Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

[thealexweb]

319s will be able to do 100mph on the Crewe line

Somewhere on here there is a post from a Northern driver claiming it took a 319 14 miles to achieve 100mph of a non-stop Manchester to Crewe training run...

Edit: Beaten to it...

 

[driver_m]

Richard Clinnick recently said Porterbrook have a plan for the future of 323s (no further details available yet) but don't for the 350/2s so if that's true a rumour about 350/2s going to Northern is less likely to be true.

It was a joke suggestion.

 

[D365]

It was a joke suggestion.

Not outlandish enough to be a joke here, you didn't mention 442s or 373s

 

[driver_m]

Not outlandish enough to be a joke here, you didn't mention 442s or 373s

Oh come on, everyone knows we're getting the plastic pigs on Holyheads once the Voyagers go back to XC. Dragged by bi mode 87s .

 

[The Ham]

Oh come on, everyone knows we're getting the plastic pigs on Holyheads once the Voyagers go back to XC. Dragged by bi mode 87s .

Only those not in use by SWR; or are we looking at a new build of 442 for the above?

If so, it's about time we got some more. As we've got too many places that need 442's for all the ideas we have for them.

 

[Bantamzen]

Given Northern will have more EMUs if they finish up with all the 323s instead of 319s it's possible which services get the 331s (mix of 3 and 4 car) could be revised. Maybe some workings will be 6 car 323s instead of 4 car 331s leaving 4 car 331s for services which need more than 3 cars but which can't take 6.

While it wouldn't be popular with certain passengers I think it would make sense for West Yorkshire to get 323s instead of 331s, given the Yorkshire electric routes are all commuter stopping services and the North West electric routes will be a mix of stoppers and regional express services.

It might make sense if only 331s where planned on WY routes to give a uniform stock, but WY services will still see the 16 333s around so there is still going to be a mixture of stock. So why move the 323s across when the NW has drivers signed for them, and the depot used to handling them, when they can continue to operate commuter services, with the 331s primarily used for more regional services?

 

[pemma]

There won't be any West Yorkshire regional or long distance electric services though and if Northern get more 323s then more crews will have to learn them, whichever side of the Pennines they are based. Also there won't be as many 4 car 331s as 4 car 333s so that would likely result in 3 car 331s instead of 4 car 333s on some services.

 

[MatthewRead]

Oh come on, everyone knows we're getting the plastic pigs on Holyheads once the Voyagers go back to XC. Dragged by bi mode 87s .

No Alliance Rail have their eyes on them for the new Waterloo-Southampton service provided it get the go ahead from the ORR.

 

[notlob.divad]

The only reason I would give the 323s to northern rumour any credence at this time, is that one is known to have gone to Allerton for training. I don't see why you would start training crew on a stock that you are getting rid of in 9 months. For that same reason, if they are to stay, in lieu of, or as well as 319, I think they would stay on the NW electrified routes.

 

[Domh245]

The only reason I would give the 323s to northern rumour any credence at this time, is that one is known to have gone to Allerton for training. I don't see why you would start training crew on a stock that you are getting rid of in 9 months. For that same reason, if they are to stay, in lieu of, or as well as 319, I think they would stay on the NW electrified routes.

The 323 moving to Allerton, and spreading of 323s onto routes beyond those they already operate has been discussed before and doesn't mean that they are staying long term. Also do remember that the 331s are only starting to be introduced in 9 months, the last one isn't supposed to enter service until a year after that, so there is plenty of time for a "return on investment" for training up other depots on them.

 

[greyman42]

Morpeth services generally run to/from Metro Centre so a bit of extra wiring could enable that service to go electric. The better acceleration would certainly be handy on the ECML, which is getting more fast trains, including an hourly TPE to Edinburgh.

I see your point but if it was as easy as a "bit of extra wiring" then Colton jc. to Neville Hill would be wired.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

I think having a small number of them in the North East (maybe 10?) would be a good idea. I think there was a proposal to extend the Newcastle - Morpeth service to Berwick. It would be silly to use DMUs on that simply so that those services can extend to the Metro Centre. The Newcastle - Metro Centre section of that journey is used by very few people anyway, so it wouldn't be much of in issue if the service was cut back to Newcastle.

Nexus also wanted (not sure if they still do or not) the electrification on the Newcastle - Sunderland route converted to 25kV once the new Metro fleet has entered service. In the event that the Newcastle - Sunderland route is converted to 25kV that would be another route in the North East that 323s could be used on.


323s have 23m bodyshells, whereas the 319s have 20m bodyshells. Therefore a 3-car 323 is only 11 metres shorter than a 4-car 319. As the extra gangway connection on the 319s takes up some of that extra space that can't be used for more seats, the capacity difference between a 3-car 323 and a 4-car 319 is very small.

