Northern and Fare Evasion

[jtuk]

They've certainly started sprouting around the Netherlands and France.

Yep, I mostly travel around Germany to be fair, it makes sense in the Netherlands because everyone is using the OV-chipkaart anyway

 

[NoMorePacers]

Hull is a TPE run station but there are no barriers so no checks off Doncaster/Brid line services. Ticket checking by conductors is very variable on those Northern services.

Im not sure Northern put into place extra staff on days when there are one-off events like last Sundays Festival of Xmas at Beverley. Trains were heaving but didnt see any extra staff on duty. I was travelling to London and it took FIVE minutes to empty a Scarboro to Hull service at Beverley as it was so full. Cant believe they all had tickets! No signs of extra staff to check. And btw the ticket machine on platform 2 was not working!

Hull guards seem to be fairly consistent with checking tickets. Although I don't go up the Yorkshire Coast Line all too often admittedly, so I can't really say what the situation is like there.

I've only ever been checked on ECML Intercity services when going north of York, for instance, or on TPE it depends on how busy the train is usually (although saying that I've had a few guards brave the crowds and do a full check).

Jesus, when you think Piccadilly can't get any worse. How hard is it to just adopt the European model of no barriers but have regular enough manual checks that people buy to not get pinged with disproportionately large fines?

Then again, if we're talking about Northern, then at least today for people to avoid fares there needs to be trains to run

They do that at Piccadilly already. They have a full-on goon squad in operation there.

 

[YorksDMU]

I travel, regularly on the Hull, Bridlington and Scarborough line, and there always ticket checks on the trains. One thing that puzzles me is when someone from, for example, Cottingham gets on the train without a ticket and is not issued with a penalty fare. I thought if you did not purchase a ticket prior to your journey, you would receive a penalty fare. I always purchase my ticket before travelling, so have no personal experience.

 

[NoMorePacers]

I travel, regularly on the Hull, Bridlington and Scarborough line, and there always ticket checks on the trains. One thing that puzzles me is when someone from, for example, Cottingham gets on the train without a ticket and is not issued with a penalty fare. I thought if you did not purchase a ticket prior to your journey, you would receive a penalty fare. I always purchase my ticket before travelling, so have no personal experience.

That only happens if an RPI catches them without a ticket before a guard sells them one. And I have never seen an RPI anywhere on the Northern network, let alone in a relative backwater (with consideration to other places) like Hull.

 

[Killingworth]

That only happens if an RPI catches them without a ticket before a guard sells them one. And I have never seen an RPI anywhere on the Northern network, let alone in a relative backwater (with consideration to other places) like Hull.

Certainly encounter them from time to time on Hope Valley. Saw 6 get off an evening Manchester commuting timed service at Dore then wait to catch Sheffield commuters as they left the station coming the other way. No barriers at any station on that line although tickets are usually checked at Piccadilly.

Meadowhall is a good place to find large numbers of RPIs, presumably because experience suggests a lot avoid paying on lines passing through there, although I've only seen them in action by the Barnsley and Leeds platforms.

Newecastle is gated but half the times I go through there they're not in use.

 

[YorksDMU]

Thank you, NoMorePacers. That does explain the position regrading penalty fares. I can’t remember the last time I saw any RPI’s on the line.

 

[js1000]

The goon squad at Piccadilly are used as ticket barriers, to the dismay of most travellers.

There are a disproportionate number of goons at Piccadilly unfortunately. Even Network Rail have been fed up with them as they usually get the blame for any dispute etc rather than the TOC. NR banned Northern from conducting ticket checks on Fairfield Street earlier this year as they wouldn't let those with genuine disability use the access lift upto platforms 13/14 without a ticket. They only do checks at the satellite lounge now.

 

[185]

....earlier this year as they wouldn't let those with genuine disability use the access lift upto platforms 13/14 without a ticket. They only do checks at the satellite lounge now.

Bit silly them checking passengers entering, as iirc the whole point of them being on Fairfield St was to intercept persons leaving with intent not to pay. (allegedly)

 

[RPI]

Err, and the Class 165 and 166 of course. (Good to have a second member of staff in the rear unit when one breaks down in the Severn Tunnel for 2 1/2 hours.)

Yes, my bad with that one! I'd only worked the front set of a 5 car turbo that day too

 

[sheff1]

Meadowhall is a good place to find large numbers of RPIs, presumably because experience suggests a lot avoid paying on lines passing through there, although I've only seen them in action by the Barnsley and Leeds platforms.

