Northern 323s refurbishment and cascade

[43096]

With only one motored carriage they tend to get wheelslip if you apply too much power before friction of the other wheels has been overcome.

Do you know what wheelslip actually is?

 

[WatcherZero]

Wheels spinning faster than the vehicle is moving. The same as doing a burnout in a car.

 

[Geeves]

First 323 over the Chat Moss here seen pausing at Earlestown for a photo stop. Original photo by B.Styles posted on the Manchester railways group on FB. Hoping it becomes a common sight and the 319s less so.

 

[Chester1]

Have I missed something in regards to numbers? 17 are with Northern and due to go off lease in December and WMT have 26. Northern have 24 x 319. Are there enough future EMU services that don't need to be Northern Connect spec for all 43 x 323s? Would Northern be getting rid of some of the 321/322/333s too? I am not convinced anyone will want the 319s, there has been little interest in the ones already off lease.

 

[D365]

The only BR EMUs that Northern has planned to retain are the 319s. All 333s will be remaining.

 

[Chester1]

The only BR EMUs that Northern has planned to retain are the 319s. All 333s will be remaining.

Its pretty doubtful that Northern will end up with all 323s then!

 

[50032]

Its pretty doubtful that Northern will end up with all 323s then!

It's all rumour so far (6 pages worth). Enjoy them while you can because once 331s enter service they'll be redundant.
Ps. they're not PRM compliant either.

 

[Chester1]

It's all rumour so far (6 pages worth). Enjoy them while you can because once 331s enter service they'll be redundant.
Ps. they're not PRM compliant either.

For the journeys I do e.g. Stockport to Piccadilly switching to 319s and 331s won't change journey time by a meaningful amount and I will welcome the slight increase in seating. Its a shame Porterbrook insisted on reserving the 323s for the West Midlands franchise, they are better than the 319s. I can't see who would want the 319s. Off lease EMUs are a out to become very common and new build EMUs are currently cheap. If the 769 project had been a big success then it would have made sense to allocate all 319s for conversion but even the 13 units on order are starting to look doubtful. I can see some 323s staying upto a year longer to cover 319s going for upgrades and if there are any delays on delivery of the 331s but they seem to be heading towards conversion into razor blades in 2020.

 

[pemma]

For the journeys I do e.g. Stockport to Piccadilly switching to 319s and 331s won't change journey time by a meaningful amount and I will welcome the slight increase in seating. Its a shame Porterbrook insisted on reserving the 323s for the West Midlands franchise, they are better than the 319s. I can't see who would want the 319s. Off lease EMUs are a out to become very common and new build EMUs are currently cheap. If the 769 project had been a big success then it would have made sense to allocate all 319s for conversion but even the 13 units on order are starting to look doubtful. I can see some 323s staying upto a year longer to cover 319s going for upgrades and if there are any delays on delivery of the 331s but they seem to be heading towards conversion into razor blades in 2020.

That might be partly why Porterbrook prevented the Northern bidders from using 323s long term. The Northern franchise needed something better than 319s or 323s for the Regional Express/Northern Connect services, then as they probably wouldn't have 3 different EMUs in the North West the 319s may well have been surplus to requirements.

Had GWR not secured 365s and then not required them, maybe the 365s would have headed to Northern?

 

[Class 170101]

so it seems unlikely that there will be a reduction from 4-car 319 to 3-car 323, especially as they seem to be pressing ahead with improvements like new seat covers etc. on the 319 fleet.

But as I understand it a pair of Class 323s will fit on most of the platforms unlike a pair of Class 319s?

 

[The_Engineer]

Could it be that the DfT are anxious to ensure that newer units coming off lease are gainfully employed (especially if recently upgraded like Class 323), and older trains go to scrap instead? The press will have a field day if newer trains go to storage or scrap whilst older trains carry on in service. The DfT doesn't like bad press; the proliferation of new train fleets under recent franchise awards has really scuppered their earlier cascade plans!

