Northallerton Disruption

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142094

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Fatality at Northallerton, with the station closed and trains are unable to pass through. As ever, thoughts to the family and all staff concerned.

Not sure if it is happening yet but the diversionary route would be to Eaglescliffe and reverse, otherwise trains going southbound from Durham could use the Stillington Line (diesel only in both cases).
 
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tsr

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The lines were opened before 1401hrs and trains are now passing through, but the station is, understandably, still closed.

I'm sorry to hear of another incident of this nature at Northallerton.

I haven't been able to find details of which service was involved - not that it really matters unless you're either on board or staff involved. I have heard it was the 1000hrs departure from Edinburgh, although this is quite possibly wrong.

EDIT: It appears that a rail diversion route is not being (widely) used for passengers, with reports of buses and taxis being used instead.
 

PinzaC55

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Post privatisation diversions will be hard to to organise since I think it is unlikely EC guards will "sign" Stillington and no passenger guards from any company will sign the Longlands Loop.
 

142094

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Some EC drivers will sign the route, as they've used it in the past for planned engineering work. Whether the route knowledge is up to date is anyone guess.
 

GNERman

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Was at York today. Buses started at around 1430 for Northallerton.

Unfortunately, little EC staff about in the disruption period. Northern staff seemed to be helping the most on Platform 9. First train from York northbound was 1S14 at around 1400.
 

PinzaC55

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Some EC drivers will sign the route, as they've used it in the past for planned engineering work. Whether the route knowledge is up to date is anyone guess.
Route Knowledge is not "a guess". You sign for it and after 6 months it expires and you need a refresher.
 

ralphchadkirk

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Route Knowledge is not "a guess". You sign for it and after 6 months it expires and you need a refresher.
I think what he meant was that we, on here, can only guess at whether EC have maintained their drivers knowledge of that diversion or let it lapse after the planned engineering works.


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WelshZ

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Is it me or is there an increased number of fatality's compared with previous years, hardly a week goes by without a more than one fatality somewhere on the network.
 
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Fatality at Northallerton, with the station closed and trains are unable to pass through. As ever, thoughts to the family and all staff concerned.

Not sure if it is happening yet but the diversionary route would be to Eaglescliffe and reverse, otherwise trains going southbound from Durham could use the Stillington Line (diesel only in both cases).
Yes my Thoughts are of course are with the Family and also the Rail staff and the Driver of the train.

but i do have some thoughts on how York station seem to cope(well not cope) with getting coaches and the lack of Rail staff.

I was on the 10.57am from Manchester to Middlesbrough but we got as far as York and waited on Platform 11(think it was) with a load of other passengers not knowing what was going on and there was only 1 member of FTP staff who told us to wait where we were but the lack of information was shocking.

The staff which we did see seem to be in panic mode.

also the coaches was just a mess as 4 turned up and even the drivers of them didnt know where they were going and again the lack of rail staff yet again.

so in all after a 2 hour coach trip from york to middlesbrough we got there around 3 hours late.

im sorry to say but York need to really look at how they deal with things like what happened yesterday and i always though information to passengers was getting better but at york that is not the case.
 

wensley

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A little more detail...train involved was 1E82 Bournemouth - Newcastle, came to a stand north of the station after hitting someone on the down line. Station and running lines were closed to traffic. Running lines then re-opened, followed by the up platform. The down platform re-opened around 3hrs after the incident after the site was cleared.

Another sad incident :(

Regarding EC route knowledge, I know there has been a refresher running Newcastle - Newcastle, not via the main so not too sure on that score!
 

tbtc

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Is it me or is there an increased number of fatality's compared with previous years, hardly a week goes by without a more than one fatality somewhere on the network.
I don't know.

But I wonder whether the increased amount of information these days mean that we hear about any disruption a lot more.

I'd have known about yesterday's problems were there no internet (as my dad was delayed coming back from the Berwick Rangers game due to the knock-on delays), but I doubt many of us would have heard of it were it not for websites etc.

