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Northampton - Peterborough / Traction and Closure Discussion

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70014IronDuke

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Taken from this thread

I thought there is some important info in here that deserved a new thread for future researchers.

Indeed and much bigger again today. Whole load of missed opportunities with electrification to potentially grow the market from this part of Northants but that is for a totally different thread!

On a related note a first generation DMU service couldn't save the Northampton-Wellingborough-Peterborough Nene Valley route (too many level crossings in part) but it is one of those that retained through ticketing to key settlements on the replacement bus route, originally United Counties and now under Stagecoach as the X4.
 
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70014IronDuke

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Another factor which did not help the Northampton - Peterborough service was the timetable can only be described as "unhelpful". With typical journey times of around 85-90 minutes for 43¾ miles, the 1959 timetable was:
Northampton Castle dep. 06:42(SO); 07:13(SX); 09:32; 12:28; 16:20(SX)/16:24(SO); 17:10; 18:42(SO)
Peterborough East dep. 06:43; 07:35; 09:46; 12:30(SO)/12:40(SX); 15:50(SX)/16:00(SO); 18:00; 20:49(SO)
Plus a few short workings between Northampton & Wellingborough.
 

70014IronDuke

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I'm not sure that this line ever had DMUs running on it ? Right at the end there were Brush Type 2 diesels used, with ordinary coaching stock (the Northampton-Wellingborough Midland service was steam hauled to the end). The Rugby-Mkt Harborough-Peterborough line had some DMU working, Metro-Cammell units from the Eastern Region, and I believe the last ever westbound working was an LM unit (possibly Class 104?). Most trains were BR/Sulzer Type 2 with ordinary coaches, with the odd Brush Type 2.

Northampton and Peterborough were much smaller places then, with little reason to be travelling between them. Aside from Wellingborough, the intermediate stations were in very rural areas, and the main flows (Oundle-Peterborough and Northampton-Wellingborough-Irthlingborough) served by much more frequent and convenient motor bus services. Wellingborough stations are well out of the town. The rail replacement service (no. 409) ran two trips (roughly 6.50 am and 5.45pm from each end on Mon-Fri only), jointly operated by United Counties and Eastern Counties. The Peterborough-Thrapston section (also covered by Service no. 266/312) was withdrawn about 1971 and the remainder about 1976. The current X4 is a post de-regulation amalgam of parts of several routes, and the entirety of no. 265/313 Corby- Oundle-Peterborough. Between Wellingborough and Oundle it does not follow the line of rail, much of which now has no bus service at all. The X4 has a pretty impressive frequency though!
 

70014IronDuke

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Indeed and much bigger again today. Whole load of missed opportunities with electrification to potentially grow the market from this part of Northants but that is for a totally different thread!

On a related note a first generation DMU service couldn't save the Northampton-Wellingborough-Peterborough Nene Valley route (too many level crossings in part) but it is one of those that retained through ticketing to key settlements on the replacement bus route, originally United Counties and now under Stagecoach as the X4.

Merle Haggard
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DMU were never used on the Northampton Peterborough line, and diesel locos were used by March only in the summer due to the well-known boiler problems of Brush type 2s - otherwise, B1s or, for a short period, 76030-4, were 31B's choice; the Northampton workings were always steam, 2E having no diesels apart from D2907.
The only Northamptonshire branch to see dmu was Northampton-Bedford(-Hitchin); here, dmu briefly replaced the infamous 4 wheel railbuses but were themselves replaced by a final reversion to steam push-pull.
The Peterborough line, running on level countryside alongside the Nene did indeed have a number of level crossings but no attempt was made to replace them with AHBs - indeed, there was no attempt to achieve economies. I clearly remember travelling on the Summer SO Lowestoft train (though only as far as Peterborough) on the last day of the summer timetable (in, I think 1962) and this was the day that BR choose to carry out a passenger census. Unsurprisingly, as there was clearly no return service the next weekend, it was predictably the occasion when no-one was travelling beyond Peterborough for a holiday in the East.
The line followed the course of the river Nene, presumably to simplify construction, but the villages and towns along the route were on the high ground each side of the river valley, meaning that they were some distance from the stations. However, the line was launched by the London & Birmingham Railway not as a country branch-line but as part of a grand scheme to reach York.
I did use the replacement 409 bus service. It was certainly limited stop and I have the recollection (though I'm not certain) that it only stopped at the sites of the former stations, not in the towns and villages that the stations had claimed to serve.
On Youtube there's a DMU journey described as being 'Northampton-Peterborough' but it certainly isn't.
 