I regard Class 313 to 322 in AC units all vulnerable to withdrawal. Northern could get Class 350/2, 360 or 365 when off lease, but Class 323 makes more sense as they already operate them. Class 350/2 ex-LNW however could be interesting, and could be maintained at the TPE/Siemens Ardwick depot.

 

[LOL The Irony]

If we need new units in a few years, 707's are the likely option

 

[158756]

That might be partly why Porterbrook prevented the Northern bidders from using 323s long term. The Northern franchise needed something better than 319s or 323s for the Regional Express/Northern Connect services, then as they probably wouldn't have 3 different EMUs in the North West the 319s may well have been surplus to requirements.

Had GWR not secured 365s and then not required them, maybe the 365s would have headed to Northern?

As it's turned out though, I don't think it makes much difference to Porterbrook whether they offered Northern 323s or 319s. Both just as unwanted as electrics as each other. Indeed as it currently stands the 323s look higher in the queue for Booths.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Could it be that the DfT are anxious to ensure that newer units coming off lease are gainfully employed (especially if recently upgraded like Class 323), and older trains go to scrap instead? The press will have a field day if newer trains go to storage or scrap whilst older trains carry on in service. The DfT doesn't like bad press; the proliferation of new train fleets under recent franchise awards has really scuppered their earlier cascade plans!
I regard Class 313 to 322 in AC units all vulnerable to withdrawal. Northern could get Class 350/2, 360 or 365 when off lease, but Class 323 makes more sense as they already operate them. Class 350/2 ex-LNW however could be interesting, and could be maintained at the TPE/Siemens Ardwick depot.

The DfT is in a phase of leaving rolling stock plans to the TOCs, unless it's a strategic order like IEP, Thameslink or HS2.
The risk of idle stock then lies with the TOC/ROSCO.

 

[pemma]

If we need new units in a few years, 707's are the likely option

It would be easy for 707s to find a new home in London and the South East, while finding a suitable home for 323s down there would be very difficult.

 

[LOL The Irony]

It would be easy for 707s to find a new home in London and the South East, while finding a suitable home for 323s down there would be very difficult.

I was talking about more towards the end of the franchise and the pan recess is another plus.

 

[pemma]

I was talking about more towards the end of the franchise and the pan recess is another plus.

It's very unlikely they'll be any 707s off-lease towards the end of the Northern franchise.

 

[Class 170101]

The DfT is in a phase of leaving rolling stock plans to the TOCs, unless it's a strategic order like IEP, Thameslink or HS2.
The risk of idle stock then lies with the TOC/ROSCO.

Politically however to have people standing on trains whilst some are stored isn't exactly a vote winner.

 

[td97]

350/2's would be a good option in 2021. Already route cleared to Chat Moss/on WCML, and all 36 could rid Northern of their BR-era EMU stock.

 

[pemma]

350/2's would be a good option in 2021. Already route cleared to Chat Moss/on WCML, and all 36 could rid Northern of their BR-era EMU stock.

The 321s, 322s, 323s and 5 of the 319s are supposed to be replaced by 331s. 36 x 4 car EMUs instead sounds like too many especially if electrification schemes are being cut back rather than enhanced.

 

[LNW-GW Joint]

Politically however to have people standing on trains whilst some are stored isn't exactly a vote winner.

It will (or should) make the Roscos cut lease prices to get the stock in service (and scrap the rubbish).
The 350 scenario was that 350/1/3/4 all had usage guarantees with LM/WMT whereas the 350/2 fleet didn't, so were vulnerable to being undercut by new Aventras.
323s are different, with the Rosco declining to offer them to Northern in the longer term.
That plan backfired on them.

 

[td97]

The 321s, 322s, 323s and 5 of the 319s are supposed to be replaced by 331s. 36 x 4 car EMUs instead sounds like too many especially if electrification schemes are being cut back rather than enhanced.

It would be nice to think Lostock and Stalybridge could be wired within 3-4 years, especially as they haven't officially been cancelled, which would require further EMUs. Even if Northern didn't take the whole fleet of 36 350/2's, then they will still have 19 class 319s left (from what you've said) which could be replaced.

