Northern £20 Penalty Fare - A Lesson Learned :-)

[RPI]

This sounds very similar to the set up at Topsham, level crossing barriers, 2 platforms, TVM only on one side? We have always been told not to PF in the Exmouth direction as it could end up getting people to potentially jump over level crossing barriers etc in order to buy a ticket. I'd certainly appeal against the notice, it sounds as though the person issuing the notice hasnt really issued it incorrectly but it sounds a prime example of what the appeals service is there for.

 

[Bertie the bus]

If there definitely isn’t a ticket machine on the Blackburn platform I would certainly appeal it. If the barriers are closed the only way across the line is about a 3/4 mile walk via the foot crossing and the service is only hourly at the best of times. Although the OP doesn’t state which train they went for with the Covid timetable it is 2-hourly for much of the day and it really isn’t reasonable to expect someone trapped on the wrong side to wait for the next train so they can buy a ticket.

 

[scrapy]

Yes I'd certainly appeal it, and take it to independent arbitration if appeal is unsuccessful. On the grounds that whilst ticket buying facilities might have been available, they simply weren't accessible to you and you were blocked from using them.

Whilst I disagree with Bletchleyites comment that a ticket machine must be provided on both platforms in all cases, as there are lots of different layouts I do think that a ticket machine must be accessible to all passengers at all times. The layout at Bamber Bridge does not allow this. If a footbridge/subway was provided then provided the OP was able to use it then things would be different.

 

[HSP 2]

The one thing that I'm getting a bit wound up about is why the guard / conductor did not sell the OP a ticket when ask for one. Yes they may have been doing the doors, but not to then sell them a ticket??

 

[Bletchleyite]

Whilst I disagree with Bletchleyites comment that a ticket machine must be provided on both platforms in all cases, as there are lots of different layouts I do think that a ticket machine must be accessible to all passengers at all times. The layout at Bamber Bridge does not allow this. If a footbridge/subway was provided then provided the OP was able to use it then things would be different.

I did sort of think about that later and I would probably revise it to - each independent entrance to a station should have one accessible at all times. That is, if you can't get to the other one without leaving the station premises there needs to be one accessible to that point. That would mean any station where the pedestrian crossing is via a level crossing would need one on each side, whereas if there was a footbridge as well one in total would be acceptable (but would mean no PF for anyone who had a disability precluding the use of the footbridge). One would probably also be acceptable at a station where you enter from a road bridge but there is no constraint - the likes of Aughton Park or Peartree - provided clear signage at the other entrance showed where it was.

Additionally, if it would be possible to enter a station and board a train without seeing where the TVM(s) is/are located in clear plain sight, all such entrances where you can't should be required to have clear signage showing where it is, and which pedestrian route, entirely within the station, can be taken to reach it.

But certainly any station where the only access between platforms is via a level crossing, or where it is a considerable walk, does need one on each side, or for the use of the TVM not to be mandatory.

 

[Rhinojerry]

There was a subway at Bamber Bridge, it was filled in some years ago.

You have to make an allowance for extra time if using ticket machine on Preston bound platform. I have been caught out before.

 

[Karl]

Thanks for all the advice folks. I paid the £20 as soon as I got home. I've written it off and will make sure for my future journeys I'll arrive 10 minutes before departure.

Frustratingly I forgot I had a Northern free ticket in my wallet!

 

[class17]

Thanks for all the advice folks. I paid the £20 as soon as I got home. I've written it off and will make sure for my future journeys I'll arrive 10 minutes before departure.

Frustratingly I forgot I had a Northern free ticket in my wallet!

Options for the OP for the 2nd Jab.
1. Arrive 10 mins before departure as the OP suggested.
2. Buy the ticket in advance, time wise if not date wise with a trip down to the station earlier in the day.
3. Catch the bus, it takes you direct to the vaccination centre, no need to walk across town or potentially wait a long time to get back home.
4. Walk it. Its 3 miles, one hour each way. Part of the OP's daily exercise.

Good luck with the appeal. I presume you are going to appeal as you have thanked everyone for their advice, and their advice is appeal.

 

[robbeech]

If you're happy that the matter is dealt with then that is what is important here. However, if you've paid it before reading some of the advice here and are regretting your choice then you can still appeal. Paying a penalty fare is NOT an admission of guilt, it does put you in a better position as it removes any time limits from your side of the appeal process, but not theirs.