Just my opinion, I've not seen any stats to back if up. Sad news though.
 

Aictos

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How often are diversionary routes needed to be refreshed compared to main routes?

Is it still 6 months or longer?

I'm referring to services having to be diverted via Hertford, Cambridge, Lincoln etc...,
 

Crossover

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How often are diversionary routes needed to be refreshed compared to main routes?

Is it still 6 months or longer?

I'm referring to services having to be diverted via Hertford, Cambridge, Lincoln etc...,
I would imagine (not a member of staff but from things I have read elsewhere on here) that all routes have to be covered every 6 months, else a refresher is required. It is the reason late night services are "diverted" each night to keep the knowledge up to date
 

Aictos

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Bit embarrassing then when a train crew member's route knowledge runs out when it's needed in disruption, surely diversionary routes should be refreshed sooner then main routes?
 

tbtc

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Bit embarrassing then when a train crew member's route knowledge runs out when it's needed in disruption, surely diversionary routes should be refreshed sooner then main routes?
...but then given the large number of potential diversionary routes between London and Edinburgh (e.g. via Cambridge, via Lincoln, via Sunderland, via Carlisle), to ensure that 100% of staff had their refresher training up to date at all times would involve a lot of organising.

Given that East Coast driving staff were supposedly on something close to £50,000, and the problems getting some staff to fill (normal) Sunday duties, thats a lot of time and expense to ensure that "blue moon" events can be dealt with.

Ideally you'd have all staff trained at all times, but it wouldn't be easy (or cheap!)
 

142094

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They've been that way before when there was engineering work near Durham - quite a few pictures were up of HSTs going past Hartlepool (was within the last couple of years).

The diversionary routes between Newcastle and Northallerton (so Durham Coast, Stillington and via Allens West) are not used that often - in the past 3 years I've only heard of the Durham Coast and Stillington lines being used a couple of times for engineering work. I've never heard of East Coast using the line between Darlington and Eaglescliffe, although TPE drivers do sign this route (there is an early morning service between Darlington and Middlesbrough by TPE), and when Virgin had the CrossCountry franchise, they also went this way.
 

tbtc

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East Coast trains can't go via Sunderland except for HST's and I don't think they ever go that way.
They've been that way before when there was engineering work near Durham - quite a few pictures were up of HSTs going past Hartlepool (was within the last couple of years)
I was on one a couple of years ago, think it was in the NXEA days.

The difference between engineering works and a suicide (or, a fatality on the track, I don't mean to comment specifically on yesterday's sad events) is that you can plan for a month of engineering disruptions on consecutive Sundays. If someone is hit on the track then you may end up being diverted via a number of routes (e.g. York - Newcastle via reversal at Stockton to serve Darlington, York - Newcastle via Sunderland, York - Newcastle via the freight line that joins the ECML near Newton Aycliffe, can't remember the name).
 

142094

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The difference between engineering works and a suicide (or, a fatality on the track, I don't mean to comment specifically on yesterday's sad events) is that you can plan for a month of engineering disruptions on consecutive Sundays. If someone is hit on the track then you may end up being diverted via a number of routes (e.g. York - Newcastle via reversal at Stockton to serve Darlington, York - Newcastle via Sunderland, York - Newcastle via the freight line that joins the ECML near Newton Aycliffe, can't remember the name).
That'll be Stillington which runs between Stockton and joins the ECML at Ferryhill.

Even if Newcastle - Northallerton via Sunderland was the only one kept up to date, it would at least mean a service could run and miss that bit of the ECML, with Darlo and Durham passengers put on buses.
 

billio

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Is it me or is there an increased number of fatality's compared with previous years, hardly a week goes by without a more than one fatality somewhere on the network.
I heard that fatalities of this kind are running about 50% higher than last year.
 

142094

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That's the one, cheers.

