Northern and prosecutions for railcard use before 10am

[Haywain]

How is the average irregular rail user supposed to trawl through it all?

It's difficult but somewhere we have to draw a line that encourages people to buy the right ticket.

Or even a foreign visitor with just a basic grasp of English?

I'm afraid that's no different to British people going to most other countries.

 

[JonathanH]

No idea why the minimum fare thing even exists in the first place. Or why it would be 10am rather than 9am considering 9am is usually when the peak hour ends.

The purpose, back when this was a student railcard, is to avoid the cannibalisation of revenue for short journeys such as travel to college where it was felt that a discount shouldn't be offered, but allow longer distance journeys to take place and be discounted such as returning home to University in the morning peak after a weekend. It is pretty obvious really.

10am rather than 9am or 9.30am, because that captures later starts. 10am actually gives three levels of fare, peak, off-peak and discounted off-peak.

It has been in place pretty much throughout the existence of the railcard and has been £12 for around 15 years.

 

[LJA]

The restriction does seem increasingly illogical given the number of cheap advances on short journeys, especially in northernland

Doesn’t make much sense to me that railcard discounts before 10am on cheap advance are fine, but not on a more expensive anytime

Of course if they did try to “simplify” it no doubt it would not be to the customers benefit

 

[simonw]

It's difficult but somewhere we have to draw a line that encourages people to buy the right ticket.

I'm afraid that's no different to British people going to most other countries.

Quite. On a trip to Madrid a few years back, we were advised by station staff that two tickets could be loaded on to one pass and that all we needed to do was swipe it on entry, there being no barriers. At the other end of the journey we got a fifty euro fine for only swiping the ticket once, not twice.

 

[Bikeman78]

Yep this is the issue with the "be nice and just let them pay the difference" attitude. Why bother paying the full price for the correct ticket when you can buy a cheaper one and maybe get away with it, and if you don't you only have to pay the difference anyway.

That seems to be how the supermarket self checkouts work. Have there been many cases of people being prosecuted for fiddling the system? By all accounts, it is a significant problem.

A rather amusing personal anecdote. I went round Sainsburys with one of those self scanners. I have been using them for years. The checkout said I needed a random check. It turned out I hadn't scanned one of the items. So the lady scanned everything again and the new total was lower than the original when I allegedly hadn't scanned everything!

 

[redreni]

Because you select which train you're travelling on. The only thing I think they specifically do wrong is that it says "valid at any time" when it should say "valid at any time, subject to Railcard time/validity restrictions" if you purchased with one.

Non-planner TVMs indeed generally won't let you buy a discounted ticket at the wrong time (but will let you "price it up" to the minimum for the odd cases where you might want to, e.g. where you may want to "price up" £11.something to £12 on a Family card so as to obtain discounted child tickets) but if you select the option that many have to buy a ticket for travel at a different time it will let you.

I agree you select a train when you buy online. That's only because you have to.

I do not agree that there's any obligation whatsoever to select the train you intend to travel on, or indeed to have formed an intention to travel on any particular train at the time of purchase. If you buy a flexible ticket that says it's valid at any time, why would you think you were obliged to take any time or trouble to choose a specific train? Why not just pick the first one you see? It says it's valid at any time.

 

[Mojo]

Does anyone know whether the minimum fare has been increased over the years, or has it been stuck at £12 since the card was first introduced? It looks like it's unchanged since at least 2015: https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/minimum-fare-on-young-persons-railcard-july-august.118092/

Presumably the minimum fare was put in place to stop railcards being used for regular short-distance commuting. But if it's been held at the same value and not increased with fare inflation, it will apply to fewer and fewer journeys, which makes it a bit pointless.

It's changed over the years, and it used to be a different minimum for singles and returns.

I believe it was £8 for singles and £16 for returns before it became £12 across the board.

The current minimum fare was set at its current level in 2009.

Previously, whether it was a return or single didn't come into it. It was £8 for Off-peaks and £16 for Anytimes. Prior to "simplification" in 2008 the £8 minimum fare applied to ticket types such as Savers and Cheap Days, and £16 for Open and Standard Days.

 

[talldave]

It's difficult but somewhere we have to draw a line that encourages people to buy the right ticket.

I'm afraid that's no different to British people going to most other countries.

And in Oslo I was treated with great sympathy when I was found travelling on a train with a "ticket" on which the TVM had apparently printed the equivalent of "transaction failed" in Norwegian!! I was told exactly what to buy at my destination and who to buy it from.

