North West Electrification

[LNW-GW Joint]

Network Rail have "broken silence" and published a note on plans and progress.

http://www.networkrailmediacentre.co.uk/content/default.aspx?NewsAreaID=2&SearchCategoryID=5

Looks like Preston-Blackpool will open before Manchester-Preston.

Bridgework on the Chat Moss line to start this month.

Richard

 

[tbtc]

Looks like Preston-Blackpool will open before Manchester-Preston

Seems strange to me as there will be no EMUs which will be able to use the line west of Preston until the lines to/from Manchester/Liverpool are electrified. Still, good that they are starting it

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Manchester-Preston/Blackpool will be able to run under the wires via Parkside and Wigan while the Bolton route is being wired.

 

[tbtc]

Ah, so the Newton le Willows line is being done first? Makes sense then

(apologies, am at work, so didn't click on the document link)

 

[scrapy]

EMU's would be able to work on the Liverpool - St Helens - Wigan - Preston - Blackpool route though. There may also be some EMU's routed Manchester - Eccles - Wigan - Preston - Blackpool, as the line through the Farnworth tunnels will probably have to be closed for a lengthy period for electrificatiion.

 

[jonesy3001]

Wonder what EMU`s will work the routes when the OHL work is completed??

 

[gordonthemoron]

thameslink cascades?

 

[anthony263]

Wonder what EMU's will work the routes when the OHL work is completed??

The class 319's were to be cascaded from thameslink by new stock and would either go to FGW or up to Northern.

Speaking of the new thameslink stock any idea when the 1st new trainsis likely to appear in service?

 

[jonesy3001]

Are northern still getting the other 323`s from LM or is that on the back burner?
Also will TPE be getting EMU`s for the scotland services to free up 185`s for the yorkshire routes?

 

[Aictos]

The class 319's were to be cascaded from thameslink by new stock and would either go to FGW or up to Northern.

Speaking of the new thameslink stock any idea when the 1st new trainsis likely to appear in service?

If you've got this month's issue of Rail, it goes into a bit of detail about Network Rail's new ERTMS testing facility at Hertford North where the signalling tests will be performed on a 5 mile section of track leaving the other track for regular services to use.

Tied in with this, Network Rail has explained on a recent visit that a lot more drivers are to be based/working at Hertford North in connection with these tests meaning new staff accommodation is urgently needed as the existing accommodation isn't suitable.

It also says that a 313, believed to be 313123 is to be used as the test train during this period.

As to the new Greater Thameslink EMUs, I believe one will be tested on the Hertford Loop - when though I don't know but at a guess 2013 at the earliest.

 

[WatcherZero]

Thameslink order to be announced this year with first delivery approx 24 months later. So 2013/14 though with refurb required probably not significant numbers of cascades avaliable to enter service until 2015.

 

[tbtc]

The class 319's were to be cascaded from thameslink by new stock and would either go to FGW or up to Northern

There are more than enough 319s to run both the Thames Valley services and the Lancashire Triangle (based on current plans/ operating levels).

However the "Thameslink will have some spare 319s" + "newly electrified lines will need EMUs" = "319s go to Thames Valley/ Lancashire Triangle" equation isn't guaranteed. 319s could go elsewhere (with other older EMUs moving west/north instead)

 

[Aictos]

There are more than enough 319s to run both the Thames Valley services and the Lancashire Triangle (based on current plans/ operating levels).

However the "Thameslink will have some spare 319s" + "newly electrified lines will need EMUs" = "319s go to Thames Valley/ Lancashire Triangle" equation isn't guaranteed. 319s could go elsewhere (with other older EMUs moving west/north instead)

What interests me is if Southern take over the existing TL Inners (St Albans to Luton via Sutton services and run it as proposed between Blackfriars and Blackfriars via Sutton instead.

If this is the case then would we NOT see the NXEMUs on the loop as they wouldn't actually be part of the Thameslink route as such and so any rolling stock would to be Southern's responsibility and not whoever succeeds FCC.

