Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

[507021]

On Twitter, Richard Clinnick of Rail magazine has insisted that only 17 of the 26 West Midlands 323s are due for Northern, at least for now. He claims that Northern "would like" all 26.

I can't see any reason for all 26 to not go to Northern, other than a lack of available work for them. Surely Porterbrook would rather have the future of the entire class secured?

I can't either, particularly as I don't think it'd be very easy for Porterbrook to find a home for what would be a micro fleet of nine 323s.

 

[hwl]

On Twitter, Richard Clinnick of Rail magazine has insisted that only 17 of the 26 West Midlands 323s are due for Northern, at least for now. He claims that Northern "would like" all 26.

I can't see any reason for all 26 to not go to Northern, other than a lack of available work for them. Surely Porterbrook would rather have the future of the entire class secured?

9 units for doubling up should be hard to find work for.

 

[keith1879]

On Twitter, Richard Clinnick of Rail magazine has insisted that only 17 of the 26 West Midlands 323s are due for Northern, at least for now. He claims that Northern "would like" all 26.

I can't see any reason for all 26 to not go to Northern, other than a lack of available work for them. Surely Porterbrook would rather have the future of the entire class secured?

I would have thought that a lack of available work is the best reason possible. Personally I am amazed that Northern are going to take on extra sets when it is generally believed that they are struggling financially. One for one replacement of the 319s makes sense if the 319s are so unreliable (and there seem to be planty of people in the know to back that up) but I really can't see them doubling up 3 cars to 6 with all the extra costs. But like others have said ....I don't believe Rail unless I see the evidence with my own eyes.

 

[hwl]

I would have thought that a lack of available work is the best reason possible. Personally I am amazed that Northern are going to take on extra sets when it is generally believed that they are struggling financially. One for one replacement of the 319s makes sense if the 319s are so unreliable (and there seem to be plenty of people in the know to back that up) but I really can't see them doubling up 3 cars to 6 with all the extra costs. But like others have said ....I don't believe Rail unless I see the evidence with my own eyes.

Doubled up 323 track access charge are only 20% more than 1x 319 despite being 70+% longer so a good way to add capacity?
A more uniform fleet with better performance will presumably off some timetabling and diagramming advantages, worth a unit of 2?
We don't know what the Porterbrook leasing charges are so it migh make sens overall

With Transpennine upgrade showing odd signs of possible progress would some extras to extend services from Victoria eastwards to Stalybridge in 2-3 years make sense?

 

[jonesy3001]

why would one magazine say northern are getting all 26 then another say it's just 17 323s, somethings not right, unless we'll have to wait to see.

 

[js1000]

I would have thought that a lack of available work is the best reason possible. Personally I am amazed that Northern are going to take on extra sets when it is generally believed that they are struggling financially. One for one replacement of the 319s makes sense if the 319s are so unreliable (and there seem to be planty of people in the know to back that up) but I really can't see them doubling up 3 cars to 6 with all the extra costs. But like others have said ....I don't believe Rail unless I see the evidence with my own eyes.

Is it really amazing though? Northern are legally obligated under the franchise agreement to operate approximately 40 or so 319/323s - as well as the new 331s.

Northern already have 17 323s. 27 319s will be replaced with 26 323s. It's pretty much like for like. There is nothing above and beyond what is in the franchise agreement.

Porterbrook would have offered generous terms to take the 323s as there are no other suitors and taking the 319s back will allow for potential future 769 conversions and/or scrapping some units for spares as they are pretty much life-expired.

Likewise the maintenance and staff training costs for Northern will be lower with just the 323s as opposed to the 323s AND 319s. Part of Northern's subsidy problem is basket case routes but a poor rolling stock strategy with too many different classes.

 

[td97]

Could running a Victoria - Bolton work interlinking with the Preston - Victoria? It would still give Kearsley, Farnworth and Moses Gate 2 trains per hour using the additional 323s once received

Could run the Stalybridge shuttle through to Bolton, whenever it gets wired. Probably better than introducing a westbound terminating service at Victoria.

There isn't a turnaround siding at the east end of Victoria, the line is electrified up to Bromley Street Jn but there is no useful move eastwards that wouldn't still cause conflict with other movements to/from Victoria.

Thanks for the clarification. Somehow got my Metrolink and NR sidings mixed up.

 

[Llama]

Yes there's only a turnback siding out the west end of Vic, and that's only accessible from 3 & 4. It would be massively helpful to have one out the east end too though, accessible from 5 & 6.

