North Wales Questions

[Holly]

... As for the Shotton curve, it would give a marginally shorter journey time for a through service from North Wales to Merseyside compared with going to Chester and reversing but would mean losing the Chester call, which is also quite a major traffic generator to and from N. Wales.
But assuming that diesels would be banned from the tunnels under the Mersey, ...

I don't recall talk of a W-N chord.
There was at one time talk of a freight (steel) chord E-N that would facilitate closure of the Borderlands line to Wrexham.
There was a historic chord W-S, to access Connah's Quay docks that could conceivably be reinstated to provide a Coast to Wrexham route but avoiding reversing at Chester and the single line through Rossett. Problem is the Borderlands track is low speed due to poor-to-no maintenance spend.

Merseyrail did look at a possibility of running diesels into the spare (disused) platform at James St. and turning back there. It was built for steam engines (up to 1903) after all; but no chance of ever running around the loop. In the end I think they decided that overhead electrification of the Borderlands route (either 25kVOHLE or 750vDC Metrolink style) would be a better use for money. And then came the bank bailouts leaving no money for anyone else.

Of course if HS2 were somehow to fall through we would probably see electrification almost everywhere instead, for purely political reasons.

 

[jones_bangor]

The WAG Express was the brainchild of IWJ as was WAGAIR he was the Plaid Minister who proposed both & nodded in by Labour as a sweetner in a quid pro que.

Funny that Labour are keeping both going then....nothing to do with it being a collective decision.

Anyway, we know what the Tories would do, just as well they'll never get in, ever if they try and change the constituencies to suit them!
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New Curve At Shotton?
I heard a while ago of a plan to build a curve at Shotton between the Borderlands line and the North Wales Coast line. Has this been built, is it going to be built and in what directions will it join the other lines?

I think I mentioned the Shotton Curve..despite being ridiculed by a few members. To me seems a better option for increasing capacity at busy times, rather than the redoubling that isn't really a redoubling between Saltney & Wrexham...there will still be a single line section despite spending £10s of millions. Redouble a short section south of Saltney (queying slot off the North Wales mainline) for much much less + achieve the same end result I say.

Fortunately, WG have seen sense and kicked the project towards the long grass.

 

[tbtc]

I think I mentioned the Shotton Curve..

Which way would you put a chord between the lines?

West to South?
West to North?
East to North?
East to South?

 

[jones_bangor]

West to South from Rhyl, South to West from Wrexham.

 

[Penmorfa]

Which way would you put a chord between the lines?

West to South?
West to North?
East to North?
East to South?

There is no merit in ever running passenger trains between the N Wales coast line and the Borderlands line. There may be a demand in the future for new freight traffic to require access to Dee Marsh and Birkenhead docks. If that is so then the only conceivable direction would be East to North

 

[jones_bangor]

There you go.

 

[tbtc]

Cheers for the answers. Not sure why you'd want to reduce the service from North Wales to Chester and from Chester to Wrexham by diverting longer distance services that way - other than that some people might have an aversion to crossing into England

And East to North line sounds interesting, by parts of the Wirral a direct link to the jobs/shopping of Chester and potential for a direct link to Crewe and beyond to places like Neston/Bidston

 

[jones_bangor]

Cheers for the answers. Not sure why you'd want to reduce the service from North Wales to Chester and from Chester to Wrexham by diverting longer distance services that way - other than that some people might have an aversion to crossing into England

Anglophobics! I am not one of those....my better half is a true English rose.

And East to North line sounds interesting, by parts of the Wirral a direct link to the jobs/shopping of Chester and potential for a direct link to Crewe and beyond to places like Neston/Bidston

Lots of potential.

I think my idea for the Shotton link would be to add peak time capacity really, so that a high frequency of trains can be added without compromising connectivity too much.

 

[Penmorfa]

Anglophobics! I am not one of those....my better half is a true English rose.
Lots of potential.

I think my idea for the Shotton link would be to add peak time capacity really, so that a high frequency of trains can be added without compromising connectivity too much.

So you build one mile of track, associated earthworks and bridge works, install 6 sets of points, associated resignalling, etc and deliver trains to a line with a maximum speed of 40 mph and in a direction most passengers don't want to go?

 

[jones_bangor]

So you build one mile of track, associated earthworks and bridge works, install 6 sets of points, associated resignalling, etc and deliver trains to a line with a maximum speed of 40 mph and in a direction most passengers don't want to go?

As I said, this would primarily be a peak time diversionary route.

 

[Penmorfa]

As I said, this would primarily be a peak time diversionary route.

what peak time would that be then?

 

[tbtc]

Lots of potential.

I think my idea for the Shotton link would be to add peak time capacity really, so that a high frequency of trains can be added without compromising connectivity too much.

I'm not sure what trains you'd have use this line (at a "high frequency") though...

 

[jones_bangor]

what peak time would that be then?

Ermmm....people travelling North - South.

No need to just believe certain posters....the demand IS there.