Did I not see some reference to more services towards Chester le Street and Durham? If so, one would argue an hourly service from Durham (trains reversing at Tursdale) to Morpeth (trains reversing in the Down Loop) would be a good use of something like a 323. Otherwise it's true to say you may as well not bother.

But I personally look at the use of 323s and say "Better than a 319" and they are. Some services on Northern Connect or whatever they call it could use them. The Macclesfield service I think goes to Southport - send it to Preston / Blackpool instead? Easy enough (roughly) to do.

 

[td97]

But I personally look at the use of 323s and say "Better than a 319" and they are. Some services on Northern Connect or whatever they call it could use them. The Macclesfield service I think goes to Southport - send it to Preston / Blackpool instead? Easy enough (roughly) to do.

The Macclesfield service is already supposed to go to Blackpool North once Bolton electrification is complete (but this route has been earmarked for 331's anyway). 323's cannot be used for Connect services because they have no A/C.

 

[Rail Blues]

The Macclesfield service is already supposed to go to Blackpool North once Bolton electrification is complete (but this route has been earmarked for 331's anyway). 323's cannot be used for Connect services because they have no A/C.

Plus the 3+2 seating hardly screams premium service!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Plus the 3+2 seating hardly screams premium service!

Networker seating, countrywide, is the only one I can fall asleep in. I'd happily take a 323 as a 'Premium' Connect train over a 158!

 

[Rail Blues]

Networker seating, countrywide, is the only one I can fall asleep in. I'd happily take a 323 as a 'Premium' Connect train over a 158!

Takes all sorts to make a world I guess. I like a 323 but the combination of the noise, rapid acceleration and cramped 3 across seating makes it the least condusive environment for sleep and I can sleep on a washing line.

 

[61653 HTAFC]

Plus the 3+2 seating hardly screams premium service!

And as we all know, once seating is installed it is permanent and can under no circumstances be replaced or reconfigured!

Doesn't help with the A/C issue, but I think the poster who suggested 323s for Connect was assuming a high-quality refurbishment.

 

[Rail Blues]

And as we all know, once seating is installed it is permanent and can under no circumstances be replaced or reconfigured!

Doesn't help with the A/C issue, but I think the poster who suggested 323s for Connect was assuming a high-quality refurbishment.

Converting what is essentially commuter stock with a layout to match and lacking in A/C into something suited to running regional expresses would be prohibitively and needlessly expensive.

 

[Bevan Price]

I have a handy list.

Newton-Le-Willows 106m/108m
Earlestown 145m/121m
St Helens Junction 118m/120m
Lea Green 107m/107m
Rainhill 179m/134m
Whiston 107m/107m
Huyton 154/153m
Roby 117m/153m
Broad Green 109m/117m
Wavertree 96m/96m

The only one of these stations that will take a 6*23m service is Huyton, which is possibly why the planned Northern Connect will stop there, if 6 car 195s run through from the Calder Valley.

Could those be "old" values for Huyton ? Some platforms were shortened at the same time as the 4 tracking rebuild. And there was a length reduction at the Liverpool end of Roby station.

 

[craigybagel]

It was recently claimed by a driver doing an ECS working that using the driving technique instructed he only got to 100mph near Chelford when doing an ECS from Crewe to Manchester. If that's the case I can't see 319s getting to 100mph on any Northern stopping services.



The franchise agreement makes reference to 5 x 319s going off-lease at the same time as the 321s and 322s but with proposed 769 conversions, a possibility Northern get fewer Sprinters than planned and delays to wiring, how knows exactly what will be the case in 2020.

Somewhere on here there is a post from a Northern driver claiming it took a 319 14 miles to achieve 100mph of a non-stop Manchester to Crewe training run...

Edit: Beaten to it...

And as I pointed out at the time, even a diesel powered 175 will normally hit 100 round about Holmes Chapel, even after a running brake test. On Northern strike days, they can still hit the ton, albeit only briefly, between the station stops at Holmes Chapel and Alderley Edge - so I do find this supposed drivers claim very hard to believe.

 

[lejog]

Could those be "old" values for Huyton ? Some platforms were shortened at the same time as the 4 tracking rebuild. And there was a length reduction at the Liverpool end of Roby station.

They're the values from the Sectional Appendix, how up to date that is I don't know.

 

[pemma]

And as I pointed out at the time, even a diesel powered 175 will normally hit 100 round about Holmes Chapel, even after a running brake test. On Northern strike days, they can still hit the ton, albeit only briefly, between the station stops at Holmes Chapel and Alderley Edge - so I do find this supposed drivers claim very hard to believe.

I'm sure someone claimed that 319s take a very long time to get between around 75mph and 100mph, which was one reason why Porterbrook proposed re-engineering them to make them better for all-stops services and losing the ability to go above 75mph in the process.

