Northern and Fare Evasion

[Class195]

I was travelling on a 142+150 on Northern the other day and decided to take the 150 over the 142 due to comfort.

What became apparent on leaving Leeds and calling at stations was that a lot of people were getting on the 142 which was leading with very few on the 150.

I spoke to the conductor about this and he said fare-dodging is rife when Northern throw two trains like this together to strengthen their services.

Would it be cost effective having a second conductor/revenue inspector to travel in the leading train ?

 

[sheff1]

Would it be cost effective having a second conductor/revenue inspector to travel in the leading train ?

Northern seem to think not. The behaviour you describe is commonplace and obviously well known to staff.

 

[Kite159]

Some services I've seen there is a 2nd member of staff in the leading unit, ready to catch those pay when challenged out.

Reminds me of a couple years ago when I was on the Blackpool South line where all the services were doubled units (mostly pairs of pacers or 150/1+142), all the "pay when challenged" headed to the front unit, only to run into a member of staff who soon pounced.

 

[johntea]

Out of Leeds probably not that much of an issue, 90% will have had to get through the ticket barrier first

I have seen an alternative tactic of staff alternatating between the units when at station stops in the past!

 

[Intermodal]

There is nothing to stop the Conductor working it from the front unit should he or she wish to do so. The rules were amended on this relatively recently.

 

[markymark2000]

I was travelling on a 142+150 on Northern the other day and decided to take the 150 over the 142 due to comfort.

What became apparent on leaving Leeds and calling at stations was that a lot of people were getting on the 142 which was leading with very few on the 150.

I spoke to the conductor about this and he said fare-dodging is rife when Northern throw two trains like this together to strengthen their services.

Would it be cost effective having a second conductor/revenue inspector to travel in the leading train ?

If this sort of thing is so common, why are not ordering trains with a gangway? almost all of the new trains which we are buying don't have any sort of gangway despite them potentially being coupled up for capacity. The new CAF units have no gang way and nor do the D-Trains.

 

[Killingworth]

I was travelling on a 142+150 on Northern the other day and decided to take the 150 over the 142 due to comfort.

What became apparent on leaving Leeds and calling at stations was that a lot of people were getting on the 142 which was leading with very few on the 150.

I spoke to the conductor about this and he said fare-dodging is rife when Northern throw two trains like this together to strengthen their services.

Would it be cost effective having a second conductor/revenue inspector to travel in the leading train ?

It's far too normal for Northern to operate twin units without connecting corridor. Working the 150/2s together would seem sensible, but they usually aren't.

For Leeds and Manchester there are barriers, but not at York and Sheffield. Walk on, walk off is all too easy without anyone checking.

A double unit leaves Piccadilly and heads for New Mills, the Hope Valley and Sheffield. It may be 2 x 142, a 142 + 150 or maybe a 150/1+ 150/2. At Piccadilly the rear unit is nearer the barrier so may fill better, but there's no barrier anywhere after that. At all intermediate stations most boarders will head for the front unit. The guard usually checks all tickets in the rear unit, but none get checked in the front. They may have them, but many will have covered themselves with a promise to pay that will remain unchecked and not exchanged for a ticket.

Northern have cottoned on a little, although not a lot. On random days there may be 2 or 3 revenue protection staff aboard until Dore & Totley where they leave. 20 minutes later the train comes back and they nab all those coming out of Sheffield without tickets.

I suspect ticket revenue has picked up a little since this tactic has been adopted. A lot are still evading payment with unexchanged promise to pay vouchers!

 

[LowLevel]

There is nothing to stop the Conductor working it from the front unit should he or she wish to do so. The rules were amended on this relatively recently.

I thought Northern were particularly strict on only dispatching from the rear half of any given train?

 

[Intermodal]

I thought Northern were particularly strict on only dispatching from the rear half of any given train?

You are permitted to dispatch from any door that isn't the front door.

 

[TUC]

It makes little difference because too many Northern guards don't bother to do any revenue protection work even with connecting carriages, or at best just run down the train asking 'does anyone need a ticket?' without bothering to wait for an answer.

Northern continues to fail to address this, and thrn wonder why the franchise is not achieving its revenue targets.

 

[skyhigh]

There is nothing to stop the Conductor working it from the front unit should he or she wish to do so. The rules were amended on this relatively recently.

I thought Northern were particularly strict on only dispatching from the rear half of any given train?

You are permitted to dispatch from any door that isn't the front door.

Northern policy is that if there's two incompatible units (ie no through gangway) the conductor must work from the rear unit.

 

[RPI]

Northern policy is that if there's two incompatible units (ie no through gangway) the conductor must work from the rear unit.

I do always find this strange as GWR have never had this, not that much of an issue these days as it's only the 143's with no gangways

 

[startingaparty]

They won't do anything even if they caught them. I was on a train the other afternoon and there was a group of lads that boarded when the guard approached them for their tickets they declined and said they were getting off in stops time. The guard just tutted and said something about their mum would say and waltzed into the back cabin much to the dismay of us fare paying passengers watching.

 

[sportzbar]

You are permitted to dispatch from any door that isn't the front door.