 

[emoaconr]

So you build one mile of track, associated earthworks and bridge works, install 6 sets of points, associated resignalling, etc and deliver trains to a line with a maximum speed of 40 mph and in a direction most passengers don't want to go?

The embankment is already there - I can see why it would be useful for some local services to use that chord, but I think a South-East chord would be better providing a second link to Chester from Wrexham via Buckley.

Anyway, what was I going to say.
Oh yes, the Borderlands Line track is being relaid all through this coming month - much of the new track, sleepers and equipment is out already. The jointed track is in quite poor condition as it is - its much overdue!

 

[Squaddie]

The WAG Express was the brainchild of IWJ as was WAGAIR he was the Plaid Minister who proposed both & nodded in by Labour as a sweetner in a quid pro que.

It seems to me that you're just unwilling to support any initiative by either Plaid or Labour, for purely political reasons.

 

[merlodlliw]

Funny that Labour are keeping both going then....nothing to do with it being a collective decision.Actually it was a collective decision,voted through with the Lib Dems in the budget.

was the £3.5 millions bankrolled to ATW by IWJ when he was Minister,was Labour to throw this away, you have no evidence that when the DVT/67 is ready, both WAGs will run.

As for missing Chester out, ATWs main hub in the North where the majority want to go or pass through, this will never happen.

Bob

 

[tbtc]

As for missing Chester out, ATWs main hub in the North where the majority want to go or pass through, this will never happen.

Spot on Bob - got to face facts that Chester is an important destination for Welsh passengers (as is Liverpool etc)

 

[merlodlliw]

Spot on Bob - got to face facts that Chester is an important destination for Welsh passengers (as is Liverpool etc)

Absolutely important, four tocs, serving major areas in the North West, where the majority of North Wales pax want to get to,and of course Chester station is Managed from Cardiff,so I don't see Cardiff diverting trains away from its key hub in the North.

 

[jones_bangor]

It seems to me that you're just unwilling to support any initiative by either Plaid or Labour, for purely political reasons.

I'm sure the Conservatives cuts agenda are more to certain people's liking. People like Mr Redwood who sent money back from Wales to the UK Treasury in his stint as "Governor General".

was the £3.5 millions bankrolled to ATW by IWJ when he was Minister,was Labour to throw this away, you have no evidence that when the DVT/67 is ready, both WAGs will run.

As for missing Chester out, ATWs main hub in the North where the majority want to go or pass through, this will never happen.

The DVT and 67s are ready...it's just the coaches. These are either ready (pending a respray from silver) or being prepared know, that's in DBs gift to decide.

I suspect you're right, nothing much will happen in the Wrexham - Chester - Shotton triangle. No money, and the Saltney - Wrexham redoubling, sorry partial redoubling, is flawed.

Spot on Bob - got to face facts that Chester is an important destination for Welsh passengers (as is Liverpool etc)

I was talking about peak time diversions, my idea needn't see any reduction in Chester services, and I agree with you about people wanting to go to Chester etc. I happen to think a through service from Rhyl to Liverpool would be very popular.

 

[Gareth Marston]

Lest get some perspective in this Jones Bangor I have been a regular business traveler from Mid Wales to Cardiff and other S Wales destinations for over 10 years now. Despite the post 2005 prioritisation of Cardiff as a connections destination at Shrewsbury from Cambrian trains I am often the only person doing it. I don't see what I would call a volume of people form North Wales doing it either. Yes on a few of the services you do see double figures of passengers doing it. But to get a footfall of 250,000 (c1% of Welsh footfall) - what some part time staffed Valley Line stations manage you would need to average around 700 people a day. I will be very generous and say theirs between 400-500 footfall a day doing north/south.

Its a tiny fragment of the rail market in Wales yet it drives the non Valleys services provided by ATW that is why so many people disagree with the focus on it. I don't disagree with having a handful of genuine Expresses north to south at peak times but the tail should not wag the dog.

 

[jones_bangor]

Lest get some perspective in this Jones Bangor I have been a regular business traveler from Mid Wales to Cardiff and other S Wales destinations for over 10 years now. Despite the post 2005 prioritisation of Cardiff as a connections destination at Shrewsbury from Cambrian trains I am often the only person doing it. I don't see what I would call a volume of people form North Wales doing it either. Yes on a few of the services you do see double figures of passengers doing it. But to get a footfall of 250,000 (c1% of Welsh footfall) - what some part time staffed Valley Line stations manage you would need to average around 700 people a day. I will be very generous and say theirs between 400-500 footfall a day doing north/south.

Its a tiny fragment of the rail market in Wales yet it drives the non Valleys services provided by ATW that is why so many people disagree with the focus on it. I don't disagree with having a handful of genuine Expresses north to south at peak times but the tail should not wag the dog.

I just don't agree.

Most North Wales - South Wales services are really Holyhead - Chester STOP Chester - Shrewsbury STOP Shrewsbury -Cardiff.

You describe it as a tiny fragment - I describe it as an essential linkage for people from North Wales to their administrative capital - Cardiff.

