Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

507 001

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Rumours circling that the 323s are now staying at Northern and will be joined by the WM fleet too....
 
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DanNCL

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Rumours circling that the 323s are now staying at Northern and will be joined by the WM fleet too....
That would be good. The 323s are much better than the 319s.

Would that leave much work for the 319s, even if all the Manchester/Blackpool trains became 6 cars?
If Northern are going to keep the 323s then I could see most if not all of the 319s going for scrap.
 

507 001

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It all kinda makes sense if you think about it.

Porterbrook are happy having had their fingers burnt bY WMT and it would explain why the job to finish the livery on the 319s has been so slow..... as much as I like the 319s, the prospect of 323s across the Chat Moss is quite exciting to me.
 

Starmill

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Can I ask the source of the rumours?
There are various things that could make that true. Now that we know that Porterbrook were unable to secure long term lease of the 323s at WMT, they are likely to be disposed towards offering Northern an extension, should they want one. They may also be able to offer much more attractive (taking into account their superior performance and on-train environment and the issue of lease payments) terms than what a 319 does as far as the small number of EMU 319s in the long-term fleet goes, but that is further in the future.

I will wait with great interest to see what happens.
 

IanXC

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In terms of numbers the fleets look as follows:

Class 319
Northern currently appear to have 24 sets destined to remain EMU, plus 8 (or is it now 11) sets to be converted to 769s.

Class 323
Northern 17 (currently off lease December 2018)
West Midlands Trains 26 (due to leave in 2020 when new stock arrives?)

So it would seem the current plan has 24 319 sets (96 vehicles), compared to 17 323 sets (51 vehicles) and 26 323 sets (78 vehicles).

Doesn't seem obvious how the numbers work out, but given there is also presumably some change in the agreed fleet to come from the Windermere trial units its probably more complicated!
 

LNW-GW Joint

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I thought the number of 319s at Northern would reduce once the full 331 fleet was in service?
Northern has no need for more EMUs once the wires reach Blackpool/Wigan/Stalybridge (and the 769s work).
Exchanging 319s for 323s doesn't help capacity, unless you double them up (ie double the leasing cost).
Assuming 319s are leased for the rest of the current franchise, what incentive is there to swap them for 323s?
The DfT doesn't go round approving more stock for a franchise without a good business case.
 

47802

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I don't see what Northern would do with so many extra units especially when electrification is slightly less than originally planned. I guess you could double them up on some routes but given how tight the Northern franchise is financially? I think Porterbrook would also have to offer them an extremely good deal to ditch the 319's.

I also think the idea that Porterbrook will eventually need all 319's they can get for 769 conversion looks extremely fanciful given the current progress of that project.

I guess I could come up with a rumour that Northern will be getting more 195's due to problems with the 769 project, told to me by Northern member of staff and see how far that goes.
 
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YorkshireBear

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I don't see what Northern would do with so many extra units especially when electrification is slightly less than originally planned. I guess you could double them up on some routes but given how tight the Northern franchise is financially? I think Porterbrook would also have to offer them an extremely good deal to ditch the 319's.

I also think the idea that Porterbrook will eventually need all 319's they can get for 769 conversion looks extremely fanciful given the current progress of that project.
I think it will certainly be a swap for the 319s not additional.
 

WatcherZero

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Depends how many of the leases are already signed, 323 do offer some strengthening options that 319 don't that could see some reshuffling, removing a couple more diesels that might otherwise have operated under wires, maybe if the price is right having a slightly higher maintenance allowance than would otherwise have been possible with new stock.
 

43096

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I rather think everyone is running ahead of themselves. Rumour is from train crew - there are plenty of those fly around and are completely groundless. It’s not like they know what is happening within fleet management, is it? I’d wait for something more definite from an authoritative source.
 

507 001

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I rather think everyone is running ahead of themselves. Rumour is from train crew - there are plenty of those fly around and are completely groundless. It’s not like they know what is happening within fleet management, is it? I’d wait for something more definite from an authoritative source.
I believe the information was given to the crew that I’ve spoken to by their managers, I.e. conductor/driver managers.
 

aformeruser

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I also think the idea that Porterbrook will eventually need all 319's they can get for 769 conversion looks extremely fanciful given the current progress of that project.
The question would perhaps be would they throw in the towel with regards to 769s or look at some other dual powered option?