 

[edwin_m]

On Twitter, Richard Clinnick of Rail magazine has insisted that only 17 of the 26 West Midlands 323s are due for Northern, at least for now. He claims that Northern "would like" all 26.

I can't see any reason for all 26 to not go to Northern, other than a lack of available work for them. Surely Porterbrook would rather have the future of the entire class secured?

Someone would have to pay for them. That wouldn't be Northern - they'd have to persuade some level of government to give them some more money.

 

[RealTrains07]

Stoke to Manchester: will that still be 323 run or will it be 331 run as originally planned?

 

[Chester1]

Is it really amazing though? Northern are legally obligated under the franchise agreement to operate approximately 40 or so 319/323s - as well as the new 331s.

Northern already have 17 323s. 27 319s will be replaced with 26 323s. It's pretty much like for like. There is nothing above and beyond what is in the franchise agreement.

Porterbrook would have offered generous terms to take the 323s as there are no other suitors and taking the 319s back will allow for potential future 769 conversions and/or scrapping some units for spares as they are pretty much life-expired.

Likewise the maintenance and staff training costs for Northern will be lower with just the 323s as opposed to the 323s AND 319s. Part of Northern's subsidy problem is basket case routes but a poor rolling stock strategy with too many different classes.

Northern aren't required to keep any 323s and all were due to go off lease at the end of last year. The 17 units stayed to cover the delayed 331 roll out. If Clinnick is correct then Northern would be replacing 27 x 319s with 34 x 323s. That would a slight increase in seats. Blackpool-Hazel Grove would be the most obvious choice to double up and would require 4-5 extra units and slight alternations to stopping patterns.

 

[The Ham]

Typically TOC's costs are 1/3 rolling stock, 1/3 staff and 1/3 other (back office, money for profit, selling tickets, etc). (I forget where maintenance falls, however IIRC it's in other)

By taking on extra units which are mostly going to be run in pairs you increase the first, but relatively little in the other two. As such any extra tickets sold are probably split more along the lines of 50, 15, 25 between 3. Reducing the number of tickets sold before you cover the costs.

It's why the likes of SWR do so well as they have loads of trains but in comparison fewer staff (i.e. 1 driver & guard/~600 seats rather than 1 driver & guard/~100 seats).

 

[ic31420]

Could run the Stalybridge shuttle through to Bolton, whenever it gets wired. Probably better than introducing a westbound terminating service at Victoria.

Thanks for the clarification. Somehow got my Metrolink and NR sidings mixed up.

Apparently the 323s can't run via Bolton due to E.M. emissions being outside the limits for the track circuit equipment on the line.

 

[td97]

Apparently the 323s can't run via Bolton due to E.M. emissions being outside the limits for the track circuit equipment on the line.

A very reliable forum source thinks otherwise
https://www.railforums.co.uk/posts/3940686/

The Network Rail Summary of Rolling Stock / Infrastructure Compatibility certificate for Class 323 operation on the Bolton route was signed off on 8th February.
"Class 323 vehicles are compatible for interim service operation, in both directions, on the following routes:
MVE1 Deal Street Jn - Bolton West Jn
MVE2 Bolton West Jn - Euxton Jn
OLW Ordsall Lane Jn - Windsor Bridge South Jn"
The interim certificate is valid until 12th July when it will either be extended or be replaced by a series service version.

The interim service certificate for Class 323 operation on the Chat Moss route, Liverpool - Preston via St Helens and the Blackpool route was issued on 16th January and is valid to 22nd November.

Class 323s are now approved for operation by Network Rail on all north-west electrified routes. I am sure they will be seen more frequently on the new routes once the May timetable is introduced.

 

[1VWC]

Northern ran alcohol free dry trains as double 323s on the last Manchester - Stoke services on Saturdays in December 2017. These presumably would've called at Kidsgrove.

6 car is fine at Kidsgrove, you just have to pull up past the signal to the end of the platform.
They may have been dry trains but the punters certainly weren’t!

 

[RealTrains07]

6 car is fine at Kidsgrove, you just have to pull up past the signal to the end of the platform.
They may have been dry trains but the punters certainly weren’t!

You think it might be likely for a 6 car regular service on stoke - manchester line if not run by 331s

 

[scrapy]

You think it might be likely for a 6 car regular service on stoke - manchester line if not run by 331s

Only issue is that they can't use the bay platform at Stoke so have to terminate in a through platform run into reversing sidings and back out into a through platform which isn't possible on current timings due to conflicts with other services. The last train on a Saturday runs straight back empty stock so isn't as much of an issue.

