Northern 158's Problems

[dave87016]

Northern 158's are suffering with problems of late , newly refurbished 158752 failed on its first day in service , other 158's have had problems

On Thursday as I was going Chesterfield the 0655 from Blackburn formed of 158757 the leading carriage had no lights so was locked out of service and terminated at Leeds were it went to Neville Hill and 158755 took over coming back we boarded 1745pm service formed of 158755 at Garforth the middle carriage had no lights so the train was terminated at Leeds to await a swapped unit when it arrived it was 158757 !!!!

Today the 0557 Leeds - Blackpool North terminated Hebden Bridge due to Low Power on 158843 and the 0620 York - Blackpool Nth formed of 158757 failed at Leeds with one engine out.

I can't recall so many faults on 158's I find them
To be very reliable but they are taking a battering lately

 

[Adam0984]

I think the 3 car sets have been worked quite intensely recently to try and keep capacity with been 1 set short for a few months and been 2 down for the past month or so

 

[driver_m]

If they're going wrong, I presume they'll be getting dumped on the West side very soon then? Or am I just being a tad cynical?

 

[yorksrob]

Locking out a carriage just because there were no lights ? You'd barely have had any carriages open on XC in the early noughties if you'd done that !

 

[TrainfanBen]

A dark train would be a refreshing travelling experience really! Most carriages are too bright with the night time lighting, although I suspect that wouldn't ordinarily be an issue with the 158's and the older style lighting they have.

I think the 3 car sets have been worked quite intensely recently to try and keep capacity with been 1 set short for a few months and been 2 down for the past month or so

Why are they missing sets [I'm under informed]?
And furthermore, I'm unsure of how a shortage of sets will affect maintenance;
Do they get more time to be worked on because the maintenance have less sets to deal with? Or are they getting less overall maintenance due to working unusual diagrams etc? Or have I missed the point entirely?

On a seperate note, how long does the 158 have left at Northern? (If this has been discussed elsewhere please re-direct me)

~Ben

 

[superkev]

Seems that northerns idea of a refurbishment is just cosmetic and not mechanical. On running maintenance Northerns depots don't seem to feature much in modern railways golden spammers awards.
K

Northern 158's are suffering with problems of late , newly refurbished 158752 failed on its first day in service , other 158's have had problems

On Thursday as I was going Chesterfield the 0655 from Blackburn formed of 158757 the leading carriage had no lights so was locked out of service and terminated at Leeds were it went to Neville Hill and 158755 took over coming back we boarded 1745pm service formed of 158755 at Garforth the middle carriage had no lights so the train was terminated at Leeds to await a swapped unit when it arrived it was 158757 !!!!

Today the 0557 Leeds - Blackpool North terminated Hebden Bridge due to Low Power on 158843 and the 0620 York - Blackpool Nth formed of 158757 failed at Leeds with one engine out.

I can't recall so many faults on 158's I find them
To be very reliable but they are taking a battering lately

 

[Adam0984]

A dark train would be a refreshing travelling experience really! Most carriages are too bright with the night time lighting, although I suspect that wouldn't ordinarily be an issue with the 158's and the older style lighting they have.


Why are they missing sets [I'm under informed]?
And furthermore, I'm unsure of how a shortage of sets will affect maintenance;
Do they get more time to be worked on because the maintenance have less sets to deal with? Or are they getting less overall maintenance due to working unusual diagrams etc? Or have I missed the point entirely?

On a seperate note, how long does the 158 have left at Northern? (If this has been discussed elsewhere please re-direct me)

~Ben

Well 158752 was gone for a few months, when 752 came back on the Saturday from Kilmarnock 756 went up the following day but it's took 4/5 weeks to actually get 752 out so that meant we was 2 3 car sets short so where as a train might have sat on depot for the day getting a bit of TLC it was out keeping the usual capacity up

 

[alexl92]

A dark train would be a refreshing travelling experience really! Most carriages are too bright with the night time lighting, although I suspect that wouldn't ordinarily be an issue with the 158's and the older style lighting they have.