This being the case, they might decide to keep a small fleet of 319s for the Suttons - after all the 375/6s operated by South Eastern have both AC and DC equipment and they're only used on 3rd rail routes.

As to the GN, I'm sure the basic understanding is for the 365s to stay or be replaced by 377s with the 321s and 317s moving elsewhere.

Now if 319s don't end up going to work the Lancashire Triangle, then it probably would be better if Northern or their successor asked for the 321s from FCC to bolster their own 321 fleet especially as brand new EMUs would be a rarity.

 

[WatcherZero]

How many would be needed for commuter services on the GWML, e.g. Oxford?

 

[bluenoxid]

Seems strange to me as there will be no EMUs which will be able to use the line west of Preston until the lines to/from Manchester/Liverpool are electrified. Still, good that they are starting it

*cough*

Fits in well with the governments West Coast Track Access bid for the new West Coast franchise with trains to Blackpool. Goodbye Voyagers, goodbye.

 

[Aictos]

*cough*

Fits in well with the governments West Coast Track Access bid for the new West Coast franchise with trains to Blackpool. Goodbye Voyagers, goodbye.

Exactly what I was thinking by the way,

 

[bluenoxid]

Exactly what I was thinking by the way,

Pfffftttt. That's what they all say

 

[Aictos]

Pfffftttt. That's what they all say

Not my fault, I saw the post then forgot to reply is it?

 

[tbtc]

*cough*

Fits in well with the governments West Coast Track Access bid for the new West Coast franchise with trains to Blackpool. Goodbye Voyagers, goodbye.

Fair enough, there might be a 390 or two between Preston and Blackpool each day. But the four trains an hour which currently run that route (extending to Manchester/ Liverpool/ York) are going to remain DMU until further electrification is set up.

 

[swt_passenger]

The DfT's application for the new franchisee to run extra trains to Blackpool etc was turned down last week, it was part of the same announcement that binned all the open access applications - I think we had a thread on it?

 

[WatcherZero]

We are talking about the existing Manchester-Blackpool service rather than a new Birmingham one.

 

[cle]

I don't understand - once Preston to Blackpool is wired, the other bits will be already done right? So the two Manchesters and the one Liverpool will go to EMUs.

As I understand it, the first step will only enable Scotland services to be EMU (via Wigan). Presumably this sets the scene for the Blackpool and Lake District DMUs to be diverted this way while the Chorley line is wired.

Would there be any pathing merit in having a circular Pendo service, similar to what GNER didn't quite do with Leeds? So:
Euston - XYZ - Stockport - Man Picc (platform 14) - Warrington BQ (via Chat Moss) - XYZ - Euston. And the oppostie, using P13.

 

[swt_passenger]

We are talking about the existing Manchester-Blackpool service rather than a new Birmingham one.

I was referring to the quote in tbtc's post, which does mention the DfT's bid.

 

[WatcherZero]

I don't understand - once Preston to Blackpool is wired, the other bits will be already done right? So the two Manchesters and the one Liverpool will go to EMUs.

As I understand it, the first step will only enable Scotland services to be EMU (via Wigan). Presumably this sets the scene for the Blackpool and Lake District DMUs to be diverted this way while the Chorley line is wired.

The Chat Moss is first then the Wigan bit to allow Liverpool trains would be the year after. They have said Scotland services would go through Wigan but last I heard the intention was lake district DMU services would still go via Bolton with asspiration they would be lengthened, I imagine Blackpool DMU wouldnt be diverted away from Bolton until Blackpool Electrification was done.

 

[cle]

So that would be the MAN - Scotland trains and the Liverpool - Wigan locals changed to EMUs? And the Liverpool - Warrington I guess.

If they did Preston - Blackpool next, it would enable both Liverpool - Blackpool and MAN - Blackpool services to go EMU, via Wigan.

How much can be done without blockages/line closures? If not, I'd expect Bolton to be out of action whilst Wigan does very well out of it!

