North Wales Questions

[merlodlliw]

You're right about 175 - should have said shortly to be IC standard.

Ironic if some of these bus services will be those introduced as mitigation for Beeching cuts over 40 years ago.

Cycleways are relatively cheap to relocated - and that could easily be achieved at this site as there are flood bunds nearby running in parallel to the existing route, a case of putting the cyclepath on their crest.
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No - that's certainly not what I implied.

I don't think sustrans will have any of it, or the ramblers Assoc, cheap to relocate yes, but what passenger footfall would use it to get the funding.

And yes indeed The Wrexham to Barmouth Sunday service is at risk as is the Wrexham Whitchurch Sunday & late evening bus service within this County.
Conwy CC have already listed the three Sunday Llandudno/Ffestiniog rail replacement winter services at high risk from October.This service accepts valid rail tickets plus fare payers etc, I started a thread on this service at risk before WG announced 30% cuts in subsidy from April.I understand Conwy/ Gwynedd CCs pay for the service & get an extra refund for carrying rail passengers,this bus service calls at all Conwy Valley line rail stations.

Bob

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Ironic if some of these bus services will be those introduced as mitigation for Beeching cuts over 40 years ago.

A point that has been quoted on quite a few threads about other such services in other areas.

I await the campaign for the return of Crosville Motor Services and its rail replacement services from eons ago..:roll:

 

[merlodlliw]

A point that has been quoted on quite a few threads about other such services in other areas.

I await the campaign for the return of Crosville Motor Services and its rail replacement services from eons ago..:roll:

Now that was a Bus Company.

 

[pemma]

I await the campaign for the return of Crosville Motor Services and its rail replacement services from eons ago..:roll:

GHA and subsidiary Vale Travel seem to trying to establish themselves as the new Crossville, they've spread across in to Cheshire East and Altrincham over the last few years when previously they were only operating in North Wales and a few routes out of Chester - such as Chester to Northwich.

 

[Penmorfa]

Looks like a farm building and mostly empty field in which a curved embankment could be built.

A South-East chord at Shotton would surely be cheaper than redoubling the Saltney-Wrexham line?

No, a south to east curve i.e Wrexham to Chester would mean demolishing a lot of terraced housing
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Absolutely. I dob't think the land is particularly farmed, although there is a footpath / cycleway on some of the route.

You could also run Wrexham to Rhyl locals via the Borderlands.

That would be a west to south chord, refer to my previous post about 6 new points, resignalling, bridgeworks, etc and tell me how you would justify the cost?

 

[Michael.Y]

I work this route twice / three times a week, and I can say with some confidence that there ARE persons who use the whole route or at least a good proportion of it. Mostly it's either students heading to Bangor, or holidaymakers heading to Rhyl, or people taking advantage of a direct service to an Irish ferry terminal as opposed to having to change.

 

[Squaddie]

I use this route as little as possible - the trains are utterly vile - but there are occasions when I have to board an ATW train at Chester for the connection to Wrexham. And I would guess that at least half, and probably more, of the passengers coming from the north coast remain on the train at Chester. The idea that there is no demand for north-south services is absurd.

 

[jones_bangor]

No, a south to east curve i.e Wrexham to Chester would mean demolishing a lot of terraced housing
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That would be a west to south chord, refer to my previous post about 6 new points, resignalling, bridgeworks, etc and tell me how you would justify the cost?

If the Saltney - Wrexham work doesn't happen, then this could be looked at. Clearly this would require capital funding, and there are lots of issues that other posters have pointed out, such as low speed limits.

However, I would envisage it could be used by some peak North - South services, without compromising connectivity to Chester adversely e.g. passengers for Chester change at Rhyl, as well "new" local services that I suggested e.g. Wrexham - Rhyl.

I don't think sustrans will have any of it, or the ramblers Assoc, cheap to relocate yes, but what passenger footfall would use it to get the funding.

I'm afraid that to you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette! But in this case I really don't see my proposed relocation of the path as an issue at all, the flood bund to the north of the old chord would be an excellent replacement for the cycle path (similar to the length from Chester going along the Dee westwards on both sides of the river).