70014IronDuke

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I should think that any of the scarce capital expenditure available for AHBs would have been made on the more promising lines, rather than trying to turn a big loss into a slightly less big loss.
The only stations that the 409 bus did stop at were Barnwell and Thorpe (both tiny villages where the station was by the main road); the rest of the stops were indeed in the towns and villages the stations had claimed to serve. [Rather going against many a conspiracy theory!]
I had a look at that YouTube video, which is taken from an original 'Derby Lightweight' unit. It seems to be 'middle England' , that power station at the beginning, and the factory/chimney at the end, are quite distinctive! The closest line that these units were used on was Oxford-Bletchley-Cambridge, and the Buckingham branch.
Hopefully someone reading this might know!
 

Helvellyn

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I wasn't sure whether DMUs were used on the line or not when I made my point, more that it wasn't seemingly a candidate route to get first generation DMUs that could have saved it. Big chunks of East Northamptonshire remain relatively rural, which in a different world with better transport links might have seen more commuting. Whilst there are pros and cons to that it would have potentially helped bring more wealth into the area.
 

70014IronDuke

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If DMUs had been allocated to the line it would have enabled one huge additional operational advantage, viz the ability to reverse Northampton - Peterborough trains into/out of Wellingborough London Rd without creating a costly Templecombe-like operation. OK, it would have added about 15 mins to the through running times, but the added connectivity would surely have been worth it, at least for some trains.

As an aside - I was told some through Northampton - Leicester workings were introduced after Northampton - Market Harborough was closed to passengers. At least, presumably, for a year or two until the Nene VAlley itself was axed. Can anyone confirm this?
 

Merle Haggard

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If DMUs had been allocated to the line it would have enabled one huge additional operational advantage, viz the ability to reverse Northampton - Peterborough trains into/out of Wellingborough London Rd without creating a costly Templecombe-like operation. OK, it would have added about 15 mins to the through running times, but the added connectivity would surely have been worth it, at least for some trains.

As an aside - I was told some through Northampton - Leicester workings were introduced after Northampton - Market Harborough was closed to passengers. At least, presumably, for a year or two until the Nene VAlley itself was axed. Can anyone confirm this?

It was a bit more complicated than that. The GC wasn't the only route to connect London with Leicester & Nottingham through unpromising countryside - the LNWR tried it as well.
The route was Northampton-Market Harbro- Welham J (leaving the Peterboro' line) -Melton - Merehay J for Le'ster and Nottm L Rd LL.
The Northampton-Nottingham service ceased in 1953, but to replace it one train a day (one direction only) ran Northampton- Wellingbro' L Rd - Mid Rd-Kettering- Melton- Nottingham. There was an up Leicester-Northampton train (that direction only, too). Obvious stock balance problems, but the power for the Nottingham was often exotic (by Northampton standards).
Some of the Northampton - Wbro Mid Rd push-pulls were extended to Kettering. With 2 coaches and a BR Standard 2-6-2T those trains were fast!
 

Merle Haggard

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I wasn't sure whether DMUs were used on the line or not when I made my point, more that it wasn't seemingly a candidate route to get first generation DMUs that could have saved it. Big chunks of East Northamptonshire remain relatively rural, which in a different world with better transport links might have seen more commuting. Whilst there are pros and cons to that it would have potentially helped bring more wealth into the area.

Parts of Northamptonshire are wealthy areas with the 'landed gentry'; I remember a family named Spencer...


On the subject of the line's closure; I accept that rail is much more suited to trunk haul in volume; I spent most of my working life in trainload freight to confirm that.
What I don't understand is the random-ness of what survived. There are arguments that the line passed through unpromising territory but it (or the line from Rugby that joined at Yarwell J) did provide an East West link with connections to both the GN main line and East Anglia from the Midlands. The Northampton-Lowestoft train was introduced when the M&GN closed.
On another thread there's been discussion of the Oxford - Worcester line which would seem to have all the downsides of the Northamptonshire line (I think it was mentioned that Coombe station had less then 1 passenger per day - which makes Ringstead & Addington look a honey pot) but fewer connectional advantages. It has, obviously, survived.
It runs through Oxfordshire, and that's the difference. Compare the number of stations in that county with Northamptonshire; and then compare usage. It's interesting...
 