You sit on a 158 for 4 hours from Cardiff whilst it makes its latest request stop at Penmaenmawr!

It is unfair to compare long distance services with Valley Lines commuter services.

Limited stop express services are the way forward. And by the way, I fully support the need for WAG 3; Aberystwyth - Cardiff calling at Machynlleth, Newtown, Welshpool, Shrewsbury and Newport.

 

[tbtc]

You describe it as a tiny fragment - I describe it as an essential linkage for people from North Wales to their administrative capital - Cardiff

...but how few people in North Wales make this journey each day (in total, over the seven or so trains)?

Compared to the larger number going to places like Liverpool, for example?

 

[jones_bangor]

...but how few people in North Wales make this journey each day (in total, over the seven or so trains)?

Compared to the larger number going to places like Liverpool, for example?

You're ignoring my point.

"Most North Wales - South Wales services are really Holyhead - Chester STOP Chester - Shrewsbury STOP Shrewsbury -Cardiff."

There are only 2 x genuine North - South Express services (IC standard).

 

[Penmorfa]

The embankment is already there - I can see why it would be useful for some local services to use that chord, but I think a South-East chord would be better providing a second link to Chester from Wrexham via Buckley.

you'd better not tell the people that live in the way of it then :roll:

Anyway, what was I going to say.
Oh yes, the Borderlands Line track is being relaid all through this coming month - much of the new track, sleepers and equipment is out already. The jointed track is in quite poor condition as it is - its much overdue!

that's interesting, do you have more details? Are they using steel sleepers?

 

[Holly]

you'd better not tell the people that live in the way of it then ....

Looks like a farm building and mostly empty field in which a curved embankment could be built.

A South-East chord at Shotton would surely be cheaper than redoubling the Saltney-Wrexham line?

 

[jones_bangor]

Looks like a farm building and mostly empty field in which a curved embankment could be built.

A South-East chord at Shotton would surely be cheaper than redoubling the Saltney-Wrexham line?

Absolutely. I dob't think the land is particularly farmed, although there is a footpath / cycleway on some of the route.

You could also run Wrexham to Rhyl locals via the Borderlands.

 

[tbtc]

You're ignoring my point.

"Most North Wales - South Wales services are really Holyhead - Chester STOP Chester - Shrewsbury STOP Shrewsbury -Cardiff."

There are only 2 x genuine North - South Express services (IC standard).

You'd be happy enough for the bi-hourly service from Cardiff to Holyhead to be replaced by more Manchester services (as long as the two "premium" services a day are retained)?

 

[merlodlliw]

You're ignoring my point.

"Most North Wales - South Wales services are really Holyhead - Chester STOP Chester - Shrewsbury STOP Shrewsbury -Cardiff."

There are only 2 x genuine North - South Express services (IC standard).

So which two are IC standard, Gerald yes, the 175?.

I am sure many will be delighted about the Subsidy for the WAG Exs & Wagair,when the bus subsidy announced by WG will be cut by almost 30% & their lifeline (Sunday & Late evening services) are withdrawn from April.
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Looks like a farm building and mostly empty field in which a curved embankment could be built.

A South-East chord at Shotton would surely be cheaper than redoubling the Saltney-Wrexham line?

Of course it would be cheaper, but its not going to happen, to leave the Wrexham/Saltney has it is now cancels out freight & any extra services,it is also
ATWs biggest pinch point in North Wales. £30 millions was ring fenced for the work, which is now at risk.

Also there is no way the national cycleway will be shifted at Shotton.

 

[jones_bangor]

So which two are IC standard, Gerald yes, the 175?.

I am sure many will be delighted about the Subsidy for the WAG Exs & Wagair,when the bus subsidy announced by WG will be cut by almost 30% & their lifeline (Sunday & Late evening services) are withdrawn from April.

Of course it would be cheaper, but its not going to happen, to leave the Wrexham/Saltney has it is now cancels out freight & any extra services,it is also
ATWs biggest pinch point in North Wales. £30 millions was ring fenced for the work, which is now at risk.

Also there is no way the national cycleway will be shifted at Shotton.

You're right about 175 - should have said shortly to be IC standard.

Ironic if some of these bus services will be those introduced as mitigation for Beeching cuts over 40 years ago.

Cycleways are relatively cheap to relocate - and that could easily be achieved at this site as there are flood bunds nearby running in parallel to the existing route, a case of putting the cyclepath on their crest.
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You'd be happy enough for the bi-hourly service from Cardiff to Holyhead to be replaced by more Manchester services (as long as the two "premium" services a day are retained)?

No - that's certainly not what I implied.

 

[Arglwydd Golau]

You're ignoring my point.

"Most North Wales - South Wales services are really Holyhead - Chester STOP Chester - Shrewsbury STOP Shrewsbury -Cardiff."

There are only 2 x genuine North - South Express services (IC standard).

Fully agree - on all my travels to Cardiff - apart from those on WAG 1 - I have always felt that I am sitting on two or three stoppers stitched together, lets face it, once they leave Holyhead it is - almost - 'all stations to Cardiff!'