There are lots of Sustrans routes along former railways - do you suggest that these could never be returned to their original use if the need for reopening the line were there?

I use this route as little as possible - the trains are utterly vile - but there are occasions when I have to board an ATW train at Chester for the connection to Wrexham. And I would guess that at least half, and probably more, of the passengers coming from the north coast remain on the train at Chester. The idea that there is no demand for north-south services is absurd.

Most people know that, as does Welsh Government. It's just certain posters with an agenda that don't or can't.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Most people know that, as does Welsh Government. It's just certain posters with an agenda that don't or can't.

I don't deny there is some demand from north to south.
But I do think the "economic" demand to Cardiff is less than to English regions, and the Shotton idea is just a joke.
Until 1964 there was a Bangor-Birkenhead service bypassing Chester on the avoiding line - non-stop Rhyl to Hooton.
If there is not enough demand for that today then Shotton does not stand a chance.
The money would be better spent on the Runcorn link.

Example of today's travel patterns:
2 students at college in Nantwich live near Frodsham (travel by car).
One day a week they go on work experience near Llandudno Jn (travel by train).
Welcome business for ATW, but what business model are they following?
For sure, nothing to do with the agenda at Cardiff.

 

[jones_bangor]

Example of today's travel patterns:
2 students at college in Nantwich live near Frodsham (travel by car).
One day a week they go on work experience near Llandudno Jn (travel by train).
Welcome business for ATW, but what business model are they following?
For sure, nothing to do with the agenda at Cardiff.

I don't understand why your using this single example as some reason for not having / reducing North - South services.......I'm sure everyone's travel patterns are unique!

 

[Squaddie]

The pertinent point here - as some have already pointed out - is that most of the Holyhead - Cardiff trains stop at nearly every station and are used as local trains along their entire route. It is irrelevant whether anyone travels the entire length of the route, as the trains are well-loaded (and even overloaded) from start to finish.

There are only two limited-stop trains per day between the north and south - and one of those is not even of intercity standard. This is hardly excessive.

I accept the argument that there should be better connections between Wales and the large English cities near the border, but to blame the lack of such services on the provision of a couple of subsidised trains is just political point-scoring.


Sent from my laptop using my fingers.

 

[Gareth Marston]

The view from passengers from Gobowen (in England) who see half their trains head south at Shrewsbury and are forced into changing even though they want to go towards the West Midlands is somewhat different.

Agree that the stopping patterns are now ridiculous down the Marches - but that's caused by trying to do too many things. Speeded up Manchester to Cardiff trains, having to have cobbled togethar local services that go all the way from Holyhead to Cardiff at two hourly intervals are not a happy mix.

Having to have through trains to Holyhead and the Saltney bottleneck are one of the big reasons that the train onto the Shrewsbury to Chester line leaves Shrewsbury 1 minute before an arrival from the Cambrian meaning virtually no one connects between the two lines. When ATW introduced its SPT in Dec 05 the Holyheads use to wait at Salop and make the connection. A handful of North Wales people kicked off about extended journey times and the connection was lost. However the complainers were people you would only find on these trains Thursday or Friday evenings. Tough luck for the rest of us that want to travel at Weekends and the rest of the week - no connection.

 

[transmanche]

The view from passengers from Gobowen (in England) who see half their trains head south at Shrewsbury and are forced into changing even though they want to go towards the West Midlands is somewhat different.

Well I know for a fact that does not represent the views of all Gobowen passengers.

I'd say that there are far more grumbles at the poor connections to/from Manchester (especially at Chester, but also at Shrewsbury) - rather than the excellent connections to/from Birmingham at Shrewsbury

In any event, it's only a few years since Gobowen started to get regular hourly trains, isn't it? I'd say an hourly service which alternates between Birmingham and Cardiff (and has a good connection at Shrewsbury) is better than a two-hourly Birmingham service.

 

[jones_bangor]

Having to have through trains to Holyhead and the Saltney bottleneck are one of the big reasons that the train onto the Shrewsbury to Chester line leaves Shrewsbury 1 minute before an arrival from the Cambrian meaning virtually no one connects between the two lines. When ATW introduced its SPT in Dec 05 the Holyheads use to wait at Salop and make the connection. A handful of North Wales people kicked off about extended journey times and the connection was lost. However the complainers were people you would only find on these trains Thursday or Friday evenings. Tough luck for the rest of us that want to travel at Weekends and the rest of the week - no connection.