RT4038

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Parts of Northamptonshire are wealthy areas with the 'landed gentry'; I remember a family named Spencer...


On the subject of the line's closure; I accept that rail is much more suited to trunk haul in volume; I spent most of my working life in trainload freight to confirm that.
What I don't understand is the random-ness of what survived. There are arguments that the line passed through unpromising territory but it (or the line from Rugby that joined at Yarwell J) did provide an East West link with connections to both the GN main line and East Anglia from the Midlands. The Northampton-Lowestoft train was introduced when the M&GN closed.
On another thread there's been discussion of the Oxford - Worcester line which would seem to have all the downsides of the Northamptonshire line (I think it was mentioned that Coombe station had less then 1 passenger per day - which makes Ringstead & Addington look a honey pot) but fewer connectional advantages. It has, obviously, survived.
It runs through Oxfordshire, and that's the difference. Compare the number of stations in that county with Northamptonshire; and then compare usage. It's interesting...

I suspect the difference is not that it runs through Oxfordshire, but that it is a (albeit secondary) main line to London which is the no.1 traffic objective in this country. The Northampton-Peterborough line did not provide access to any of the major traffic objectives; it is true that it was an East West link, but not for the populations of the Midlands (the Rugby-Peterborough line [and when that closed the Birmingham-Leicester-Peterborough line] provided that). Its connection with the GN line was pretty inconvenient, with passengers having to transfer stations. Aside from holiday traffic, which was uneconomic and declining by the early 60s, the line was essentially a hopeless branch line which (in common with many others) had lost most of its traffic to road motors.
Of course the huge growth of Northampton and Peterborough, the establishment of Milton Keynes etc may make a bit of difference, but this would not necessarily be a honey pot - the Bedford-Bletchley line is a pretty hopeless loss maker and is having/has had some investment money of fairly heroic proportions to modernise level crossings and improve connectivity, and this over 50 years since Lord Beeching.

What survived is a bit random - perhaps the literacy and eloquence of the dons was heard over the boot and iron makers!
 

Merle Haggard

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I suspect the difference is not that it runs through Oxfordshire, but that it is a (albeit secondary) main line to London which is the no.1 traffic objective in this country. The Northampton-Peterborough line did not provide access to any of the major traffic objectives; it is true that it was an East West link, but not for the populations of the Midlands (the Rugby-Peterborough line [and when that closed the Birmingham-Leicester-Peterborough line] provided that). Its connection with the GN line was pretty inconvenient, with passengers having to transfer stations. Aside from holiday traffic, which was uneconomic and declining by the early 60s, the line was essentially a hopeless branch line which (in common with many others) had lost most of its traffic to road motors.
Of course the huge growth of Northampton and Peterborough, the establishment of Milton Keynes etc may make a bit of difference, but this would not necessarily be a honey pot - the Bedford-Bletchley line is a pretty hopeless loss maker and is having/has had some investment money of fairly heroic proportions to modernise level crossings and improve connectivity, and this over 50 years since Lord Beeching.

What survived is a bit random - perhaps the literacy and eloquence of the dons was heard over the boot and iron makers!


All fair points - East to West railways never do well (so far, let's see...)
Northamptonshire doesn't seem to be keen on public transport - the County Council declined to subsidise UCOC bus services in 1976 resulting in the withdrawal of everything but inter-town services.


On the subject of the random - ness of closures, Bedford Bletchley is a good example. The Oxford- Cambridge line was authorised for closure on condition that there were rail replacement bus services, and it was the delay by UCOC in obtaining licences that prevented the closure of the Bedford - Bletchley section. That delay carried the line into the 'we can't close any more lines' period. Its survival was not based on need, usefulness or potential, just incompetence.
 

RT4038

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All fair points - East to West railways never do well (so far, let's see...)
Northamptonshire doesn't seem to be keen on public transport - the County Council declined to subsidise UCOC bus services in 1976 resulting in the withdrawal of everything but inter-town services.


On the subject of the random - ness of closures, Bedford Bletchley is a good example. The Oxford- Cambridge line was authorised for closure on condition that there were rail replacement bus services, and it was the delay by UCOC in obtaining licences that prevented the closure of the Bedford - Bletchley section. That delay carried the line into the 'we can't close any more lines' period. Its survival was not based on need, usefulness or potential, just incompetence.

