Northern 170s

[tbtc]

Clearly at the moment Northern Rail operate no Class 170s. But electrification of other lines over the rest of this decade (EGIP, TPE North...) as well as potential upgrades to other routes suggests that some 170s may be freed up in the next few years.

Where would you use them though? You'd have fewer seats than a 158 (coach for coach), you'd have 100mph top speed (suited to long distances without stopping), you'd have weak acceleration (so poor on "stoppers"), you'd have wide doors (suited to unloading/loading fairly large passenger numbers at some stations)... but which Northern route would they be most suited to?

To start the ball rolling I'd suggest the Leeds - Carlisle services (some decent distances between stops, I reckon a two coach 170 could cope with the passenger volumes).

(a purely hypothetical thread)

 

[Callum]

The way I see it, after EGIP the class 170's freed up would be better to stay in Scotland allowing a cascade of 156/158's to other operators such as Northern, would make sense as Northern already operate these types, also maintain some form of standardised fleet.

 

[WillPS]

Nottingham - Leeds
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The way I see it, after EGIP the class 170's freed up would be better to stay in Scotland allowing a cascade of 156/158's to other operators such as Northern, would make sense as Northern already operate these types, also maintain some form of standardised fleet.

Some 156s are required in Scotland as 158s and 170s are out of gauge on one line (can't remember which though!!).

 

[IanXC]

Some 156s are required in Scotland as 158s and 170s are out of gauge on one line (can't remember which though!!).

How much gauge clearance would be required though? I have a feeling that Transport Scotland will want to show benefits to travellers on all their lines rather than leave some communities with ageing 156s.

 

[WillPS]

Absolutely no idea - but I suspect that's the only reason they still have a 156 fleet.

 

[tbtc]

Some 156s are required in Scotland as 158s and 170s are out of gauge on one line (can't remember which though!!).

AIUI the West Highland and the Glasgow South Western can't work with 158s (due to the doors?)

 

[Pumbaa]

Not that they *cant* just they haven't been cleared yet as there has been no need.

As soon as someone pulls their finger out they will magically be cleared.

 

[WatcherZero]

Transport Scotland does have a policy of replacing Sprinters so giving them 170's does make sense.

 

[150222]

Man Picc- Chester via Altrincham, Man Vic- Leeds/Selby fast, Liverpool Lime St- Man Airport fast, Leeds- Carlisle, Blackpool Nth- York, Leeds- Carlisle, Leeds- Sheffield/Notts fast, Man Picc to Buxton (off peak) and York- Hull.

 

[37372]

Good ideas for what they could be used on but the Random Unit Generator would no doubt put one onto an all shacks whilst a pacer worked the express!

 

[northwichcat]

Man Picc- Chester via Altrincham

Unless the introduction of a Greenbank-Stockport service sees stops removed from the Chester-Manchester service I'm not sure a 170 would be best utilised on it.

There is potential for the line speed between Greenbank and Northwich to be raised from 20mph to 50mph once Pacers go, saving around 2 minutes but if the trains used don't accelerate quickly then the time saving won't be made.

The 170s could do sections quicker than Pacers/Sprinters but then Northern services sometimes get held in the Stockport and Manchester areas to allow other operators like Virgin to send their trains through first. Which means they may do Stockport-Manchester faster but if they get a couple of red signals then again the time saving would be lost.

Capacity wise on current loadings the standard pattern could be covered by 3 sets of 2 car 170s and 2 sets of 3 car 170s but replace 170 with 158 or 175 and I think you have a better option for the line.

Man Vic- Leeds/Selby fast

185s may also be available to cascade on to Calder Vale.

Liverpool Lime St- Man Airport fast

I'm assuming you mean the proposed new service via Warrington, given that Chat Moss is being electrified. Passenger numbers would likely be too high for a 2 car 170, even at off-peak times.

 

[YorkshireBear]

I wouldnt stick them on the settle to carlisle, them trains can get full quite quickly. I agree with what has been said about scotland, send them there and we will have the 158s much omre use to northern than 170s.

 

[Rhydgaled]

you'd have 100mph top speed (suited to long distances without stopping

you'd have weak acceleration (so poor on "stoppers"),

you'd have wide doors (suited to unloading/loading fairly large passenger numbers at some stations)...

Sounds like a very stupidly designed train if you ask me. The wide doors (and, more importantly, their position along the coach) make them more suited to busy (but relativly short distance) suburban stopping services. However you then ruin that by telling me they have poor acceleration.

In my opinion trains with poor acceleration and high top speeds should have a 158/175-style door layout.

 

[northwichcat]

Sounds like a very stupidly designed train if you ask me. The wide doors (and, more importantly, their position along the coach) make them more suited to busy (but relativly short distance) suburban stopping services. However you then ruin that by telling me they have poor acceleration.

In my opinion trains with poor acceleration and high top speeds should have a 158/175-style door layout.

I don't think the design of the train makes them unsuitable for express services which don't have any intermediate stops or have one or two intermediate stops. However, any services that are frequently held at signals might not be suited to 170s even if they are express.

Hull-London was one route they were ordered for. Having a lot of people boarding and alighting at the origin and destination station means boarding and alighting is fast and not having many intermediate stops means the acceleration issue and heat loss issue with the doors being open, aren't significant issues. However, on this route the 100mph top speed was an issue.

 

[tbtc]

Sounds like a very stupidly designed train if you ask me. The wide doors (and, more importantly, their position along the coach) make them more suited to busy (but relativly short distance) suburban stopping services. However you then ruin that by telling me they have poor acceleration.

In my opinion trains with poor acceleration and high top speeds should have a 158/175-style door layout.

They are a bit "jack of all trades" DMUs, without actually having any one thing that they are *best* at. There are a lot of routes that they use with other operators where they are wasted (like the Chase line north of Walsall).

Hence starting this thread as I suspect that Northern* will get some 170s (even if only the two coach TPE examples) once the planned electrifications are completed at the end of the decade, but I really can't work out where they'd be best used.

(* - by which I mean "the services currently run by the Northern franchise - I appreciate that there may be a change in the franchise map such as TPE services being merged with other services/ Northern split back into "east" and "west" etc)

 

[Class172]

They are a bit "jack of all trades" DMUs, without actually having any one thing that they are *best* at. There are a lot of routes that they use with other operators where they are wasted (like the Chase line north of Walsall).

Hence starting this thread as I suspect that Northern* will get some 170s (even if only the two coach TPE examples) once the planned electrifications are completed at the end of the decade, but I really can't work out where they'd be best used.

(* - by which I mean "the services currently run by the Northern franchise - I appreciate that there may be a change in the franchise map such as TPE services being merged with other services/ Northern split back into "east" and "west" etc)

They actually work quite well on the Hereford Line.