That does sound wrong, and a poor state of affairs. There seems to be a lot of missed connections due to just a few minutes lack of synchronicity across the ATW network.

 

[merlodlliw]

GHA and subsidiary Vale Travel seem to trying to establish themselves as the new Crossville, they've spread across in to Cheshire East and Altrincham over the last few years when previously they were only operating in North Wales and a few routes out of Chester - such as Chester to Northwich.

GHA were a small Company based in Corwen,then did a stagecoach & the main dept for North East Wales is in Johnstown Wrexham, they like Crosville have taken over a few Companies,they are very good, and have started a Rhyl to Wrexham, hourly service, but alas they run the Wrexham to Whitchurch Sunday & evening service as well,totally relent on WCBC funding which is to be cut by 30% by WG as are many evening & Sunday services GHA also run.
I hope they dont try & get to big too soon reliant on funding, the Sunday Wrexham/Barmouth service is paid from three County Councils it travels in,if one C C pulls the plug, no service.

 

[Penmorfa]

GHA were a small Company based in Corwen,then did a stagecoach & the main dept for North East Wales is in Johnstown Wrexham, they like Crosville have taken over a few Companies,they are very good, and have started a Rhyl to Wrexham, hourly service, but alas they run the Wrexham to Whitchurch Sunday & evening service as well,totally relent on WCBC funding which is to be cut by 30% by WG as are many evening & Sunday services GHA also run.
I hope they dont try & get to big too soon reliant on funding, the Sunday Wrexham/Barmouth service is paid from three County Councils it travels in,if one C C pulls the plug, no service.

They also ran a Prestatyn - Barmouth service on sundays and bank holidays last year, part of the Clwydian Ranger network, only £5 adult return.

 

[Gareth Marston]

That does sound wrong, and a poor state of affairs. There seems to be a lot of missed connections due to just a few minutes lack of synchronicity across the ATW network.

I know the lack of connections to London/Bristol at Severn Tunnel Jnc is a huge bugbear for folk from Chepstow- though this does involve FGW.

Apart from the first train in the morning from the Cambrian arr 0711 all the others arrive into Shrewsbury at xx25 one minute after the CDF- Holyhead 2 hourly stopper trains departs. The reverse direction is great usually its 11 minutes for a Cambrian train after a Holyhead-CDF 2 hrly stopper arrives but the 59 minute wait in the other direction is a great deterrent.

Manchester is also poor its around 35 minutes wait Northbound and around 50 minutes southbound to the Cambrian. If you look at what ATW's franchise team were saying pre Dec 03 and the blurb in the press when the franchise was announced we were suppose to be getting a Swiss style interconnecting timetable!!! When I've tackled ATW about it they say this was never a franchise commitment!

That's partly why I'm so negative about the Cardiff focus - even though its a journey i do regularly- I know demand for travel to Wrexham/Chester/Manchester/Crewe and other destination to the north is suppressed and is greater than that to Cardiff.

 

[jones_bangor]

I know the lack of connections to London/Bristol at Severn Tunnel Jnc is a huge bugbear for folk from Chepstow- though this does involve FGW.

Apart from the first train in the morning from the Cambrian arr 0711 all the others arrive into Shrewsbury at xx25 one minute after the CDF- Holyhead 2 hourly stopper trains departs. The reverse direction is great usually its 11 minutes for a Cambrian train after a Holyhead-CDF 2 hrly stopper arrives but the 59 minute wait in the other direction is a great deterrent.

Manchester is also poor its around 35 minutes wait Northbound and around 50 minutes southbound to the Cambrian. If you look at what ATW's franchise team were saying pre Dec 03 and the blurb in the press when the franchise was announced we were suppose to be getting a Swiss style interconnecting timetable!!! When I've tackled ATW about it they say this was never a franchise commitment!