I think the subsidy cut was in 1978, and was a 50% reduction rather than complete removal. I don't think any place actually lost bus service, but obviously there were reductions in frequency and (probably worst of all) many inter-urban routes were diverted off the direct main roads via villages and/or covering sections of previously free standing town service. It took de-regulation to put much of that right! UCOC thought at the time that Northants wanted to encourage private operators to compete (on the basis that their costs were lower and therefore wouldn't require subsidy) and they didn't want to leave any gaps that could be exploited within the licensing regime at the time. Understandable then, but not so good for the longer term. In fact the reverse happened, with the long established York Bros. service from Bozeat/Wollaston to Northampton via Cogenhoe being passed to UCOC, because they weren't making any money on it!

At least twice (possibly three times) UCOC applied for licences to replace the Bedford-Bletchley line and were refused because of the plague of cancellations due to staff shortages in the district at that time. This was exacerbated by the large movement of Bedford bound schoolchildren at peak times, and the awkward routeing to follow the line of rail, which required a large number of extra buses at peak times. The combination of fares controlled by the Traffic Commissioner and nationally agreed pay rates meant that the obvious route of increasing busmens' pay in the area to attract more staff was simply not available at that time. Changing any of that would have had country-wide implications, so was not going to happen.
I think it a little unfair to ascribe the survival of the line to 'incompetence'; it is not clear what else could be done - more like 'circumstance'.
 
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Merle Haggard

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I think the subsidy cut was in 1978, and was a 50% reduction rather than complete removal. I don't think any place actually lost bus service, but obviously there were reductions in frequency and (probably worst of all) many inter-urban routes were diverted off the direct main roads via villages and/or covering sections of previously free standing town service. It took de-regulation to put much of that right! UCOC thought at the time that Northants wanted to encourage private operators to compete (on the basis that their costs were lower and therefore wouldn't require subsidy) and they didn't want to leave any gaps that could be exploited within the licensing regime at the time. Understandable then, but not so good for the longer term. In fact the reverse happened, with the long established York Bros. service from Bozeat/Wollaston to Northampton via Cogenhoe being passed to UCOC, because they weren't making any money on it!

At least twice (possibly three times) UCOC applied for licences to replace the Bedford-Bletchley line and were refused because of the plague of cancellations due to staff shortages in the district at that time. This was exacerbated by the large movement of Bedford bound schoolchildren at peak times, and the awkward routeing to follow the line of rail, which required a large number of extra buses at peak times. The combination of fares controlled by the Traffic Commissioner and nationally agreed pay rates meant that the obvious route of increasing busmens' pay in the area to attract more staff was simply not available at that time. Changing any of that would have had country-wide implications, so was not going to happen.
I think it a little unfair to ascribe the survival of the line to 'incompetence'; it is not clear what else could be done - more like 'circumstance'.

It was indeed 1978; relying on memory but it was 40 odd years ago...
Referring to the appropriate booklet in the Roger Warwick An illustrated History of United Counties series he writes 'In the summer of 1977 the County Council revealed that it was to phase out revenue support for bus services in its entirety over a period of three years, starting in April 1978. In its first phase the County planned to reduce its level of revenue support payable to UCOC from £510,000 to £270,000.

You are quite right to say that the reduction was about half but complete removal was intended. I can't remember if the further cuts were actually made because I bought a car and bus services no longer had an importance to me.

It seemed to me that the Council thought that small entrepreneurs would provide replacement services without subsidy (in denial of the reality of Road Service Licencing legislation) and the bus company produced a plan that still provided a bus service to almost every town and village (with the purpose of making it difficult for a new operator tom prove 'need'). While this cerebral game of chess was going on, the bus user suffered.

I have a strong recollection (my memory again!) that the post cuts service was:
Sunday service was restricted to the busiest services, and to between about mid-day and tea-time; services which reasonably loaded were withdrawn. I think that this was not because the revenue was poor, but the extra staff costs associated with Sundays were the problem.
Saturday services wound down from the late afternoon, shortening days out. Possibly to encompass a larger number of single shifts with spreadover.
Weekday services wound down after about 17.30.
If you had a Monday to Friday job but didn't get home 'til about 18.30, like me, then bus travel became useless Monday-Friday and Sunday, and of reduced use on Saturday. Not wishing to be confined except for a daytime Saturday opportunity I gave up some of my loyalty to public transport, and bought a car. From conversations overheard on buses on the last weeks before the cuts, a great number of bus passengers either did that or, if they were less well off, bought a moped.

