Northern 0827 Manchester Airport - Windermere...Sat, 25th May

[Xenophon PCDGS]

The first most intending passengers knew of this train being cancelled was a tannoy announcement at 0815. It was not shown as being cancelled on the monitor bank when we arrived at 0750 (it was actually shown as departing from platform 3A) and we were in the platform café finishing our snacks when the announcement was heard. Does anyone know why this service was cancelled?

 

[cactustwirly]

The first most intending passengers knew of this train being cancelled was a tannoy announcement at 0815. It was not shown as being cancelled on the monitor bank when we arrived at 0750 and we were in the platform café finishing our snacks when the announcement was heard. Does anyone know why this service was cancelled?

According to RTT it was because of the late arriving of the inbound service.
The service was actually started at Lancaster at 1001

 

[Plethora]

Northern seem to be suffering with driver shortages today. Trains on Liverpool - Crewe have been late and cancelled. I was stuck at Oxford Road because the driver for my Liverpool service was arriving on the train to Crewe which was 15 minutes late. I hope that's not how all of Northern's rotas work, because all it takes is one late service to muck up the Castlefield corridor.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

According to RTT it was because of the late arriving of the inbound service.
The service was actually started at Lancaster at 1001

What was the reason why the inbound service referred to was "late arriving". The fact that intending passengers from Manchester Airport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road and Wigan North Western looking forward to a day out at Windermere are informed that the service was only starting at Lancaster rubs salt into the proverbial wound.

 

[cactustwirly]

What was the reason why the inbound service referred to was "late arriving". The fact that intending passengers from Manchester Airport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road and Wigan North Western looking forward to a day out at Windermere are informed that the service was only starting at Lancaster rubs salt into the proverbial wound.

I have no idea.
It's not the end of the world, things happen, anyway you could have got a TPE service to Oxenholme and changed there for Windermere

 

[323235]

It was shown as being cancelled due to a planning error. It arrived at Lancaster ontime at 0650.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

I have no idea.
It's not the end of the world, things happen, anyway you could have got a TPE service to Oxenholme and changed there for Windermere

TPE staff on the station said that a Northern advance ticket to Windermere would not be accepted for travel on a TPE service. Were they right in saying this?

 

[stuart100100]

According to RTT it was because of the late arriving of the inbound service.
The service was actually started at Lancaster at 1001

I caught this service at Lancaster up to Windermere. Got delayed at Oxenholme due to the amount of people boarding the service and ended up leaving some behind as it was so full.

2 car 158 instead of the 3 car 185 when TP ran it

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

2 car 158 instead of the 3 car 185 when TP ran it

Did Northern think that a Saturday with good weather would not attract prospective rail travellers to Windermere and that a 2-car unit would suffice?

When my good lady wife (77) and I (74) regularly travelled to Windermere in the "good-old TPE days", we always travelled with seat reservation tickets in First Class.

 

[PHILIPE]

Did Northern think that a Saturday with good weather would not attract prospective rail travellers to Windermere and that a 2-car unit would suffice?

When my good lady wife (77) and I (74) regularly travelled to Windermere in the "good-old TPE days", we always travelled with seat reservation tickets in First Class.

Had Northern got any 3 Car formations available ?

 

[gimmea50anyday]

TPE staff on the station said that a Northern advance ticket to Windermere would not be accepted for travel on a TPE service. Were they right in saying this?

Unfortunately yes as an advance purchase ticket restricts you to that train. In the event of a cancellation you will be accommodated on the following service operated by the same company UNLESS ticket acceptance has been agreed with other operators. Sadly thats the price of privatisation....

 

[Mathew S]

It's been happening all week. Driver shortages leasing to full/part cancellations. It's not good enough, and if it carries on is going to cost Northern a lot on compensation & lost custom.
I don't understand how, a year on from when this started, Northern still haven't recruited more staff to operate these trains, it comes across as utterly pathetic.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Had Northern got any 3 Car formations available ?

Northern seem able to run 2 x 2 car sets on a number of services that I have travelled on. What is the normal coach length of their service from the Manchester area to Barrow-in-Furness, another service they took over from TPE which once was a 3-car Class 185 in those days?

I live just outside the borders of the TfGM empire and am used to seeing, at Wilmslow station, examples of similar TOC optimism when TfW (and the former ATW) TOC feel quite happy to run a 2-car Class 175 from Manchester to Milford Haven.

 

[Bovverboy]

Did Northern think that a Saturday with good weather would not attract prospective rail travellers to Windermere and that a 2-car unit would suffice?

Had Northern got any 3 Car formations available ?