The last time I saw them, rather than being on the platform approaches, they had positioned themselves on the bridge so that anyone walking across from the Tyler St entrance to the shopping centre had to pass them even though they had been nowhere near a train, which seemed an unecessary potential cause of conflict.
This is similar to when they occasionally blocked the Supertram entrance at Sheffield which certainly caused conflict with non-passengers but which is something I have not encountered for years now (possably for that reason).

 

[ricoblade]

I was on the 11:20 Doncaster to Sheffield ex-Bridlington Northern service on Saturday and was surprised as to how many people bought on board when the guard came through checking tickets. He was very cheerful and more than happy to do so.

As an aside, I can't get used to these nice new Northern trains, it doesn't feel like Northern! I'm doing Retford<>Sheffield on Wednesday and no doubt a Pacer will turn up to set the record straight!

 

[Iskra]

Promise to pay is an absolute shambles on the lines around Sheffield. What’s the point in a policy if it isn’t going to be enforced? And fare evasion is rife as Sheffield is not a gated station. Some Sheffield-Huddersfield 3-car services do have 2 onboard staff to work each end of the train to try get everyone to pay up.

 

[scrapy]

Promise to pay is an absolute shambles on the lines around Sheffield. What’s the point in a policy if it isn’t going to be enforced? And fare evasion is rife as Sheffield is not a gated station. Some Sheffield-Huddersfield 3-car services do have 2 onboard staff to work each end of the train to try get everyone to pay up.

Northern had to implement a penalty fare scheme as a franchise requirement. It also had to reduce instances of ticketless travel (which wasn't exactly difficult as it was much higher under serco/abellio due to having nowhere to buy and e/m tickets not being the norm). This is one thing Arriva has done and exceeded franchise requirements.

Unfortunately there is no specification in the franchise on how penalties are implemented or how well trained staff have to be.

 

[C J Snarzell]

I've used a couple of Merseyrail services from time to time and they seem to be really on the ball with fare evaders. Their revenue protection officers are quite robust and I always see them on board most of the services running from Ormskirk and Kirkby where coincidentally passengers have to change from the Northern services which terminate at those stations. Its almost as if Merseyrail are trying to catch out culprits who have slipped through Northern's web!!!

 

[Richard P]

Generally wherever you travel (and I include the London Underground in this too) once you get past around 8.00pm most ticket barriers wherever installed are unmanned and open so people have free movement. That said when I got off at Deansgate Castlefield a few Saturdays ago around 8.15pm there were ticket checks at the exit but at street level only when at one time tickets were checked at platform level so there was no opportunity to cross the footbridge towards the Metrolink station and leave the network there
Tickets checks it seems to me vary significantly - I have a disabled pass to travel on buses, trams etc. that last for 2 years. I am a reasonably regular user of the Metrolink and my last pass didn't get checked once in 2 years I had it!
Northern though as with any aspects of it's operation is a real frustration when it comes to tickets and I know a few people who no longer use Northern in my locality (Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Road via Warrington Central) in a rush hour precisely because they can't buy a ticket to travel. The typical scenario is they arrive for their train in a morning (their local station has no ticketing arrangements and I include self service tickets in this). They get on the train which everyone is packed in to like sardines so as a result to guard cannot get down the train to sell tickets. When they get to Oxford Road they have to have a ticket to get off the station so they queue up for longer than the journey itself takes just to buy a ticket. Not a great way to have to commute

 

[Matt_pool]

I see lots of people every day who board a Northern train heading to Warrington/Manchester Oxford Rd at Lime Street, Edge Hill, Mossley Hill and West Allerton, all of which have ticket offices and ticket machines, who fail to buy tickets when they have the opportunity!

So if they get to Oxford Road with no ticket it's usually their own fault!

Going in the opposite direction towards Liverpool, dozens of people take a chance every day and don't buy a ticket, because they know that the trains from Warrington/Manchester Oxford Rd go into platforms 6-10 which have no barriers!

 

[Matt_pool]

P.S. Or they all could very easily download the Northern app onto their phones and purchase tickets that way!!!!

P.P.S. surprisingly most of the people I see who try and avoid buying a ticket if they can get away with it are commuters on their way to/from work who should know better!

 

[Meerkat]

Is there any way for guards to tag cctv showing those who refuse to pay?
I am thinking for targeting by RPIs rather than taking the cctv to court (if the culprits are nasty sorts they know where to find the guard who takes them to court)
What is the minimum the guard needs to do to create an offence - a refused request to show/buy a ticket, or do you have to demand and be denied name and address?