I can say with 100% certainty that is correct for any stock with through gangways (eg. 2 x150/2 or 156+150/2). However any units that are non compatible in multiple formation (eg. 142+150, 150/1+156), must be worked from any door on the rear unit.

 

[js1000]

I think it's ties in with general cost-cutting at Northern. Staff numbers to bare minimum, no cleaning staff at major stations anymore etc. Arriva don't see the point in having a third member of staff on a service. At the same time Penalty Fares scheme would have recouped some of this lost revenue as fare evading was common across the Northern netwoek prior to this being introduced.

 

[Djgr]

Perhaps Northern should introduce a pay what you think we're worth policy?

 

[scotrail158713]

Perhaps Northern should introduce a pay what you think we're worth policy?

That’ll be no help for revenue

 

[Brissle Girl]

I do always find this strange as GWR have never had this, not that much of an issue these days as it's only the 143's with no gangways

Err, and the Class 165 and 166 of course. (Good to have a second member of staff in the rear unit when one breaks down in the Severn Tunnel for 2 1/2 hours.)

 

[_toommm_]

Northern did have a revenue-only person on the Manchester to Hadfield/Glossop runs in the afternoon peak.

For anyone not familiar with the 323s, they can only be dispatched from the rear cab or a panel in the middle carriage, and the stops are very frequent, so revenue often suffers.

 

[jamesst]

They won't do anything even if they caught them. I was on a train the other afternoon and there was a group of lads that boarded when the guard approached them for their tickets they declined and said they were getting off in stops time. The guard just tutted and said something about their mum would say and waltzed into the back cabin much to the dismay of us fare paying passengers watching.

Well you cant hold them hostage on the train until they pay.
You cant hold the train until they pay or leave as a) the other passengers turn on you...and yes they do, it happened to me at a different toc and b) you'll get pulled up by management.
And it's pretty pointless calling btp as they're badly understaffed and will rarely turn up.

 

[Intermodal]

I can say with 100% certainty that is correct for any stock with through gangways (eg. 2 x150/2 or 156+150/2). However any units that are non compatible in multiple formation (eg. 142+150, 150/1+156), must be worked from any door on the rear unit.

I don't wish to enter an argument about this here but I will simply say that isn't what I've been told.

 

[wolfman]

Was at Retford yesterday ,as I strolled down platform 1 to the low level was met by 10 yes 10 revenue protection staff.Bit ott don't you think.

 

[Llandudno]

Perhaps the guards are too embarrassed to ask for fares owing to the shoddy service provided by Northern?

 

[sportzbar]

I don't wish to enter an argument about this here but I will simply say that isn't what I've been told.

No problem. Whoever told you either doesn't work as a guard at Northern (as I do), or is someone not doing their job correctly. Happy to have clarified it for you

 

[ricoblade]

Was at Retford yesterday ,as I strolled down platform 1 to the low level was met by 10 yes 10 revenue protection staff.Bit ott don't you think.

Ooh! I've never seen RP in my 20 years of travelling to/from Retto!

 

[tbtc]

What became apparent on leaving Leeds and calling at stations was that a lot of people were getting on the 142 which was leading with very few on the 150

That might just be because everyone prefers the comfort and ride quality of Pacers!

More seriously though, this is a problem locally - there are lot of "pay when challenged" passengers - the local fares subsidised by PTEs are so low that the 10% commission isn't going to encourage judicious ticket checking - the standard practice is to open and close doors from the rear of the train - it seems easier to rely on the barriers at Leeds (etc) catching passengers rather than having staff getting round the train.

TBH a Guard may not get out of the rear carriage of a two coach 142 during a half hour journey (given the responsibility for operation of the doors) so even if the doubled up DMU was one with corridor connection, I'd not be surprised if they never had opportunity to get out of the rear half of the train.

I've suggested before that it'd be worthwhile having revenue collection on some of the busier bits of line - (assuming that Guards retain responsibility for the doors) it's maybe not cost effective to have three members of staff on board for the duration of each journey but I think it'd be positive to have revenue staff shuttling on bits of journey like Leeds - New Pudsey/ Wakefield Westgate/ Headingley, Sheffield - Meadowhall, that kind of thing.

 

[Class195]

Northern policy is that if there's two incompatible units (ie no through gangway) the conductor must work from the rear unit.

That is my understanding from what the conductor on the 150/142 said. He would love to catch those not paying but he is bound by rules to remain in the rear unit.

 

[sportzbar]

Unfortunately this is true but sometimes when booked as passenger I'll work the front unit. Surprising how many none ticket holders there usually are.....

 

[Class195]

I can say with 100% certainty that is correct for any stock with through gangways (eg. 2 x150/2 or 156+150/2). However any units that are non compatible in multiple formation (eg. 142+150, 150/1+156), must be worked from any door on the rear unit.

This has to be down to health and safety surely?

 

[Class195]

Unfortunately this is true but sometimes when booked as passenger I'll work the front unit. Surprising how many none ticket holders there usually are.....

Although difficult to see out of the window, there must have been 15/20 passengers all getting in the 142 when we reached New Pudsey.

Obviously, Bradford has barriers with staff on duty but what stations on the Calder Valley have barriers?

Northern must be losing a lot of revenue with these trains having no gangway.