 

[WatcherZero]

Wigan will do well with the Liverpool services now stopping (15-20 minutes off time to Manchester versus Atherton/Bolton lines) and Scotland services diversions which its highly likely will become permanent to relieve the Bolton line. The Blackpool EMU services would probably go through Bolton along with lake district services, In fact I dont imagine they would be diverted during the electrification work (overnight and long weekend closures probably) or in the one year gap after Blackpool is done but before Bolton is, they will probably just run DMU blackpool services under the wire that year.

 

[lancastrian]

I would be very supprised if the Scotish Trains weren't re-routed back through Bolton, when the line through it is finally electrified. My reasoning for this is that Wigan already has a Scottish service, taking away Bolton's Scotish service would not be a good idea as Bolton's population catchment area is much greater than that of Wigan. Thereby causing a lot of complaints.

 

[ukrob]

Would there be any pathing merit in having a circular Pendo service, similar to what GNER didn't quite do with Leeds? So:
Euston - XYZ - Stockport - Man Picc (platform 14) - Warrington BQ (via Chat Moss) - XYZ - Euston. And the oppostie, using P13.

Even if there was merit in it, the dwell times at 13 and 14 at Piccadilly would be unacceptable and cause delays.

So that would be the MAN - Scotland trains and the Liverpool - Wigan locals changed to EMUs? And the Liverpool - Warrington I guess.

The Liverpool - Warrington Bank Quay service will probably be gone before electrification, resulting in an extra Liverpool - Man Victoria service.

In addition to what you have listed, don't forget Liverpool - Man Victoria and Liverpool - Man Airport would be all electrified

 

[bluenoxid]

The DfT's application for the new franchisee to run extra trains to Blackpool etc was turned down last week, it was part of the same announcement that binned all the open access applications - I think we had a thread on it?

approved additional rights to extend some existing hourly Lancaster services onto Glasgow, but said it will not approve the additional 10 North West services until the further timetabling work has been completed.

So they are not rejected, just further work.

I don't understand - once Preston to Blackpool is wired, the other bits will be already done right? So the two Manchesters and the one Liverpool will go to EMUs.

As I understand it, the first step will only enable Scotland services to be EMU (via Wigan). Presumably this sets the scene for the Blackpool and Lake District DMUs to be diverted this way while the Chorley line is wired.

Would there be any pathing merit in having a circular Pendo service, similar to what GNER didn't quite do with Leeds? So:
Euston - XYZ - Stockport - Man Picc (platform 14) - Warrington BQ (via Chat Moss) - XYZ - Euston. And the oppostie, using P13.

No there will still be the direct route from Chorley Junc to Manchester to do. The main reason is probably that the main benefit of electrifying Liverpool to Manchester is the Blackpool service. It is quicker to do. So instead of leaving the wires unused, the Liv - Blackpool service can switch over quicker.

A circular would be very difficult particularly with P13/14 being so constricted as platforms.

 

[cslusarc]

I don't understand - once Preston to Blackpool is wired, the other bits will be already done right? So the two Manchesters and the one Liverpool will go to EMUs.

As I understand it, the first step will only enable Scotland services to be EMU (via Wigan). Presumably this sets the scene for the Blackpool and Lake District DMUs to be diverted this way while the Chorley line is wired.

Would there be any pathing merit in having a circular Pendo service, similar to what GNER didn't quite do with Leeds? So:
Euston - XYZ - Stockport - Man Picc (platform 14) - Warrington BQ (via Chat Moss) - XYZ - Euston. And the oppostie, using P13.

I think that routing InterCity services through Manchester Piccadilly is a good idea but I don't think the infrastructure is there to support additional through trains. The Manchester Hub Rail Strategy released in 2010 lays out groundwork for what needs to be achived to improve the rail network through Manchester. I doubt that any major schedule charge resulting from the Manchester Hub Rail Strategy would be able to be implemented before 2020. In order for additional through trains at Manchester Piccadilly two new through platforms need to be added and are identified as Platforms 15 & 16 but are currently planned to only be 200m and unsuitable for longer InterCity trains.