 

[50032]

And as I pointed out at the time, even a diesel powered 175 will normally hit 100 round about Holmes Chapel, even after a running brake test. On Northern strike days, they can still hit the ton, albeit only briefly, between the station stops at Holmes Chapel and Alderley Edge - so I do find this supposed drivers claim very hard to believe.

A 319 now runs ECS between Crewe and Chelford Loop around 9am every weekday morning; from speaking to drivers who have driven it, the best they can manage is around 92mph. What's so hard to believe?

 

[Chester1]

The only reason I would give the 323s to northern rumour any credence at this time, is that one is known to have gone to Allerton for training. I don't see why you would start training crew on a stock that you are getting rid of in 9 months. For that same reason, if they are to stay, in lieu of, or as well as 319, I think they would stay on the NW electrified routes.

Thats interesting. It would be a waste of resources for only 9 months further use.

Converting what is essentially commuter stock with a layout to match and lacking in A/C into something suited to running regional expresses would be prohibitively and needlessly expensive.

It would be prohibitively expense to upgrade to Northern Connect standard but probably not to make PRM-TSI compliant, 2+2 seating, some tables and some USB ports. Northern should have some EMUs that are between 319s and 331s in terms of speed and comfort.

 

[pemma]

Thats interesting. It would be a waste of resources for only 9 months further use.

Note that Northern would have planned to make changes at the December 2017 timetable change and there would likely be some constraints on which services can be 319 or 323 operated due to paths and platform lengths.

It would be prohibitively expense to upgrade to Northern Connect standard but probably not to make PRM-TSI compliant, 2+2 seating, some tables and some USB ports. Northern should have some EMUs that are between 319s and 331s in terms of speed and comfort.

333s would probably have been the best to convert to the 'in between' units but due to a contractual obligation they have to remain in West Yorkshire until at least mid-2020.

 

[craigybagel]

I'm sure someone claimed that 319s take a very long time to get between around 75mph and 100mph, which was one reason why Porterbrook proposed re-engineering them to make them better for all-stops services and losing the ability to go above 75mph in the process.

A 319 now runs ECS between Crewe and Chelford Loop around 9am every weekday morning; from speaking to drivers who have driven it, the best they can manage is around 92mph. What's so hard to believe?

If several drivers are saying it then ok, maybe there is something to it. I just found it difficult to believe because 319s have been around for a long time, and you didn't hear lots of reports from Thameslink about them struggling to hit 100. The same with all of the other MKIII based emu's from that era - that their acceleration isn't as good as modem units was never in doubt, but that after 14 miles they still aren't capable of hitting their top speed, that sounds like the kind of thing that would have been more readily known about. And as I pointed out, this is on a section of track where a DMU that isn't especially known for its performance has no issues at all hitting that same speed. It all seems very odd.

 

[pemma]

If several drivers are saying it then ok, maybe there is something to it. I just found it difficult to believe because 319s have been around for a long time, and you didn't hear lots of reports from Thameslink about them struggling to hit 100. The same with all of the other MKIII based emu's from that era - that their acceleration isn't as good as modem units was never in doubt, but that after 14 miles they still aren't capable of hitting their top speed, that sounds like the kind of thing that would have been more readily known about. And as I pointed out, this is on a section of track where a DMU that isn't especially known for its performance has no issues at all hitting that same speed. It all seems very odd.

Did Thameslink drivers have to adopt the same driving technique or has the special driving technique to reduce units failing only come about since they left Thameslink?

 

[edwin_m]

Browsing the Sectional Appendix this morning I was surprised to see the 323s are not allowed on various routes including Edge Hill to Manchester via Chat Moss and Edge Hill to Preston. I don't know if that's just because nobody has needed them enough to do the paperwork or there is a genuine incompatibility.

 

[pemma]

Browsing the Sectional Appendix this morning I was surprised to see the 323s are not allowed on various routes including Edge Hill to Manchester via Chat Moss and Edge Hill to Preston. I don't know if that's just because nobody has needed them enough to do the paperwork or there is a genuine incompatibility.

I imagine it's a paperwork issue, there was never any plan to use 323s on Chat Moss under old Northern so they probably only tried to get the 319s cleared.

 

[Chester1]

Browsing the Sectional Appendix this morning I was surprised to see the 323s are not allowed on various routes including Edge Hill to Manchester via Chat Moss and Edge Hill to Preston. I don't know if that's just because nobody has needed them enough to do the paperwork or there is a genuine incompatibility.

Chat Moss route must be paperwork only because it will soon be used by 802s which are bigger. It will be interesting to see how Northern and Porterbrook resolve the 319, 323 and 769 situation. Its looking likely that another alteration will be made.