 

[gazzaa2]

Northern though as with any aspects of it's operation is a real frustration when it comes to tickets and I know a few people who no longer use Northern in my locality (Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Road via Warrington Central) in a rush hour precisely because they can't buy a ticket to travel. The typical scenario is they arrive for their train in a morning (their local station has no ticketing arrangements and I include self service tickets in this). They get on the train which everyone is packed in to like sardines so as a result to guard cannot get down the train to sell tickets. When they get to Oxford Road they have to have a ticket to get off the station so they queue up for longer than the journey itself takes just to buy a ticket. Not a great way to have to commute

Be even more fun if they take the EMT service off the line

 

[Bantamzen]

From my daily observations on Aire & Wharfe services in West Yorks, on services into Leeds in the morning peak guards will usually just walk through the trains offering ticketless passengers the opportunity to buy one before arrival into Leeds. And since the PF scheme came into being, along with the new TVMs it is noticeable just how many fewer people seem to board without tickets. Indeed prior to the scheme it was fairly common for a number of passengers to buy returns to London onboard, but these days I don't notice that so much but there are clearly a lot more people picking up tickets on demand from the TVMs.

In the evening peaks, save the very rammed ones, it seems common for guards to conduct full ticket checks. Very occasionally there have been two guards / revenue staff, but this might just have been for training purposes as it doesn't happen very often now. I do remember years ago that the first Doncaster-Leeds service always used to have two guards / revenue staff onboard a single 321, although its been many a year since I frequented that one.

 

[underbank]

Usually fun on the Morecambe to Lancaster trains. It's usually Bare Lane where most people get on (unmanned, no ticket machine). People are pushing and shoving each other to get to the front/Lancaster end of the train. They only do that because they know the guard starts coming through from the rear to check/sell tickets, so the further they are forward, ahead of as many other passengers as possible, the less likely the guard will reach them. No barriers at Lancaster, so once the train reaches the station approach, and the guard turns around and goes back to the rear to be ready to operate the doors, the front passengers know they have got away with it.

I've never understood why Northern care so little about fare dodgers. Do the management really not know what goes on? Does the guard not report back periodically as to what s/he can see clearly happens? Does management not ask the guards what goes on?

 

[Killingworth]

Usually fun on the Morecambe to Lancaster trains. It's usually Bare Lane where most people get on (unmanned, no ticket machine). People are pushing and shoving each other to get to the front/Lancaster end of the train. They only do that because they know the guard starts coming through from the rear to check/sell tickets, so the further they are forward, ahead of as many other passengers as possible, the less likely the guard will reach them. No barriers at Lancaster, so once the train reaches the station approach, and the guard turns around and goes back to the rear to be ready to operate the doors, the front passengers know they have got away with it.

I've never understood why Northern care so little about fare dodgers. Do the management really not know what goes on? Does the guard not report back periodically as to what s/he can see clearly happens? Does management not ask the guards what goes on?

Of course guards know what goes on, and some make greater efforts than others to collect fares. One or two are really keen, but the initial enthusiasm of new starters must get worn down by the practical impossibility of the task.

One complex transaction and a whole carriage gets away unchecked. As an example, I took my wife, son, his wife and two grandsons to Manchester from Grindleford and wanted Manchester Wayfarers for us all with a variety of railcards. The guard didn't know how to do it and after New Mills gave up and told me to go to the booking office at Piccadilly, which I did. That's extreme. At least the TVMs are helping with routine journeys , but obtaining a promise to pay is standard practice for very many who have debit cards and know they'll not be asked to pay on the train. It's an insurance to avoid a penalty fare.

 

[LowLevel]

Of course guards know what goes on, and some make greater efforts than others to collect fares. One or two are really keen, but the initial enthusiasm of new starters must get worn down by the practical impossibility of the task.

One complex transaction and a whole carriage gets away unchecked. As an example, I took my wife, son, his wife and two grandsons to Manchester from Grindleford and wanted Manchester Wayfarers for us all with a variety of railcards. The guard didn't know how to do it and after New Mills gave up and told me to go to the booking office at Piccadilly, which I did. That's extreme. At least the TVMs are helping with routine journeys , but obtaining a promise to pay is standard practice for very many who have debit cards and know they'll not be asked to pay on the train. It's an insurance to avoid a penalty fare.

There are 4 kinds of guards in my experience. The first don't give a toss about revenue, will have a half hearted wander about every now and then and that's about it.

The second is the common middle of the road type - tries hard and usually achieves what they need to, but perhaps will struggle with more complex requests as they never get training refreshers.

The third is the enthusiast who usually could write the book on tickets and are either very keen or intentionally a bit lax.