Agreed!

Why are they missing sets [I'm under informed]?
And furthermore, I'm unsure of how a shortage of sets will affect maintenance;
Do they get more time to be worked on because the maintenance have less sets to deal with? Or are they getting less overall maintenance due to working unusual diagrams etc? Or have I missed the point entirely?

They sent 158752 to be refurbished with the new livery, PIS, interior etc. Whilst it's away, they've had to try and cover its work (as a 3-car unit - most 158s are two-car) with other units, meaning that each of the remaining 3-car 158s has to work harder, but also that they have less 'down time' in the depot during which they can be maintained.

In short, the workload of the units left goes up and the attention they can get from fitters is reduced. It's a vicious cycle!

 

[TrainfanBen]

Agreed!
They sent 158752 to be refurbished with the new livery, PIS, interior etc. Whilst it's away, they've had to try and cover its work (as a 3-car unit - most 158s are two-car) with other units, meaning that each of the remaining 3-car 158s has to work harder, but also that they have less 'down time' in the depot during which they can be maintained.

In short, the workload of the units left goes up and the attention they can get from fitters is reduced. It's a vicious cycle!

That's pretty much what I was thinking, thanks

 

[superkev]

I don't recall any northern depots featuring in any golden spanbers awards.
Perhaps they should get south west trains to look after them for them.
K

 

[railfan100]

If I recall correctly when 158757 was with FNW many years ago it managed to achieve nearly 75,000 miles without casualty. With careful maintenance all of the 'Sprinter' stock can be very dependable. Looking at Northern today whilst they of course have a mature fleet to say the least, maintenance does seem to be below par.

 

[northernchris]

Northern's MPC rates do tend to improve most years though. Saying that the 333s haven't been that great this year

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I don't recall any northern depots featuring in any golden spanbers awards.
Perhaps they should get south west trains to look after them for them.
K

Comparisons with SWT's diesel fleet are highly inappropriate. In excess of 80% of SWT's DMUs visit their home depot (Salisbury) every day, either overnight or between the peaks. This makes it possible to deal with many minor issues before they ever develop into performance issues. It helps that the peak to off-peak ratio of unit requirement is still quite high.

Northern's problem is a geographically thin network with only 4 proper maintenance depots. This leads to units spending three or more days between maintenance depot visits allowing minor faults to develop into something more serious. The situation would be even worse were it not for the efforts of fitters based at strategic stations carrying out running repairs (often "bodges" in reality) either during turnarounds or sometimes while in service.

 

[railfan100]

Comparisons with SWT's diesel fleet are highly inappropriate. In excess of 80% of SWT's DMUs visit their home depot (Salisbury) every day, either overnight or between the peaks. This makes it possible to deal with many minor issues before they ever develop into performance issues. It helps that the peak to off-peak ratio of unit requirement is still quite high.

Northern's problem is a geographically thin network with only 4 proper maintenance depots. This leads to units spending three or more days between maintenance depot visits allowing minor faults to develop into something more serious. The situation would be even worse were it not for the efforts of fitters based at strategic stations carrying out running repairs (often "bodges" in reality) either during turnarounds or sometimes while in service.

Maybe Northern need to be more dynamic and proactive in their fleet management. Flogging elderly units to death that have covered millions of miles is not good management. SWT know how to run a fleet and holistically despite the underlying reasons Northern with the present strategic direction and management are not able to deliver a reliable and well maintained fleet in this results orientated world.

 

[1D53]

What's the other option? Run no service before 8am and after 8pm so you can get everything back to a Depot for maintenance every night?

 

[railfan100]

What's the other option? Run no service before 8am and after 8pm so you can get everything back to a Depot for maintenance every night?