I guess I could come up with a rumour that Northern will be getting more 195's due to problems with the 769 project, told to me by Northern member of staff and see how far that goes.
The difference would be additional 195s don't exist, the 323s do exist and are newer, more reliable and cheaper to run than the 319s. Porterbrook also have to find new homes for the 350/2s as well so maybe they've offered Northern a good deal on replacing 319s with a greater number of 323s?
 

samuelmorris

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Will be an interesting one to keep an eye on, it would be a shame for the 323s to go to waste, but by the same token, as others have said, they'd have to displace the 319s otherwise there'd be no room for them.
 

Roast Veg

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What if some of them are to go to the North East? It would allow refurbs for the 333s to start (though 323 prm is a priority) and allow some of the 321s and 322s to retire early.
 

aformeruser

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What if some of them are to go to the North East? It would allow refurbs for the 333s to start (though 323 prm is a priority) and allow some of the 321s and 322s to retire early.
I presume you mean Yorkshire not the North East. 323s won't be freed up until 331s enter service and by the time the WMT 323s are freed up Northern should have received all their 331s.

Although, maybe using a few in the North East i.e. Newcastle area could be a viable idea?
 

YorkshireBear

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I think the recent rolling stock strategy across the industry is likely to throw up hundreds of these rumours as people try to find homes for several classes of train.

The thing about this rumour is it makes sense, the class 323s are popular with commuters and the class 319s have performance impacts on the routes they serve. Doesn't mean it is true but there is certainly an element of logic about it.
 

swt_passenger

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I presume you mean Yorkshire not the North East. 323s won't be freed up until 331s enter service and by the time the WMT 323s are freed up Northern should have received all their 331s.

Although, maybe using a few in the North East i.e. Newcastle area could be a viable idea?
There are no suitable pure EMU services in the Newcastle area though. ECML, Durham coast and Carlisle trains all interwork.
 

aformeruser

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I think the recent rolling stock strategy across the industry is likely to throw up hundreds of these rumours as people try to find homes for several classes of train.

The thing about this rumour is it makes sense, the class 323s are popular with commuters and the class 319s have performance impacts on the routes they serve. Doesn't mean it is true but there is certainly an element of logic about it.
Another thing to note is Porterbrook are unlikely to find an operator in the South East or London who wants 3 car EMUs with 23m carriages which can only run off OHEs. Finding an operator who wants 4 car EMUs with 20m carriages which can be made to run off third rail as well as OHEs should be much easier. I doubt it would be a massive job to reinstate 3rd rail equipment on the 319s which have had it removed or to add it to the 350/2s (which Porterbrook will also have off-lease.)
 

aformeruser

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There are no suitable pure EMU services in the Newcastle area though. ECML, Durham coast and Carlisle trains all interwork.
While I accept that's currently the case I would expect someone at Northern will review service patterns given the delays and cancellations to wiring schemes and plenty of EMUs being available.
 

Anvil1984

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While I accept that's currently the case I would expect someone at Northern will review service patterns given the delays and cancellations to wiring schemes and plenty of EMUs being available.
For the benefit of 1 maybe 2 potential EMU diagrams in the North East (splitting the Metrocentre to Morpeth service at Newcastle) I doubt they think it will be worth it that much
 

swt_passenger

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While I accept that's currently the case I would expect someone at Northern will review service patterns given the delays and cancellations to wiring schemes and plenty of EMUs being available.
The only wired route is Newcastle, Morpeth, Chathill. Is it worth doing for maybe two units max? Bit of a drop in Noethern’s ocean...
 

Anvil1984

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The only wired route is Newcastle, Morpeth, Chathill. Is it worth doing for maybe two units max? Bit of a drop in Noethern’s ocean...
Also the 3 peak morning services if you split the Saltburn to Newcastle via ECML services at Darlo BUT they use those services to rotate units off Bishop to Saltburn so they can get to Heaton next night. Still doesn't warrant a EMU though
 

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