It might be of interest to add that Roger also gives the following statistics; support for bus services in Wellingborough, 1978/9 - £16,000, subsidy for car parks (District Council responsibility) - £267,190.

On the subject of the Bedford Bletchley rail replacement; UC were offered new business with the BRB underwriting any losses. Many businesses would jump at that!. I accept that pay & conditions presented a problem to bus companies but UCOC is not a good example. In 1970 (slightly later, I accept) UCOC had a large number of staff absorbed from the following operators partly or wholly taken over; Eastern National, Birch Bros, Luton Corporation. These staff all had different conditions from staff who started with UC. Of course, you can argue either way - that the Company was competent in handling the issues that this created, or incompetent in not sorting them out!

I live on the X47 route between Northampton and Wellingborough. Leaving Northampton it deviates considerably from the direct route to serve a college and estates, and similarly diverts approaching Wellingborough. I'm not sure why it has an X prefix. So that hasn't changed with privatisation. I have just walked to the nearest bus stop to find out journey times to quote but, oddly, the customised display gives departure times (you can even get to Peterborough occasionally) but gives no indication of journey times.

Edited for typo
 

RT4038

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It was indeed 1978; relying on memory but it was 40 odd years ago...
Referring to the appropriate booklet in the Roger Warwick An illustrated History of United Counties series he writes 'In the summer of 1977 the County Council revealed that it was to phase out revenue support for bus services in its entirety over a period of three years, starting in April 1978. In its first phase the County planned to reduce its level of revenue support payable to UCOC from £510,000 to £270,000.

You are quite right to say that the reduction was about half but complete removal was intended. I can't remember if the further cuts were actually made because I bought a car and bus services no longer had an importance to me.

It seemed to me that the Council thought that small entrepreneurs would provide replacement services without subsidy (in denial of the reality of Road Service Licencing legislation) and the bus company produced a plan that still provided a bus service to almost every town and village (with the purpose of making it difficult for a new operator tom prove 'need'). While this cerebral game of chess was going on, the bus user suffered.

I have a strong recollection (my memory again!) that the post cuts service was:
Sunday service was restricted to the busiest services, and to between about mid-day and tea-time; services which reasonably loaded were withdrawn. I think that this was not because the revenue was poor, but the extra staff costs associated with Sundays were the problem.
Saturday services wound down from the late afternoon, shortening days out. Possibly to encompass a larger number of single shifts with spreadover.
Weekday services wound down after about 17.30.
If you had a Monday to Friday job but didn't get home 'til about 18.30, like me, then bus travel became useless Monday-Friday and Sunday, and of reduced use on Saturday. Not wishing to be confined except for a daytime Saturday opportunity I gave up some of my loyalty to public transport, and bought a car. From conversations overheard on buses on the last weeks before the cuts, a great number of bus passengers either did that or, if they were less well off, bought a moped.

It might be of interest to add that Roger also gives the following statistics; support for bus services in Wellingborough, 1978/9 - £16,000, subsidy for car parks (District Council responsibility) - £267,190.

On the subject of the Bedford Bletchley rail replacement; UC were offered new business with the BRB underwriting any losses. Many businesses would jump at that!. I accept that pay & conditions presented a problem to bus companies but UCOC is not a good example. In 1970 (slightly later, I accept) UCOC had a large number of staff absorbed from the following operators partly or wholly taken over; Eastern National, Birch Bros, Luton Corporation. These staff all had different conditions from staff who started with UC. Of course, you can argue either way - that the Company was competent in handling the issues that this created, or incompetent in not sorting them out!

I live on the X47 route between Northampton and Wellingborough. Leaving Northampton it deviates considerably from the direct route to serve a college and estates, and similarly diverts approaching Wellingborough. I'm not sure why it has an X prefix. So that hasn't changed with privatisation. I have just walked to the nearest bus stop to find out journey times to quote but, oddly, the customised display gives departure times (you can even get to Peterborough occasionally) but gives no indication of journey times.

Edited for typo

Northamptonshire (and several other shire counties) felt that their NBC operator had too high costs, that the subsidy claims were too opaque, and that smaller operators could provide the services more cheaply. No doubt aided by a local operator(s) lobby with local councillors, whereas the bus company management would traditionally have eschewed such tactics. Annual fares increases (applied for via the Traffic Commissioners and for which the CC would be a statutory objector), industrial disputes and unreliable services caused by staff and vehicle shortages in an earlier period, would not have helped. When a deregulated 'trial area' was to be set up under the 1980 Transport Act, Northamptonshire volunteered, although actually Hereford was the lucky recipient.
The planned phase out of bus subsidies did not actually happen at that time, only being achieved fairly recently following fiscal meltdown at the CC.