If people are fully aware that a two-car unit is unlikely to satisfy demand, then to say "sorry, folks, we didn't have a three-car unit available" is on a par with failing to run a service altogether and saying "sorry, folks, we didn't have a train!". For a TOC to find themselves suddenly, and unnecessarily, overwhelmed with passengers I find quite unprofessional.
Of course, there is a problem with Oxenholme-Windermere in that a three-car unit is the largest train which can be accommodated (I presume) and also, only one train can be on the line at any one time. However, Northern, like most TOCs, have a reduced requirement for rolling stock on a Saturday, so finding a three-car unit to use shouldn't have presented a problem. If it had done, they could have always resorted to partial coach substitution, e.g. run a coach non-stop from Oxenholme to Windermere, it would do the journey in a time comparable with that of the train, traffic permitting. Whether it would have been in Northern's interest to do that is another matter.

 

[_toommm_]

Had Northern got any 3 Car formations available ?

They've got a few in the 158/7 series, but they mainly stick to Man Vic to Leeds via Bradford, and York to Preston/Blackpool services.

 

[6Gman]

Northern seem able to run 2 x 2 car sets on a number of services that I have travelled on. What is the normal coach length of their service from the Manchester area to Barrow-in-Furness, another service they took over from TPE which once was a 3-car Class 185 in those days?

I live just outside the borders of the TfGM empire and am used to seeing, at Wilmslow station, examples of similar TOC optimism when TfW (and the former ATW) TOC feel quite happy to run a 2-car Class 175 from Manchester to Milford Haven.

But a 2-car 175 is often quite adequate (at least on the sections of the route I use, mainly Manchester - Ludlow).

 

[_toommm_]

What was the reason why the inbound service referred to was "late arriving". The fact that intending passengers from Manchester Airport, Manchester Piccadilly, Manchester Oxford Road and Wigan North Western looking forward to a day out at Windermere are informed that the service was only starting at Lancaster rubs salt into the proverbial wound.

Cancellation code TI - RTT interprets it as a Planning Error (generically) but it's a traincrew rostering error:

https://wiki.openraildata.com/index.php/Delay_Attribution_Guide

 

[northernchris]

They've got a few in the 158/7 series, but they mainly stick to Man Vic to Leeds via Bradford, and York to Preston/Blackpool services.

They don't appear to work the Leeds - Manchester Victoria / Chester services now as some have been borrowed for the Manchester Airport - Windermere / Oxenholme services until the 195s are in service

 

[Bovverboy]

What no-one seems to have mentioned is the fact that the two previous scheduled journeys from Oxenholme to Windermere - the 0827 and 0920 - were both cancelled. That would certainly have increased the number of people waiting at Oxenholme, if no alternative transport was provided.

 

[js1000]

Northern seem to be suffering with driver shortages today. Trains on Liverpool - Crewe have been late and cancelled. I was stuck at Oxford Road because the driver for my Liverpool service was arriving on the train to Crewe which was 15 minutes late. I hope that's not how all of Northern's rotas work, because all it takes is one late service to muck up the Castlefield corridor.

Services through Manchester fell apart from about 10-ish. A couple of delayed or cancelled trains creates a chain reaction of sorts.

 

[M60lad]

I planned to be on this service to get me to Lancaster for the Stagecoach Open Day up there yesterday, I actually checked on Reat Time Trains about 07:30ish and found out then that it had been cancelled from Manchester Piccadilly so made alternate arrangements and caught 09:26 Lockerbie service instead to Lancaster.

Actually one of the reasons being given for yesterday mornings problems was down to the power supply problems to the overhead wires on Friday, all I can guess is that first thing yesterday morning some crews and units were in the wrong places to start service yesterday morning.

One good thing I did see yesterday was that Northern actually held 10:13 Lancaster-Carlisle via Barrow service at Lancaster for any intending passengers getting off the 09:26 TPE Lockerbie service

 

[a_c_skinner]

One good thing I did see yesterday was that Northern actually held 10:13 Lancaster-Carlisle via Barrow service at Lancaster for any intending passengers getting off the 09:26 TPE Lockerbie service

Barrow bound connections are usually held like that. I imagine it is really to allow a clear line to Carnforth for any late running down trains but I like to think it is because Lancaster is a well run station. Which it is. From time to time I email Virgin to tell them just that.

I begin to think the best solution for Windermere is a captive unit with everyone changing at Oxenholme. It is good enough for many Windermere journeys (or has been, I'd need to check). Of course our vocal MP would hate that but a reliable service with a single, easy, change is better for travellers though not for votes. I long to mention 230s as the line is slow and would benefit from acceleration. Yes I know what the replies will be.

Someone asks what length of set is used on the Furness Line. Many seem now to be four car. The single 153 that for many years left Lancaster as the school children arrived at Lancaster station seems a distant (if vivid) memory.

 

[underbank]

The single 153 that for many years left Lancaster as the school children arrived at Lancaster station seems a distant (if vivid) memory.