Initial check, it has been mentioned, but i haven't seen where you have confirmed it (apologies if i have missed it), but what payment method did you actually want to use?


To clarify a few things overall,

There is documentation that states you should arrive at the station in sufficient time, but very little to clarify what this is. It would be acceptable to assume that for a small unstaffed station that 5 minutes would be acceptable. After all, the TSA and several passenger charters suggest a maximum ticket purchasing time of between 3 and 5 minutes and they in many cases go on to say that should you be faced with a waiting time of more than this you would be entitled to purchase at the next available opportunity.

At the t - 5 minute mark you were unable to purchase a ticket, you'd have to be an appalling train operating company to consider issuing a penalty fare to someone who cannot purchase a ticket for this reason, which is exactly why you're in this position. Their actions here are encouraging passengers to run on station platforms, and to take risks around level crossings, i suspect that some people would foolishly attempt to climb over the barriers and whilst this is unjustifiable this sort of action is encouraged by pathetic attempts to squeeze cash out of fare paying passengers.

Your first opportunity to pay seemed to be on the train but for reasons we cannot and must not judge, the guard did not sell you a ticket. This could be that they were too busy, or they wanted you to get a penalty fare but are not trained and as such not allowed to issue them, or that they simply couldn't be bothered.

The guard told you to obtain a ticket from staff at Preston. This is permission to travel, from an authorised member of staff. They stated you could purchase a ticket not a penalty fare.

Overall it is an abysmal example of customer service from Northern, something that we see more often than not and I would suggest you strongly consider appealing this, explaining the key points. You will likely need to go to the 3rd stage of appeal as that one is handled by people who go golfing on alternative days to everyone else. However, as i said at the start, the choice is entirely yours and i understand why people want to just pay money to make it go away, even when they shouldn't have to.

 

[Karl]

Options for the OP for the 2nd Jab.
1. Arrive 10 mins before departure as the OP suggested.
2. Buy the ticket in advance, time wise if not date wise with a trip down to the station earlier in the day.
3. Catch the bus, it takes you direct to the vaccination centre, no need to walk across town or potentially wait a long time to get back home.
4. Walk it. Its 3 miles, one hour each way. Part of the OP's daily exercise.

Good luck with the appeal. I presume you are going to appeal as you have thanked everyone for their advice, and their advice is appeal.

Option 4 was my intended choice on the day. However the weather put paid to that.

I love the walk from Bamber Bridge to Preston along the old East Lancs route into Preston along and parallel to the old Tram Road. It's a beautiful route and brings back many memories from when I was a kid and the track was still there, although the line had closed. Todd Lane Junction station, formerly Preston Junction, was still extant in the 1970's and was part of my cross country PE (physical education) route when I was a pupil at the nearby Lostock Hall County Secondary school. I can still remember running along the track, trying to keep my stride in coordination with the wooden sleepers, trying not to come a cropper. I never managed to win the race!

My next jab is the 25th May. Hopefully the weather will be better by then. I might use my ticket for the return journey, although that would seem a waste of a free ride.

Thanks again folks. I've just had a nice online chat with a Northern lass on their website. She recommended me to put in an appeal. I've just come off the site having put in my claim. I'm not bothered about the twenty quid. I just want my name clearing from being a fare dodger. This whole episode has hurt me

 

[Rhinojerry]

Shame,my jab is 24th May,i could have given you a lift.Many times i do the trip from BB,and the conductor just stays in the rear cab,even if not busy.

 

[Karl]

Here's the reply from my appeal. I've had to redact my address etc...

Dear Mr Jhonson, To ensure fairness and consistency in the decision-making process, appeals are considered in conjunction with a code of practice. The statements submitted on behalf of the passenger and the train company will both be taken into account by an experienced assessor to determine the appeal outcome. More information about how appeals are decided is available on our homepage at www.penaltyservices.co.uk.

Many rail users consider penalty fares to be an accusation of fare avoidance but this is not the case at all. A penalty fare is simply a higher fare which may be issued under The Penalty Fares Rules and Regulations by a member of staff who is licensed to act on behalf of a train operating company which has an approved penalty fare scheme in place.