The reduction of services that you mention was an ongoing process by virtually all operators - buses had been losing passengers since about 1954, with off peak, evening and Sunday services reducing more sharply than in the peak (many car owners in those days still went to work by bus). Evening and Sunday services were being reduced from the time of the Suez crisis, largely due to television and increasing car ownership. The deep rural services lost theirs first, and by 1978 only the urban and inter-urban services had any at all - frankly even those were often poorly patronised. Rural communities were changing - no more were they mainly populated with those engaged in agriculture; by 1978 it was commuters with several cars and little requirement for anything other than a school bus. Life had moved on from travel requirements being fulfilled by a bus every couple of hours (including evenings and Sundays) to the nearest market town; increasing car ownership was encouraging out of town business, retail and leisure activities which were never going to be economically accessible by direct public transport from far and wide. Running near empty evening and Sunday services did nothing to aid staff retention (see below) and were increasingly difficult to justify.

UCOC did not turn down the rail replacement business - the Traffic Commissioners refused to licence the service applied for by UCOC because they believed that this extra work would have a negative effect on the reliability of the other services already operated. The 1968 Transport Act ceased the practice of the BRB paying any shortfall on rail replacement services, so there was no underwriting. Rail replacement services were seldom good business for bus companies - they often competed against sections of existing services, and the railway trains that were being withdrawn often did not carry sufficient passengers for even a bus service to be economic [It was by no means certain that they would all transfer anyway]. Aside from the issue of staff shortages, there was also a major problem of a shortage of suitable vehicles. The economics of rail replacement services would require them to be one-man-operated from the outset. Bus companies were desperately trying to convert their existing services to one-man-buses, and a serious constraint was the shortage of vehicles suitable for such operation, caused partly by the inability of the UK manufacturing industry to produce in sufficient quantity and partly by the shortage of capital in the bus companies to purchase even if they were available. You can understand why UCOC may not have welcomed with open arms a sudden large increase in vehicle requirement for uneconomic services, which would push back plans for cost savings on their existing services.

I would contend that UCOC is a very good example of the staff shortage problem of bus companies at the time. UCOC acquired/was allocated the Midland Division of Eastern National in 1952 and along with it came a considerable cadre of staff, and an equally considerable amount of work for them. The terms and conditions of the staff had some differences, but not the general level of pay, and this had been largely assimilated by the period in question. When the 'Birch' was taken over in 1969 their staff were offered jobs on UCOC terms and conditions (there was no TUPE then). Birch were short of drivers and particularly engineering staff. In 1973 a major change (and reduction) to the ex-Birch service had to made to the severe shortage of staff at the time. The staffing position at Luton Corporation Transport was terrible when UCOC took them over, not that it was any better at the Luton depot of UCOC. None of these acquisitions made any material difference to the basic problem that busmans wages, and working conditions, (including the evening and Sunday services that you so regret having been reduced) just did not compete with conditions that could easily be obtained in Manufacturing at the time. For the reasons explained in a previous post, these wages and conditions could not be materially improved upon, and particularly in Luton and Bedford (and in Bletchley/Stony Stratford, Aylesbury etc) there was a severe staff shortage resulting in a plague of cancellations, both planned and unplanned). This did not just affect UCOC, also Thames Valley, Aldershot & District, London Country Bus Services, Bristol Omnibus, Midland Red, Eastern Counties (Cambridge) - in fact anywhere with large scale manufacturing industries.

I am still not sure that 'incompetence' comes into the equation at all - unless you know of a course of action that could be taken that wasn't, bearing in mind the constraints of the era.

I don't think it possible for every service to go direct from each passengers' stop to their destnation - Northampton and Wellingborough have a direct service (X4) which takes roads that were not available in 1970. The X47 (covering part of the 402-4 service and I think a bit of 401?) has now become more secondary in nature and therefore meanders a bit to cover other areas.
 

MP33

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I read the comment about staff shortages in 1970's in the Bus Industry due to better offers being available elsewhere. In the TV series On the Buses made in the early 1970's. When Reg Varney had to leave shortly before the end due to ill health. The reason for his character being written out was he had got a better job in a Car factory.

Is the line being discussed the one that closed for freight as late as the 1980's and had a restriction on rolling stock due to a long and narrow tunnel?
 