We have to be grateful for small mercies.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Unfortunately yes as an advance purchase ticket restricts you to that train. In the event of a cancellation you will be accommodated on the following service operated by the same company UNLESS ticket acceptance has been agreed with other operators. Sadly thats the price of privatisation....

In the case of attempting to travel on the 0827 from Manchester Airport direct to Windermere without changing, there not being another such direct service after it that would allow for a day trip there, I suppose any financial advantage of using Advance tickets strictly relies on Northern actually running the service in the first place. Incidentally, the tickets were purchased at Manchester Airport booking office on Monday, 20th May and the booking clerk made no mention at the time of booking of any possible engineering works on the day of travel.

 

[Ianno87]

In the case of attempting to travel on the 0827 from Manchester Airport direct to Windermere without changing, there not being another such direct service after it that would allow for a day trip there, I suppose any financial advantage of using Advance tickets strictly relies on Northern actually running the service in the first place. Incidentally, the tickets were purchased at Manchester Airport booking office on Monday, 20th May and the booking clerk made no mention at the time of booking of any possible engineering works on the day of travel.

Whilst you could've made it to Preston reasonably easily on alternative Northern services, the next Northern service beyond there appears not to have been until the 1129 Airport-Windermere. Day trip or no day trip, does seem unreasonable to insist on waiting a full 3 hours...

Did you think to ask the guard on an alternative TPE service, rather than the platform staff? He/she'd possibly be more aware of the infrequent Northern service beyond Preston.

Either that, or get to Preston via Northern then ask again there?

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

Did you think to ask the guard on an alternative TPE service, rather than the platform staff? He/she'd possibly be more aware of the infrequent Northern service beyond Preston.

It was a TPE station supervisor who was called by another member of TPE staff who said as the Advance tickets for the outward journey from Manchester Airport were only valid for the stated 0827 journey on Northern Rail and would not be accepted on any TPE service. Incidentally, during the conversation, it was stated that a later Northern service to Preston was cancelled as no driver was available.

 

[Ianno87]

It was a TPE station supervisor who was called by another member of TPE staff who said as the Advance tickets for the outward journey from Manchester Airport were only valid for the stated 0827 journey on Northern Rail and would not be accepted on any TPE service. Incidentally, during the conversation, it was stated that a later Northern service to Preston was cancelled as no driver was available.

You should have asked them "OK, so when *is* the next train I can get?". That might have caused the penny to drop! Especially with the subsequent cancellation.

In any case, probably worth writing to Northern to request a refund.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

You should have asked them "OK, so when *is* the next train I can get?". That might have caused the penny to drop! Especially with the subsequent cancellation.

In any case, probably worth writing to Northern to request a refund.

By this time of the hiatus, the amount of available time to spend on a day trip would have been severely curtailed. From what I have since read about the cancellation of two Oxenholme to Windermere morning shuttles in a posting on this thread with passengers being left behind and the thought of how on earth the intended direct return mid-afternoon service would be loading, not having reserved seats as we used to in the days when TPE ran the service, was not one that would fill even the most hardened rail traveller with confidence.

I have already telephoned the Customer Service team at Northern and they were fully aware of early morning Saturday matters on this 0827 service, seemingly as they had already spoken to two sets of affected passengers on the very same matter. They took my name and address and said they would post two return tickets to be used anywhere on the Northern network at any time of the day, then awaited my complaint form and affected tickets that were not used, which were posted on Saturday, to see if any other recompense may be forthcoming.

 

[Bovverboy]

The first most intending passengers knew of this train being cancelled was a tannoy announcement at 0815. It was not shown as being cancelled on the monitor bank when we arrived at 0750 (it was actually shown as departing from platform 3A) and we were in the platform café finishing our snacks when the announcement was heard. Does anyone know why this service was cancelled?

It was shown as being cancelled due to a planning error. It arrived at Lancaster ontime at 0650.

If it was known as early as 0650 that the 0827 Airport to Windermere wasn't going to be operating, there doesn't seem to much justification for failing to acknowledge the fact to waiting passengers at the Airport until 0815.

Xenophon PGDGS, I'm not trying to justify failure to run trains, but did you check before leaving home that the 0827 was showing as operating normally, or that the inbound journey was shown as running to time? You must be reasonably techno-savvy to be contributing to this forum.

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

It was not shown as being cancelled on the monitor bank when we arrived at 0750 (it was actually shown as departing from platform 3A)

Perhaps I have too much faith in TOC actually running advertised services. I do not check in advance to see if any rail service is actually running. We had booked the advance tickets some days earlier and expected the TOC to run the service. Perhaps it might be a novel idea if TOC took advance bookings with no need to pay at the time, only on the day of the advertised service, but of course, that never would happen.

Incidentally, is it customary for prospective airline passengers to check prior to departure whether or not the plane will depart?