Northern should only advertise a timetable that they are able to run reliably with the existing fleet of mature of stock. If they cannot they should point the finger at the DFT as appropriate due to a lack of units. If stock is pushed so hard that the timetable has very limited maintenance windows that is sadly a strategic management error. As well as providing reactive break fix repairs they should also revise and review the level of proactive maintenance for the units. I seem to recall when ABB\BREL constructed the Class 158 units the original scheduled maintenance was every 12,500 miles, is this being done? Or have Northern 'strategically' extended this?

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Maybe Northern need to be more dynamic and proactive in their fleet management. Flogging elderly units to death that have covered millions of miles is not good management. SWT know how to run a fleet and holistically despite the underlying reasons Northern with the present strategic direction and management are not able to deliver a reliable and well maintained fleet in this results orientated world.

With a tiny number of exceptions SWT's diesel operated services all start, finish or pass through the city in which the diesel maintenance depot is located. How on earth can you expect Northern to come anywhere near that sort of operational and maintenance convenience? Their networks are not in any way comparable.

The reality is that DMUs since the days of the Modernisation Plan have required more maintenance than expected once the newness has worn off. It was true of First Generation DMUs and it is true of Sprinters and Pacers. Only in more recent times has it been realised just how beneficial it is to get units back to depot as near daily as possible from new. Look at TPE 185s or VT/XC Voyagers: part of the acquisition funding included provision for suitable maintenance facilities at strategic locations. Not just shoe-horn them into the existing, likely inadequate, maintenance "network".

Northern should only advertise a timetable that they are able to run reliably with the existing fleet of mature of stock. If they cannot they should point the finger at the DFT as appropriate due to a lack of units. If stock is pushed so hard that the timetable has very limited maintenance windows that is sadly a strategic management error. As well as providing reactive break fix repairs they should also revise and review the level of proactive maintenance for the units. I seem to recall when ABB\BREL constructed the Class 158 units the original scheduled maintenance was every 12,500 miles, is this being done? Or have Northern 'strategically' extended this?

Do you honestly think the DfT would accept franchise bids which effectively said "your timetable is too difficult to achieve so you can either cut it back or allow funding for a bigger fleet"? Yes the DfT is to blame but their officials are far more interested in meeting politicians' aspirations than worrying about trains always being turned out in pristine condition. The franchised railway is, like it or not, an area where the idealism you display has absolutely no place. Unless of course you think you can persuade voters to decide their ballot choices based solely on getting a better railway.

 

[superkev]

Maybe Northern need to be more dynamic and proactive in their fleet management. Flogging elderly units to death that have covered millions of miles is not good management. SWT know how to run a fleet and holistically despite the underlying reasons Northern with the present strategic direction and management are not able to deliver a reliable and well maintained fleet in this results orientated world.

I think very few northern 158's don't return to there home depot (Leeds) so I don't see the Salisbury argument. I suspect it's as always down to money. Accountants usually look on maintenance as a overhead.
K

 

[railfan100]

I think very few northern 158's don't return to there home depot (Leeds) so I don't see the Salisbury argument. I suspect it's as always down to money. Accountants usually look on maintenance as a overhead.
K

I suspect it is money related, there is nothing stopping Northern having more 'proactive mobile foot soldiers' that will at the end of turns check basic things like fluids and other common maintenance areas. Surely they review all Class casualty figures at the end of each month and address how they can at least somewhat attempt to reduce risk in each respective area.

Whilst I accept that Northern units are not always running local to each base I still do not accept this is a reason for the presentation and reliability of their stock in general. I do not blame the maintenance personnel either they work under what are challenging expectations, the problems at Northern are much higher up the management chain with regards to how such legacy units are run into the ground and not maintained as well as they could be.

I would be keen to know if servicing on the Class 158 units is conducted every 12,500 miles or a similar number of engine hours as prescribed by the standards documented for the Class on introduction.

 

[edwin_m]

I think very few northern 158's don't return to there home depot (Leeds) so I don't see the Salisbury argument. I suspect it's as always down to money. Accountants usually look on maintenance as a overhead.
K

Another factor could be that SWT is very "peaky" so there are plenty of units free between the peaks, and it is relatively easy to get them to Salisbury. Many trains split and join there so a faulty unit could even be coupled to another one if necessary. There is then the opportunity either to fix the problem or to replace it with another good unit before the rush hour. If they're clever/lucky (delete as applicable) it might not even count as a technical casualty.