That's partly why I'm so negative about the Cardiff focus - even though its a journey i do regularly- I know demand for travel to Wrexham/Chester/Manchester/Crewe and other destination to the north is suppressed and is greater than that to Cardiff.

Seems like a need for a wholescale review of the timetable, with the focus on inter-connectivity, is needed.

Although I support the WAG Express concept, I'm more than happy to accept the timings and directions are all wrong.

 

[merlodlliw]

Seems like a need for a wholescale review of the timetable, with the focus on inter-connectivity, is needed.

Although I support the WAG Express concept, I'm more than happy to accept the timings and directions are all wrong.

As the £3.5 millions has been spent on the WAG2(supposed) 67/DVT,so I accept it will happen,but if this train runs at the same timing as the 175 and its looks like it for the May timetable, I agree the timing is all wrong.
My main argument is,in my opinion no requirement for a Premier Class,all that is required is a buffet, even a buffet is unavailable elsewhere on any other ATW service.
The entire WAG Express timing concept was rushed using existing service paths for both trains, which simply means both become stoppers for part of the journey. WAG2 only runs to satisfy a pledge to go via Wrexham,at the cost of a well used Birmingham service, which is diverted to Crewe thus providing no extra service to fare paying passengers between Chester & Shrewsbury.
Time for rail experts to sort this timetable mess out,Politicians are just there for the ride. Timetabling ATW services into Shrewsbury one minute after connecting ATW services have departed borders on the ridiculous & is no better than ten years ago,when the excuse was its another toc, now its the same toc.

Bob

 

[jones_bangor]

From today's Western Mail:

"MORE than a million people in Wales are slipping into “transport poverty” and struggle to afford running cars or use public transport, a coalition of leading charities warned today.

Welsh Government under fire for cutting bus funding while subsidising North-South flights."

 

[Big Chris]

Chester is the logial hub for North Wales services, it provides too many useful links to be realistically skipped from any service

 

[merlodlliw]

From today's Western Mail:

"MORE than a million people in Wales are slipping into “transport poverty” and struggle to afford running cars or use public transport, a coalition of leading charities warned today.

Welsh Government under fire for cutting bus funding while subsidising North-South flights."

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...bsidising-north-south-flights-91466-30410758/

The maths don't add up for the Wag Expresses, Gerald got £2.2 millions last year & WAG2 got £625K. They have used figures for the first year of Gerald.





love the quote from above link.

the Welsh Government was preserving “follies” while cutting funding for vital transport. “To draw an analogy with the health service, it would be like hospitals funding boob jobs and buttock lifts and then saying they have to cut back on cancer treatment because they’re short of money.”

 

[Holly]

No, a south to east curve i.e Wrexham to Chester would mean demolishing a lot of terraced housing ...

More than one possible configurations exist.

A South-East chord could be built ENE of the railway-over-railway bridge.
Better than using the site where the housing is; using that configuration would permit trains using the chord to stop at Shotton (upper level).
It appears that some of the grounds of the (former?) Corus Shotton Sports and Social Club including, unfortunately, the main building would have to be taken and used.

Such a curve basically increases Chester-Wrexham capacity at the expense of some (little used) Dee Marsh-Wrexham paths and would thereby render the Saltney-Wrexham redoubling less needed.

 

[tbtc]

From today's Western Mail:

"MORE than a million people in Wales are slipping into “transport poverty” and struggle to afford running cars or use public transport, a coalition of leading charities warned today.

Welsh Government under fire for cutting bus funding while subsidising North-South flights."

"Transport Poverty" is one of those things that sounds big and important in a headline but is meaningless when people try to quantify it - how on earth do they define it?

Chester is the logial hub for North Wales services, it provides too many useful links to be realistically skipped from any service

Yup - ATW services need to stop at every hub (Chester, Shrewsbury, Hereford etc), given the number of connections

More than one possible configurations exist.

A South-East chord could be built ENE of the railway-over-railway bridge.
Better than using the site where the housing is; using that configuration would permit trains using the chord to stop at Shotton (upper level).
It appears that some of the grounds of the (former?) Corus Shotton Sports and Social Club including, unfortunately, the main building would have to be taken and used.