The fourth type is the obsessive and they tend to create the most problems. They're the ones you find creating their own rules etc.

Consistently is king and frequently lacking, is the honest answer.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Going back to Bare Lane, does anyone know why it hasn’t got a ticket machine(s). I thought that when the current Northern franchise was let there was a commitment to install machines at all stations above a certain footfall. We now have machines in the Hope Valley (even if often unusable because of sun on screen, sorry). Bare Lane isn’t some tiny halt in the middle of nowhere.

 

[janb]

Going back to Bare Lane, does anyone know why it hasn’t got a ticket machine(s). I thought that when the current Northern franchise was let there was a commitment to install machines at all stations above a certain footfall. We now have machines in the Hope Valley (even if often unusable because of sun on screen, sorry). Bare Lane isn’t some tiny halt in the middle of nowhere.

They hit technical difficulties. Educated guess would be insufficient power supply and/or needing to run cables underneath the track. A machine is supposed to be installed "early 2020" though.

 

[Hazlehead]

Generally wherever you travel (and I include the London Underground in this too) once you get past around 8.00pm most ticket barriers wherever installed are unmanned and open so people have free movement. That said when I got off at Deansgate Castlefield a few Saturdays ago around 8.15pm there were ticket checks at the exit but at street level only when at one time tickets were checked at platform level so there was no opportunity to cross the footbridge towards the Metrolink station and leave the network there
Tickets checks it seems to me vary significantly - I have a disabled pass to travel on buses, trams etc. that last for 2 years. I am a reasonably regular user of the Metrolink and my last pass didn't get checked once in 2 years I had it!
Northern though as with any aspects of it's operation is a real frustration when it comes to tickets and I know a few people who no longer use Northern in my locality (Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Oxford Road via Warrington Central) in a rush hour precisely because they can't buy a ticket to travel. The typical scenario is they arrive for their train in a morning (their local station has no ticketing arrangements and I include self service tickets in this). They get on the train which everyone is packed in to like sardines so as a result to guard cannot get down the train to sell tickets. When they get to Oxford Road they have to have a ticket to get off the station so they queue up for longer than the journey itself takes just to buy a ticket. Not a great way to have to commute

Whilst there's no stipulation to (Yet!) I'm sure all these folk have a smartphone in their hand so could easily buy a ticket on an app whilst eating their cornflakes at home or when waiting on the platform for their train?
And if they are commuting every day then surely they should be saving money buying a season ticket. And don't northern now have smart cards as season tickets?

 

[scrapy]

One complex transaction and a whole carriage gets away unchecked. As an example, I took my wife, son, his wife and two grandsons to Manchester from Grindleford and wanted Manchester Wayfarers for us all with a variety of railcards. The guard didn't know how to do it and after New Mills gave up and told me to go to the booking office at Piccadilly, which I did. That's extreme. At least the TVMs are helping with routine journeys , but obtaining a promise to pay is standard practice for very many who have debit cards and know they'll not be asked to pay on the train. It's an insurance to avoid a penalty fare.

Not really a complex transaction and looks like poor training on Northerns part (and I know Northern give very little training on it). Railcard discounts are not available on Wayfarers and the 4 types of Wayfarer (Adult, Child, Concession, Group) can easily be found on the Rovers section on the Star Mobile.

 

[M60lad]

Something I've just remembered this morning is that there are some Northern Guards and maybe Guards/Train Managers at other TOCS that dont actually check tickets properly, I've got a Disabled Railcard which I always carry with me whenever I'm out and there are times in the past when I've been on a train and shown the Guard/Train Manager my ticket when asked and never been challenged to show my Railcard, jutst shows how easy it can be for anyone to actually buy a ticket and add on the Railcard discount from a ticket machine and not be challenged when a ticket check takes place on a train.

 

[scotrail158713]

And don't northern now have smart cards as season tickets?

If they’re anything like the Scotrail smart cards then they’ll be useless

 

[Class195]

Something I've just remembered this morning is that there are some Northern Guards and maybe Guards/Train Managers at other TOCS that dont actually check tickets properly, I've got a Disabled Railcard which I always carry with me whenever I'm out and there are times in the past when I've been on a train and shown the Guard/Train Manager my ticket when asked and never been challenged to show my Railcard, jutst shows how easy it can be for anyone to actually buy a ticket and add on the Railcard discount from a ticket machine and not be challenged when a ticket check takes place on a train.

Isn’t that why there is a now a distinct black spot at the top of the ticket to alert the guard that a railcard discount has been used?