RT4038

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I read the comment about staff shortages in 1970's in the Bus Industry due to better offers being available elsewhere. In the TV series On the Buses made in the early 1970's. When Reg Varney had to leave shortly before the end due to ill health. The reason for his character being written out was he had got a better job in a Car factory.

Is the line being discussed the one that closed for freight as late as the 1980's and had a restriction on rolling stock due to a long and narrow tunnel?

The extent of the staff shortages are quite difficult to comprehend now, as wage rates can be made quite specific to area, and fares adjusted accordingly.

No, the line being discussed was closed completely in 1964. The line you are referring to is that from Northampton to Market Harborough, which closed to passenger trains in 1960, but freight service continued until (I think) about 1982, and was closed in that package of closures which included the March-Spalding line, the Clayton West branch and would have been the Settle-Carlisle line if there had not been such as furore. Although passenger service had been withdrawn in 1960, the night sleeping car train from Glasgow via the Midland route was diverted (from the early 70s?) via this line to Euston, so facilities for handling sleeping cars at St.Pancras/Cricklewood could be eliminated. For quite some years the line had only been open for the night shift (2200-0600, except Sat night) as it had numerous level crossings. The main traffic was coal trains from Nottinghamshire coalfield, which was falling away quickly by that time.
There were two tunnels, both parallel single bores, at Kelmarsh and Oxendon which had limited clearance (probably requiring bars on the droplights, but this was not worried about on the night train stock). The tunnels are straight and I don't think there was any restriction as such. Both tunnels 'up' bore can be walked or cycled on the 'Brampton Valley Way', and part of the trackbed has been relaid by the Northampton & Lamport railway.
 

Merle Haggard

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Is the line being discussed the one that closed for freight as late as the 1980's and had a restriction on rolling stock due to a long and narrow tunnel?

It closed to passengers in 1964. There was still some through freight from Northampton to Wellingborough until about late '65 (I could just see these trains from school, if on the 2nd floor of the Physics block) but trains to serve intermediate p.s. continued. I think the last was to Nassington ironstone quarry and a society (??? LCGB) organised a 'last day' celebration - this was about 1970-71 and I remember climbing into a 27t tippler (no side doors) for a ride.

The Nene Valley Railway operates on that part of the route, from Yarwell J to Peterborough, that was shared with the Rugby- Peterborough service. The original formation was double track, but singled when the line became freight only. To the west of Wansford station there is a tunnel, which was the (the only one on the Northampton-Peterborough route), and this is currently single track repositioned in the centre. However, this was done because the early iteration of the NVR was to run trains from mainland Europe and it was done to achieve clearance for this stock. As an aside, platforms were also cut back, with the result that the BR Standard coaches now used have very wide footboards.
 

70014IronDuke

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It was a bit more complicated than that. The GC wasn't the only route to connect London with Leicester & Nottingham through unpromising countryside - the LNWR tried it as well.
The route was Northampton-Market Harbro- Welham J (leaving the Peterboro' line) -Melton - Merehay J for Le'ster and Nottm L Rd LL.
The Northampton-Nottingham service ceased in 1953, but to replace it one train a day (one direction only) ran Northampton- Wellingbro' L Rd - Mid Rd-Kettering- Melton- Nottingham. There was an up Leicester-Northampton train (that direction only, too). Obvious stock balance problems, but the power for the Nottingham was often exotic (by Northampton standards).

Would this train have been an evening working out of Northampton, maybe around 17.30? I saw a Jubilee one summer evening at Irthlingborough at around 18.00 - Ajax - with about three coaches heading torwads Wellingborough MR across the Nene bridge.

EDIT - I think this was 1961. I've got in noted in a diary somewhere.
 

Merle Haggard

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Would this train have been an evening working out of Northampton, maybe around 17.30? I saw a Jubilee one summer evening at Irthlingborough at around 18.00 - Ajax - with about three coaches heading torwads Wellingborough MR across the Nene bridge.

EDIT - I think this was 1961. I've got in noted in a diary somewhere.

No, checking with my trusty '62 public TT the Nottingham was 1.50 p.m. from Northampton. The train you saw must have been the 6.00 p.m. SX from Northampton, shown as terminating at Wellingborough and which was additional to the push-pull set diagram. It would be interesting to see a Carriage Working book; there is no likely forward working for it from Wellingborough, and nothing balances! There's a 5.20 p.m. L'ster-Npton, which doesn't arrive until 6.58, and another at 8.45 p.m. (which is more likely to be the return of the Nottingham - there are several Nottingham-L'ster all stations that 'fit' the missing leg). I'll dig out some older books to see what existed before the Joint line closed - I may be barking up the wrong tree about the Nottingham being a replacement when that happened.
 