Such a curve basically increases Chester-Wrexham capacity at the expense of some (little used) Dee Marsh-Wrexham paths and would thereby render the Saltney-Wrexham redoubling less needed.

If you can run Wrexham - Chester that way, avoid the need to redouble the Saltney stretch and can stop at Shotton too then that sounds like a winner.

 

[transmanche]

Such a curve basically increases Chester-Wrexham capacity at the expense of some (little used) Dee Marsh-Wrexham paths and would thereby render the Saltney-Wrexham redoubling less needed.

Sounds interesting. Does anyone have an idea how much longer it would take to go this way rather than Wrexham-Chester direct?

 

[merlodlliw]

Sounds interesting. Does anyone have an idea how much longer it would take to go this way rather than Wrexham-Chester direct?

On a rough calculation, it would add 15 probably 20 mins to the run,present 20 minutes, so depart Chester noon arrive Wrexham 1235 or 1240.

I am lost on this idea, what's the problem with a dynamic loop between Saltney & Rossett, the Cambrian have dynamic loops.

Running via Shotton would almost double the time & add to the fuel bill. Plus where is the funding to come from, and to get it in the All Wales Transport plan is another matter.

 

[Gareth Marston]

On a rough calculation, it would add 15 probably 20 mins to the run,present 20 minutes, so depart Chester noon arrive Wrexham 1235 or 1240.

I am lost on this idea, what's the problem with a dynamic loop between Saltney & Rossett, the Cambrian have dynamic loops.

Running via Shotton would almost double the time & add to the fuel bill. Plus where is the funding to come from, and to get it in the All Wales Transport plan is another matter.

With Llangefni reopening costed at £25 million wheres the money coming from? Bulk of WG Capital spend for next decade is committed to A465 Head of Valleys Road and A477 in Pembrokeshire.

And whose going to cost it up? NR? It took a FOI request to find out that NR's plan to 3rd rail the Bidston line included 54 miles of unnecessary metal palisade fencing they decided the entire length of the line needed palisades though it runs through open countryside for much of the route- no wonder things don't go ahead.
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Sounds interesting. Does anyone have an idea how much longer it would take to go this way rather than Wrexham-Chester direct?

almost exactly same 30 mins from Shotton to Wrexham either way. Bidston line is 40mph max with several stops.
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Seems like a need for a wholescale review of the timetable, with the focus on inter-connectivity, is needed.

Although I support the WAG Express concept, I'm more than happy to accept the timings and directions are all wrong.

If you look at when they've done interconnecting on the continent they've done the infrastructure work made sure they've got the rolling stock and then planned it. Not promised it and then tried to do it badly with existing infrastructure/resources like ATW did.

 

[transmanche]

On a rough calculation, it would add 15 probably 20 mins to the run

almost exactly same 30 mins from Shotton to Wrexham either way. Bidston line is 40mph max with several stops.

Ah, suddenly less interesting.

So a Wrexham to Chester train would take up to 20 mins longer. And a direct Wrexham to NW Coast train would not save any time, but would miss out the main hub at Chester.

 

[jones_bangor]

Ah, suddenly less interesting.

So a Wrexham to Chester train would take up to 20 mins longer. And a direct Wrexham to NW Coast train would not save any time, but would miss out the main hub at Chester.

I think the linespeed between Saltney and Chester is 60mph at present.

Clearly the Wrexham - Shotton linespeed would have to improved as part of the link at Shotton.
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And whose going to cost it up? NR? It took a FOI request to find out that NR's plan to 3rd rail the Bidston line included 54 miles of unnecessary metal palisade fencing they decided the entire length of the line needed palisades though it runs through open countryside for much of the route- no wonder things don't go ahead.

I think palisade fencing would be required - the area is not really open countryside with lots of villages and towns along its length - 3rd DC rail technology is outdated and dangerous, with severe risks for children who'll climb over normal fences.

 

[Squaddie]

Talk of a new connecting chord at Shotton is blue-sky fantasy: there's no demand for it, no business case, no money and it's not going to happen.

All that is needed is a more convenient connecting service at Shotton, leading to a painless interchange. The current timetable cuts the connection very fine, and I'm sure many people get off the Bidston service only to see the Holyhead train pulling out of the other platform.