caused by exhaust than changes in air pressure.

That's a relief. I was concerned that contrails could be a result of the temperature difference between the air and the material the aircraft is made of (which sometimes causes puffs of steam/cloud to appear along the wings of aircraft).

Results are published for each polling station so its easy to calculate a theoretical new result for a constituency.

Where are these results published?

 

[6Gman]

Where are these results published?

As I mentioned in post #80 they are not normally published at polling district/station level.

Not least because they are not normally counted (i.e. assigned to candidates) at a polling district level. They are verified (i.e. checked that the number of ballot papers matches the number issued) but they are then mixed with ballots from other polling districts before being assigned to individual candidates.

Believe me, I've been attending election counts since 1979 and have never seen results published by polling district!

 

[Peter Mugridge]

That's a relief. I was concerned that contrails could be a result of the temperature difference between the air and the material the aircraft is made of (which sometimes causes puffs of steam/cloud to appear along the wings of aircraft).

It's just lower air pressure in humid conditions causing condensation over the wings which creates those puffs.

 

[Cowley]

Pretty much all of the aviation discussions are off topic for this thread so can that be carried on here now please:

The future of flying - Electric planes or bans on flying?

Some way to go yet then. Hopefully that will eventually be sorted but maybe there will be a need for a temporary suspension of flights for a few years while we wait for suffiicently large battery powered aircraft. Not just carbon but (probably) water vapour is (much) worse at altitude too...

www.railforums.co.uk

Thanks

 

[Caaardiff]

With todays announcement of the remaining HS2 being cancelled and money reallocated to other projects, one of which being discussed is North Wales Electrification, the question is, is it worth it?
Is this just the Government pacifying the Welsh Government to shut them about the HS2 money originally being said to benefit Wales, and thus no money given to Wales as a consequence?
What benefit will electrification bring to the line? Aside from Avanti's service, there will be no benefit to TFW services given the huge order for 197's that are being introduced. Improvements to capacity on the line would be more welcome than electrification.
Electrification of Cardiff - Swansea would make more sense, not just for GWR trains, but allows TFW to order more 756's for local services along the line, and cascading of 231's to other routes that won't be electrified.

Or more importantly, will it actually happen? Or is it just Tory spin?

 

[Trainbike46]

With todays announcement of the remaining HS2 being cancelled and money reallocated to other projects, one of which being discussed is North Wales Electrification, the question is, is it worth it?
Is this just the Government pacifying the Welsh Government to shut them about the HS2 money originally being said to benefit Wales, and thus no money given to Wales as a consequence?
What benefit will electrification bring to the line? Aside from Avanti's service, there will be no benefit to TFW services given the huge order for 197's that are being introduced. Improvements to capacity on the line would be more welcome than electrification.
Electrification of Cardiff - Swansea would make more sense, not just for GWR trains, but allows TFW to order more 756's for local services along the line, and cascading of 231's to other routes that won't be electrified.

Or more importantly, will it actually happen? Or is it just Tory spin?

I would be sceptical of any promises from the government

As an aside, the 231s were designed to be ready for adaptation to electric or bimode operation, so an alternative to ordering more trains would be to adapt the 231s

 

[LLivery]

With todays announcement of the remaining HS2 being cancelled and money reallocated to other projects, one of which being discussed is North Wales Electrification, the question is, is it worth it?
Is this just the Government pacifying the Welsh Government to shut them about the HS2 money originally being said to benefit Wales, and thus no money given to Wales as a consequence?
What benefit will electrification bring to the line? Aside from Avanti's service, there will be no benefit to TFW services given the huge order for 197's that are being introduced. Improvements to capacity on the line would be more welcome than electrification.
Electrification of Cardiff - Swansea would make more sense, not just for GWR trains, but allows TFW to order more 756's for local services along the line, and cascading of 231's to other routes that won't be electrified.

Or more importantly, will it actually happen? Or is it just Tory spin?

Bold. That's exactly what is it.

Will it happen? If NR was devolved in Wales, I'd say yes. Without devolution, I'm doubtful

Cardiff to Swansea would be better

 

[507020]

With todays announcement of the remaining HS2 being cancelled and money reallocated to other projects, one of which being discussed is North Wales Electrification, the question is, is it worth it?
Is this just the Government pacifying the Welsh Government to shut them about the HS2 money originally being said to benefit Wales, and thus no money given to Wales as a consequence?
What benefit will electrification bring to the line? Aside from Avanti's service, there will be no benefit to TFW services given the huge order for 197's that are being introduced. Improvements to capacity on the line would be more welcome than electrification.
Electrification of Cardiff - Swansea would make more sense, not just for GWR trains, but allows TFW to order more 756's for local services along the line, and cascading of 231's to other routes that won't be electrified.

Or more importantly, will it actually happen? Or is it just Tory spin?

Electrification from Crewe to Chester and reopening of the line from Menai Bridge to Afon Wen and branches to Llanberis and Bethesda would arguably be more useful than full electrification to Holyhead immediately, in the absence of an electrific fleet to operate TfW services, unless they want to take 379s or 350/2s etc. Additional services to Llanberis, Pwllheli and Machynlleth would provide additional capacity on the main line as far as Bangor.

But this is an entirely separate problem to the scrapping of HS2. There is no shortage potential transport projects in England and Wales outside London and the South East, but not building HS2 does not mean a single one of them has any greater chance of being funded, especially not by a “government” that likes to pretend it has any power for the few months it has left in existence.

 

[mmh]

I'm all for rail to new destinations, but what would be the point of branches to Llanberis and Bethesda? Both would be happy with a decent bus service to Caernarfon / Bangor.

 

[Mikey C]

With todays announcement of the remaining HS2 being cancelled and money reallocated to other projects, one of which being discussed is North Wales Electrification, the question is, is it worth it?
Is this just the Government pacifying the Welsh Government to shut them about the HS2 money originally being said to benefit Wales, and thus no money given to Wales as a consequence?
What benefit will electrification bring to the line? Aside from Avanti's service, there will be no benefit to TFW services given the huge order for 197's that are being introduced. Improvements to capacity on the line would be more welcome than electrification.
Electrification of Cardiff - Swansea would make more sense, not just for GWR trains, but allows TFW to order more 756's for local services along the line, and cascading of 231's to other routes that won't be electrified.

Or more importantly, will it actually happen? Or is it just Tory spin?

Presumably the 197s operating to Manchester etc could be replaced by EMUs and moved elsewhere?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Electrification from Crewe to Chester and reopening of the line from Menai Bridge to Afon Wen and branches to Llanberis and Bethesda would arguably be

...a waste of money.

Caernarfon absolutely, but there's no need to go beyond.

Llanberis just needs a significant upgrade of Sherpa'r Wyddfa/Trawscymru and for that to be integrated into rail timetables and fares.

Presumably the 197s operating to Manchester etc could be replaced by EMUs and moved elsewhere?

Plenty of places 197s would be useful. First job probably to bin off the knackered old 153s kept for the Heart of Wales line and replace with 2-car 197s. Next job to scrap the junk that is the 230 and do the same there.

And away from TfW it won't be long before we're considering replacing the likes of 170s, e.g. on EMR.

 

[3RDGEN]

If you electrify the route you can then use HS2, if the planned Handsacre link survives, for the southern part of the service and speed up London - North Wales services. The Welsh Assembly gets accused of favouring South Wales / Cardiff for investment so this project also counters that, a bit of politics maybe at play.