As is well known, most of Northern's units are earning money from early morning to sometime in the evening so there isn't that opportunity to intervene unless a service is cancelled - which will almost certainly lead to other cancellations further down the diagram.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

I think very few northern 158's don't return to there home depot (Leeds) so I don't see the Salisbury argument. I suspect it's as always down to money. Accountants usually look on maintenance as a overhead.
K

It so happens I have a set of Northern diagrams from way back in 2007. Yes, they are 9 years out of date and many changes have occurred since. Northern's 158 fleet was smaller then and operated over neither the S&C route nor to Nottingham, or get interworked onto local routes around West Yorkshire. But the other main routes were as today, radiating from Leeds to Blackpool, Manchester and Sheffield, and also from Hull to Scarborough, York and Sheffield. Timetables have changed only marginally since then.

Monday to Friday saw 22 daily diagrams; of these only 6 spent the night in Leeds/Neville Hill. 3 were at Blackpool (servicing only), 1 at Newton Heath (maintenance available though "foreign" traction to that depot), 3 at Sheffield (servicing only), 6 at Hull (facilities at Botanic Gardens eventually increased to provide light maintenance), 1 at Scarborough (interior cleaning at best), and 2 at York (fuel only from TPE depot). The additional mileage/fleet since then will see more units in Leeds each night but also more at Sheffield. Clearly only a fraction of the fleet receives attention each day.

And of course the same applies to the rest of Northern's DMU fleet. Plenty of units spend the night at locations where interior cleaning is the most that can be done. Places like Darlington, Carlisle, Workington, Leyland, Wigan, Stockport, Buxton, Huddersfield, Harrogate, Doncaster in addition to those mentioned above. Even if all units could get to a proper maintenance depot each night there simply isn't the capacity to handle them all. Doubtless the same applies to other DMU operators to some extent: it's a situation inherited from BR that nobody seems to believe is worth spending sufficient money on to make worthwhile improvements, particularly in an era when Government is determined to keep costs down.

I would be keen to know if servicing on the Class 158 units is conducted every 12,500 miles or a similar number of engine hours as prescribed by the standards documented for the Class on introduction.

It is quite normal for train fleets to undergo many different reliability improvements during their relatively long lives. This may be the sourcing of better spare parts or adjusted maintenance procedures in the light of experience, to name just two possibilities. And different TOCs/ROSCOs may very well have different approaches depending on their specific needs. While I cannot quote any specific numbers regarding maintenance intervals I would suggest it is unlikely that such intervals have done anything other than increase over time.

 

[railfan100]

And of course the same applies to the rest of Northern's DMU fleet. Plenty of units spend the night at locations where interior cleaning is the most that can be done. Places like Darlington, Carlisle, Workington, Leyland, Wigan, Stockport, Buxton, Huddersfield, Harrogate, Doncaster in addition to those mentioned above. Even if all units could get to a proper maintenance depot each night there simply isn't the capacity to handle them all. Doubtless the same applies to other DMU operators to some extent: it's a situation inherited from BR that nobody seems to believe is worth spending sufficient money on to make worthwhile improvements, particularly in an era when Government is determined to keep costs down.

Surely Northern must have a fair number of mobile teams that travel the network to the common stabling locations to check basic items like fluids? When BR used the 'Sprinter' stock on intensive diagrams they were new we have to accept these are now legacy fleets with millions of miles on the clock. The 'Sprinter' stock was originally engineered with a 30 year life in mind and they are now no longer able to work intensively without extended and proactive maintenance.

I do not see how the current situation can provide a decent level of service for the travelling public. Northern need mobile teams and need to adapt their engineering management strategy to better reflect the needs of the stock and limitations of the network.