Penalty fare warning posters are on display at every penalty fares station (as required under Regulation 8) advising customers of the consequences for boarding a penalty fares train without a valid ticket or other authority to travel in their possession. The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) advise that where the facility to buy a ticket exists prior to boarding, passengers should pay the correct fare for their entire journey before they travel and produce for inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train, otherwise they may be liable to pay a penalty fare.

When contesting a penalty fare, the appellant is required to supply all the information necessary to allow a fair assessment to take place, within 21 days from the day after the date of issue. As you have not advised us of the time that you personally arrived at Bamber Bridge station and also the advertised departure time of the train caught from there, which are relevant factors, unfortunately, we are unable to take your appeal any further at the present time.

Should you wish us to move your case forward to the assessment stage, please supply the relevant information within 14 days from the date this letter was received either by email to '[email protected]' or by post to 'Penalty Services, 12 Deben Mill Business Centre, Old Maltings Approach, Woodbridge, IP12 1BL'. If you are posting these documents, please attach a covering note which includes the penalty fare notice number. For postal requests, the date received is the second working day after the letter/post date as defined in paragraph 3 of schedule 2 of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018. For email requests, the date received is the letter date. Once we have this information we will contact the train company to establish what ticket purchasing facilities were available and whether queuing standards were being met at the time of travel. If we don't hear from you within 14 days, it will be assumed you have decided not to pursue your appeal, the paperwork will be filed and the debt recovery process will be resumed. In this case, you should pay any outstanding debt within the same 14 day time period. Failure to pay may result in administration fees being Mr Karl Jhonson ** ******** Bamber Bridge Preston PR* * 1ABC added by the train company or its debt recovery agency and/or the train company may choose to commence court proceedings to recover the outstanding debt.

Yours sincerely Karen Wainwright

.... I'm not happy. I'm going to have to send them my photographs I took that day. I only hope my camera was set at the correct time.

If I win this appeal, some charity is going to be the winner.

Come on Northern, give us a break!

 

[AlterEgo]

Did you give them the information you bolded?

 

[Watershed]

Here's the reply from my appeal. I've had to redact my address etc...

Dear Mr Jhonson, To ensure fairness and consistency in the decision-making process, appeals are considered in conjunction with a code of practice. The statements submitted on behalf of the passenger and the train company will both be taken into account by an experienced assessor to determine the appeal outcome. More information about how appeals are decided is available on our homepage at www.penaltyservices.co.uk.

Many rail users consider penalty fares to be an accusation of fare avoidance but this is not the case at all. A penalty fare is simply a higher fare which may be issued under The Penalty Fares Rules and Regulations by a member of staff who is licensed to act on behalf of a train operating company which has an approved penalty fare scheme in place.

Penalty fare warning posters are on display at every penalty fares station (as required under Regulation 8) advising customers of the consequences for boarding a penalty fares train without a valid ticket or other authority to travel in their possession. The National Rail Conditions of Travel (NRCoT) advise that where the facility to buy a ticket exists prior to boarding, passengers should pay the correct fare for their entire journey before they travel and produce for inspection a valid ticket as evidence of their right to make a journey on the relevant train, otherwise they may be liable to pay a penalty fare.

When contesting a penalty fare, the appellant is required to supply all the information necessary to allow a fair assessment to take place, within 21 days from the day after the date of issue. As you have not advised us of the time that you personally arrived at Bamber Bridge station and also the advertised departure time of the train caught from there, which are relevant factors, unfortunately, we are unable to take your appeal any further at the present time.

Should you wish us to move your case forward to the assessment stage, please supply the relevant information within 14 days from the date this letter was received either by email to '[email protected]' or by post to 'Penalty Services, 12 Deben Mill Business Centre, Old Maltings Approach, Woodbridge, IP12 1BL'. If you are posting these documents, please attach a covering note which includes the penalty fare notice number. For postal requests, the date received is the second working day after the letter/post date as defined in paragraph 3 of schedule 2 of The Railways (Penalty Fares) Regulations 2018. For email requests, the date received is the letter date. Once we have this information we will contact the train company to establish what ticket purchasing facilities were available and whether queuing standards were being met at the time of travel. If we don't hear from you within 14 days, it will be assumed you have decided not to pursue your appeal, the paperwork will be filed and the debt recovery process will be resumed. In this case, you should pay any outstanding debt within the same 14 day time period. Failure to pay may result in administration fees being Mr Karl Jhonson ** ******** Bamber Bridge Preston PR* * 1ABC added by the train company or its debt recovery agency and/or the train company may choose to commence court proceedings to recover the outstanding debt.