 

[RealTrains07]

Only issue is that they can't use the bay platform at Stoke so have to terminate in a through platform run into reversing sidings and back out into a through platform which isn't possible on current timings due to conflicts with other services. The last train on a Saturday runs straight back empty stock so isn't as much of an issue.

Also first train of the day runs from platform 2 stoke to blackpool which is northern so that isn’t an issue either

 

[Xenophon PCDGS]

What is the most likely thing in terms of the Class 323 unit mechanical items that would need the closest attention in refurbishment terms at their current age?

 

[js1000]

What is the most likely thing in terms of the Class 323 unit mechanical items that would need the closest attention in refurbishment terms at their current age?

I know the Northern ones received a mechanical overhaul in 2013, with a further overhaul of both Northern and LM units between 2015 and 2017. Both may be seen as 'mid-life maintenance' schemes.

 

[43096]

What is the most likely thing in terms of the Class 323 unit mechanical items that would need the closest attention in refurbishment terms at their current age?

Nothing. They are under normal maintenance cycles. They have all had new IGBT traction systems in the last few years.

 

[centraltrains]

9 units for doubling up should be hard to find work for.

Could it be a sign the West Midlands may need to keep some 323s? WMR are very keen on saying the new trains will allow only *most* trains on the Cross City to be 6 coaches. The order of 36 perhaps seems a bit small to cover this, and the other services they do, being only a net increase of 10.

 

[6026KingJohn]

Could it be a sign the West Midlands may need to keep some 323s? WMR are very keen on saying the new trains will allow only *most* trains on the Cross City to be 6 coaches. The order of 36 perhaps seems a bit small to cover this, and the other services they do, being only a net increase of 10.

The current Cross-City timetable requires 18 units to provide 1 x 3 car on each service. 4 other sets are used to strengthen rush hour trains to 6 coaches. 2 units are used on Wolverhampton - Walsall (3 car formation) this leaves one spare & one maintenance (out of 26). 36 sets will therefore allow most Cross-City trains to be 6 coach, especially if Wolverhampton-Walsall change to 350s (unlikely I know). Of course, if the order were increased to 40...

 

[LOL The Irony]

The current Cross-City timetable requires 18 units to provide 1 x 3 car on each service. 4 other sets are used to strengthen rush hour trains to 6 coaches. 2 units are used on Wolverhampton - Walsall (3 car formation) this leaves one spare & one maintenance (out of 26). 36 sets will therefore allow most Cross-City trains to be 6 coach, especially if Wolverhampton-Walsall change to 350s (unlikely I know). Of course, if the order were increased to 40...

But at least all bar 2 or 3 diagrams will be 6 car.

 

[jonesy3001]

so if northern are getting 17 out of the 26 323s from WMT that would leave WMT with 9 sets, i would guess, but could be completely different;
323201- 209 for WMT (9)
210-222/240-243 to northern (17)
or depending on whats had the PRM mods.

 

[js1000]

so if northern are getting 17 out of the 26 323s from WMT that would leave WMT with 9 sets, i would guess, but could be completely different;
323201- 209 for WMT (9)
210-222/240-243 to northern (17)
or depending on whats had the PRM mods.

Seems operationally daft to retain a micro-fleet of 9 323s when you have 90+ EMUs on order - 36 of them Aventras for commuter routes.

 

[MarkWiles]

Won't the "main line" and "London Commuter" Aventras for LNW/WMT free up some more 350s for New Street locals? In theory the 3 car Birmingham area Aventras should be able to become dedicated to the Cross City.

Sorry, running the risk of a Mod intervention but I can't see any reason why Northern couldn't get all the WMT 323 fleet as by the time the Aventra fleet mix replaces 350s out of Euston (except on the Trent Valley) there should be enough 350s to cover the current non Cross City 323 diagrams I would have thought.

 

[driver_m]

Why is so much faith being put into Northern only getting 17 sets if this has come from RAIL magazine? Modern Railways has said 26 and I know which one i would trust more...

 

[LOL The Irony]

Why is so much faith being put into Northern only getting 17 sets if this has come from RAIL magazine? Modern Railways has said 26 and I know which one i would trust more...

We actually went over this on the previous page, so I don't know why it's still being brought up.

 

[jonesy3001]

Seems operationally daft to retain a micro-fleet of 9 323s when you have 90+ EMUs on order - 36 of them Aventras for commuter routes.

it was just a summary, but if they are all going to northern and rail mag have got it wrong, as in the words of my favourite yellow character;

WOOHOO!!!