I remember one period when the East Coast operator was going that way, few years back though
Think there was one last year, although it must have been right at the start of the year as I remember being on a service that used it but it was dark early, so couldn't tell where I was.
 

Failed Unit

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As many have pointed out only certain depots will know certain diversions, if for example only Newcastle know the via Hartlepool route you can bet when it hits the fan you will get the first train in the queue.

1. A class 91
2. A London based driver that doesn't need to know.

Then you can bet you life that the ones with the knowledge are in Edinburgh / London. You may only need 5 drivers to run a diversion route during engineer work, then swap back to the others either side of it. Back in BR they could drag regional / frieght drivers to pilot but alas......
 

142094

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Rostering will be a nightmare, but trying to remember which routes the drivers will sign.

As TPE sign from Darlington to Middlesbrough, I would have expected them to be able to get past rather easily, unless they don't sign the Northallerton low lines that avoid the station
 

Bevan Price

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Route Knowledge is not "a guess". You sign for it and after 6 months it expires and you need a refresher.
Why ? Would it not be sensible for route knowledge to expire only after there has been a change in track layout, signalling or speed limits ? Or at least extend the period to (say) 3 to 5 years ? I am not trying to be critical, but as most drivers are sensible, competent people, surely they will not "forget" an unchanged route after only 6 months.
 

142094

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Why ? Would it not be sensible for route knowledge to expire only after there has been a change in track layout, signalling or speed limits ? Or at least extend the period to (say) 3 to 5 years ? I am not trying to be critical, but as most drivers are sensible, competent people, surely they will not "forget" an unchanged route after only 6 months.
Think it might be more difficult trying to remember where signals are placed and speed limits are after a few years, especially if you don't go on that route very often.
 

PinzaC55

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Why ? Would it not be sensible for route knowledge to expire only after there has been a change in track layout, signalling or speed limits ? Or at least extend the period to (say) 3 to 5 years ? I am not trying to be critical, but as most drivers are sensible, competent people, surely they will not "forget" an unchanged route after only 6 months.
You have to remember that the railway rules have evolved since 1825 and every single one is there for a good reason, though it may not be immediately obvious.
I think Railtrack or one of the current TOC's tried to introduce the idea of drivers learning routes by watching a simulation or video - I have a feeling it failed, though I may be wrong.
 

Aictos

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...but then given the large number of potential diversionary routes between London and Edinburgh (e.g. via Cambridge, via Lincoln, via Sunderland, via Carlisle), to ensure that 100% of staff had their refresher training up to date at all times would involve a lot of organising.

Given that East Coast driving staff were supposedly on something close to £50,000, and the problems getting some staff to fill (normal) Sunday duties, thats a lot of time and expense to ensure that "blue moon" events can be dealt with.

Ideally you'd have all staff trained at all times, but it wouldn't be easy (or cheap!)
Yes but if their route knowledge between Stevenage and Kings Cross via Potters Bar was up to date then there's no reason why their route knowledge Stevenage and Kings Cross via Hertford North should be allowed to lapse though as it's the main diversionary route south of Peterborough as it allows direct access to Bounds Green without needing two reversals at Kings Cross and Bowes Park not to mention it offers a alternative route north/south if the usual route via Potters Bar is not available.

I know it's highly unlikely for any train crew member to sign every bit of track but if you read my comment above you will see where I am coming from.
 

ainsworth74

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One thought that has occurred to me is, if visibility is decent (so not thick fog) and it's daylight why could we not permit drivers to use short diversionary routes (such as the low lines that avoid Northallerton which are only a mile or so long) by driving on sight and slowly (say whatever it would take to stop up to a maximum speed of maybe 15mph). That would help keep traffic moving and would surely not be overly dangerous? Obviously something like this wouldn't work on a longer distance (for example you couldn't really drive the whole way from Darlington to Eaglescliffe to Northallerton at 15mph) but over short distances of a mile or so perhaps it could help keep trains moving?
 
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