RT4038

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Would this train have been an evening working out of Northampton, maybe around 17.30? I saw a Jubilee one summer evening at Irthlingborough at around 18.00 - Ajax - with about three coaches heading torwads Wellingborough MR across the Nene bridge.

EDIT - I think this was 1961. I've got in noted in a diary somewhere.

Isn't Irthlingborough to the east of Wellingborough on the Peterborough line? A Leicester-Wellingborough-Northampton train wouldn't pass through there?
 

Merle Haggard

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Isn't Irthlingborough to the east of Wellingborough on the Peterborough line? A Leicester-Wellingborough-Northampton train wouldn't pass through there?

I took it to be a slip for Irchester ('Little' Irchester was the opposite side of the A45 to Wellingboro' London Road station)
 

70014IronDuke

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Isn't Irthlingborough to the east of Wellingborough on the Peterborough line? A Leicester-Wellingborough-Northampton train wouldn't pass through there?

Apologies, it was a long time ago, and I got mixed up.

I saw the Jubilee as it crossed the bridge over the Nene between Wellingboro' London Rd and Midland Rd.

London Rd was, of course, the station in Little Irchester. The Nene there had, as I remember, a tarmac quay - possibly for loading/unloading grain? ISTR there was a large concrete granary or mill there, but the quay - if it was one - just seemed to be public space at the time.

I was not really there for the trains, and didn't think I'd see anything of interest above, when Ajax steamed through. It was summery evening, and the sun was glinting off the loco and carriages. Yes, I know our memories tend to convert everything to summer days, but that really does feel true!

Going back to being more generally on topic, there was an ironstone mine near Little Irchester, and the loco shed was nearby the main road. This meant BR kept the connection to Wellinboro Midland Rd for some years after the passenger service closed. I photographed the mine line several times in 68-69. They had about 6-7 locomotives there, although not all were in use. I think they used Barclays as their main locos. They had to work very hard climbing the bank past the loco shed - fortunately that was with empty wagons returning to the workings.
But I think it was closed in 69 or 70. I went back there in the autumn of 1970 I think it was, and the place was desolate. I presume the link line from there to Wellingborough MR was lifted in 1970 or so as a result.
 

Helvellyn

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One of the things that won't have helped the line would have been the closure of the Irthlingborough Ironstone Mine in late 1965, which was rail connected, with a few sidings on the site as well.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sid...2.31767&lon=-0.61884&layers=193&right=BingHyb


You also had the British Leyland foundry at Wellingborough (closed 1981), but that was connected by rail only to the Midland Main Line and not the Northampton-Peterborough route.

https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/sid...2.29825&lon=-0.66836&layers=193&right=BingHyb


Apologies, it was a long time ago, and I got mixed up.

I saw the Jubilee as it crossed the bridge over the Nene between Wellingboro' London Rd and Midland Rd.

London Rd was, of course, the station in Little Irchester. The Nene there had, as I remember, a tarmac quay - possibly for loading/unloading grain? ISTR there was a large concrete granary or mill there, but the quay - if it was one - just seemed to be public space at the time.

I was not really there for the trains, and didn't think I'd see anything of interest above, when Ajax steamed through. It was summery evening, and the sun was glinting off the loco and carriages. Yes, I know our memories tend to convert everything to summer days, but that really does feel true!

Going back to being more generally on topic, there was an ironstone mine near Little Irchester, and the loco shed was nearby the main road. This meant BR kept the connection to Wellinboro Midland Rd for some years after the passenger service closed. I photographed the mine line several times in 68-69. They had about 6-7 locomotives there, although not all were in use. I think they used Barclays as their main locos. They had to work very hard climbing the bank past the loco shed - fortunately that was with empty wagons returning to the workings.
But I think it was closed in 69 or 70. I went back there in the autumn of 1970 I think it was, and the place was desolate. I presume the link line from there to Wellingborough MR was lifted in 1970 or so as a result.
The Mill is still there, run by Whitworth, but the site seems to be known as Victoria Mills. I hadn't realised that the site of Wellingborough London Road is now pretty much buried beneath the A45 where it crosses over London Road.
 
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