Yours sincerely Karen Wainwright

.... I'm not happy. I'm going to have to send them my photographs I took that day. I only hope my camera was set at the correct time.

If I win this appeal, some charity is going to be the winner.

Come on Northern, give us a break!

It doesn't sound like they are asking for evidence of the time you were there, just for you to tell them.

Of course, if you have timestamped photographs then all the better.

The wording of that response makes it plainly obvious that Penalty Services aren't exactly approaching the appeal with an open mind...

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Looks like a standard rejection letter, with a small section in which they have inserted details relevant to your particular appeal.

 

[Tallguy]

I think it’s quite reasonable of the TOC to ask for the information they have requested. Time stamped pics may help but you may find they have retained the CCTV for that day and now want to corroborate your story. If corroborated, you then have leverage to take this matter further in terms of potential tidally getting a second ticket machine installed on the side of the station that currently doesn’t have one.

 

[robbeech]

Does the penalty fare not have the journey details on it?

 

[Karl]

Sorry for the tardy reply folks. My daughter has now taken on this case. I will keep you updated. Thanks for your advice.

 

[ic31420]

There should be a TVM on each platform depending upon layout and access to each platform/station so I would suggest appealing but ultimately you boarded a train without a valid ticket. You don’t need a mobile phone to buy a ticket in advance, you obviously have internet access so could have purchased a ticket in advance and printed it out.

I did not know that.

I am a bit of a ticket dinosaur. I like a bit of orange card. (Arnt modern tickets an abomination). So I usually buy from the ticket orifice or TVM (also often an abomination)

Despite being smart phone user with the Trainline app installed I thought I had to pick up tickets bought online or use an e ticket on my phone. If found them to be a ballache requiring activation before use but not too far before use etc. I also prefer a ticket that doesn't tie me to a specific train.

Anyway from where does one purchase a print at home ticket? Not that i.have a printer to print it on, but I could i suppose email it to myself and print at work.

 

[T-Karmel]

Anyway from where does one purchase a print at home ticket? Not that i.have a printer to print it on, but I could i suppose email it to myself and print at work.

I suppose it's enough to buy from an app/website of any other TOC than Northern? Just tried it on SWR app and it shows option "eTicket" alongside ticket to collect for the journey made by OP (Bamber Bridge to Preston). eTickets should come as a QR code and you could either screenshot them and send them to your email for print, or maybe they even come in the email confirmation too.

Whilst it's mTickets that require activation. And trying same thing on Northern app it shows "Delivery method: Mobile" - what I understand to be a mTicket.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I suppose it's enough to buy from an app/website of any other TOC than Northern? Just tried it on SWR app and it shows option "eTicket" alongside ticket to collect for the journey made by OP (Bamber Bridge to Preston). eTickets should come as a QR code and you could either screenshot them and send them to your email for print, or maybe they even come in the email confirmation too.

Whilst it's mTickets that require activation. And trying same thing on Northern app it shows "Delivery method: Mobile" - what I understand to be a mTicket.

You don't screen shot an eTicket you just forward the email, no need to print anything. Please think of the enviroment.

 

[ash39]

I'd contest that. You were at the station in plenty of time to buy a ticket, but couldn't. You then made two further attempts to purchase a ticket, not at any point did you try and get away without paying.

 

[class17]

I'd contest that. You were at the station in plenty of time to buy a ticket, but couldn't. You then made two further attempts to purchase a ticket, not at any point did you try and get away without paying.

The OP has made an appeal, he has received a reply which he quotes in post #42. It would appear he did not tell them the time he arrived at the station, so they have asked for this information. Hopefully his photographs have a date stamp, or he can calculate his arrival time based on the fact the barriers were closed due to arrival time of a train in the opposite direction.

But he does need to give this information before his appeal can be examined.

 

[ash39]

Sorry I hold my hands up - only read the first page of the thread and didn't realise there was a page 2!

Good luck with the appeal

 

[class17]

Sorry I hold my hands up - only read the first page of the thread and didn't realise there was a page 2!

Good luck with the appeal

That's OK, but the OP hasn't specifically said he is going to reply with the information he has been asked to give, only that his daughter is on the case. Lets hope his daughter can work out the time of his arrival at the station based on the arrival of the train in the opposite direction and that she replied promptly.