 

[pemma]

It would be nice to think Lostock and Stalybridge could be wired within 3-4 years, especially as they haven't officially been cancelled, which would require further EMUs. Even if Northern didn't take the whole fleet of 36 350/2's, then they will still have 19 class 319s left (from what you've said) which could be replaced.

Stalybridge, Lostock and Windermere were allowed for when Arriva decided on 27 x 319s long term alongside the new EMUs. EMUs converted to bi-mode are required if the wiring isn't done.

 

[47802]

Could it be that the DfT are anxious to ensure that newer units coming off lease are gainfully employed (especially if recently upgraded like Class 323), and older trains go to scrap instead? The press will have a field day if newer trains go to storage or scrap whilst older trains carry on in service. The DfT doesn't like bad press; the proliferation of new train fleets under recent franchise awards has really scuppered their earlier cascade plans!

I regard Class 313 to 322 in AC units all vulnerable to withdrawal. Northern could get Class 350/2, 360 or 365 when off lease, but Class 323 makes more sense as they already operate them. Class 350/2 ex-LNW however could be interesting, and could be maintained at the TPE/Siemens Ardwick depot.

I suspect relatively new trains stuck in a siding would be politically embarrassing and the 377/5 rather quickly found work elsewhere, however the 323's and 365's while they have life left in them they aren't exactly new being over 20 years old so I'm not so sure the Dft will loose as much sleep over them being stuck in a siding.

Arriva Northern costed a franchise based on 319's and they are probably perfectly good enough to last until the end of the franchise, so to change I expect Porterbrook or the Dft are going to need to offer Northern a very good reason to change to 323's or anything else.

 

[D365]

I suspect relatively new trains stuck in a siding would be politically embarrassing and the 377/5 rather quickly found work elsewhere, however the 323's and 365's while they have life left in them they aren't exactly new being over 20 years old so I'm not so sure the Dft will loose as much sleep over them being stuck in a siding.

Unless the trains are brand new or genuinely at the end of their lives, I don't imagine the general public is too concerned about rolling stock age. The idea that some MU fleets are reaching 30+ years in service is probably completely alien to some, bearing in mind how cars these days are almost treated as white goods.

 

[33021]

The leasing company only have themselves to blame if they didn’t offer the 323s to Northern bidders out of choice and then they are left with them until the next round of franchising. It can’t be assumed that West Mids would have taken these automatically.

 

[43096]

The leasing company only have themselves to blame if they didn’t offer the 323s to Northern bidders out of choice and then they are left with them until the next round of franchising. It can’t be assumed that West Mids would have taken these automatically.

Isn't hindsight a wonderful thing....

 

[Geeves]

Its nothing to do with hindsight its poor business purely on the backs of Porterbrook. If they had the acumen they should've noticed how the new Greater Anglia franchise bypassed the old guard leasing companies and went to a newly established (cheaper) rolling stock leasing company. It didnt take a rocket scientist to think Hmmm? Do we think the WM franchise might do the same? They had a year to look at it.

 

[Domh245]

Its nothing to do with hindsight its poor business purely on the backs of Porterbrook. If they had the acumen they should've noticed how the new Greater Anglia franchise bypassed the old guard leasing companies and went to a newly established (cheaper) rolling stock leasing company. It didnt take a rocket scientist to think Hmmm? Do we think the WM franchise might do the same? They had a year to look at it.

You mean the Greater Anglia franchise with wholesale fleet replacement that was awarded in August 2016, 8 months after the Northern franchise had been awarded (and far after any important decisions about what stock they were going to offer had been made)?

 

[43096]

You mean the Greater Anglia franchise with wholesale fleet replacement that was awarded in August 2016, 8 months after the Northern franchise had been awarded (and far after any important decisions about what stock they were going to offer had been made)?

Thanks - you've saved me from looking the dates up.

So, everything to do with hindsight.