 

[Watershed]

I'm afraid that's no different to British people going to most other countries.

Except the ticketing system in other countries is, as a rule, a lot simpler. And they usually have an English option on their TVMs and online retailers/apps, whereas ours generally don't have foreign language options.

 

[simonw]

Except the ticketing system in other countries is, as a rule, a lot simpler. And they usually have an English option on their TVMs and online retailers/apps, whereas ours generally don't have foreign language options.

Please see my post above...

 

[Wallsendmag]

Except the ticketing system in other countries is, as a rule, a lot simpler. And they usually have an English option on their TVMs and online retailers/apps, whereas ours generally don't have foreign language options.

Really? I can't remember seeing a TVM without a different language option and believe me I've seen a few.

 

[ainsworth74]

The Forum has been approached by a journalist at The Telegraph who would be interested in speaking with anyone who may have been impacted by the issue of not being offered an excess when travelling with railcard discounted ticket at a time it is not valid (whether it be Northern or another TOC which is involved). If you'd like to be put in touch then either drop me a Conversation message or use the "Contact Us" button at the bottom of every page.

 

[talldave]

This feels like another area where the forum experts could put together a briefing note on the key issues - NRCoT, Railcard T's & C's, retailer accreditation, etc to give media some of the background to why some passengers make innocent mistakes and others exploit the loophole to save money.

 

[miami]

Ideally the media would look at what happens the other way when highly trained rail staff make "innocent mistakes" about ticket validity and charge passengers more than they should (Paddington and Euston gatelines for example), and ask where the criminal charges are.

If a retailer sells a ticket that claims it is valid at any time, and it actually isn't, then it seems to me that the retailer is at fault, not the passengers, just like if a retailer sold an itinerary with a ticket that doesn't match the ticket conditions.

 

[The_Train]

What I find infuriating about this is that this is always, by definition, over differences of less than £4. Even a blanket, on the spot £20 fine is a better solution than what we have now.

But what if the fare evading goes on day after day? Suddenly that £4 is £40 or £400 or £4000

Take a look at Northern's page on Anytime tickets: https://www.northernrailway.co.uk/tickets/anytime, from which

And trying for the ticket in question, I got this:
View attachment 167087Note well that it says:

... and I would regard both 09:30 and 09:59 as included in 'any time of day'

But if you required to travel at 7am, you'd put 7am into your search criteria and then select the train closest to 7am. There is no reason for you to then scroll through a number of services until you reach the 10:29.

Gill Furness MP Twitter feed;

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How does she know they are "innocent mistakes"?

..


However a simpler system won't always work for the benefit of passengers. Just look at the simpler fares on LNER which did away with super off-peak singles.

Indeed! We should be careful what we wish for as should the railways. If the simpler system results in even higher fares then that will just create more fare evasion

I'd rather have a few wrongdoers getting away with it than have a few innocent people getting slapped with a criminal record.

A "few"? Intentional fare evasion is rife across the network - I doubt there has been a day out on the rails that I've had this year where I've not witnessed fare evasion. Even to the point of us having to briefly endure one on the 323 farewell tour

Because most people aren't, in fact, out to avoid their fare?

We know that for sure, do we?

If the odds are so low that they'll get "caught" why would they bother buying a fare at all?

Because they need to enter or exit stations through barriers and so need a ticket?

The offender was taken to court because he didn't have the correct ticket and refused to pay the penalty for not having the correct ticket.

No sympathy from me and clearly none from the court.

Nor me! I think a lot of these cases will be people thinking they could play the system with the most risk being that they'd pay the excess fare IF they got caught so it's worth the risk. Then when it escalated they thought they could bury their heads in the sand and surely it would go away. And then when that failed they panicked and went crying to the local press about it. People just don't want to take responsibility for their actions these days!

The Forum has been approached by a journalist at The Telegraph who would be interested in speaking with anyone who may have been impacted by the issue of not being offered an excess when travelling with railcard discounted ticket at a time it is not valid (whether it be Northern or another TOC which is involved). If you'd like to be put in touch then either drop me a Conversation message or use the "Contact Us" button at the bottom of every page.

I doubt this lot really give a damn about the people affected. This will just be another thing they will use to bash Starmer and Labour as has been the trend with everything since the election

 

[Alex C.]

But if you required to travel at 7am, you'd put 7am into your search criteria and then select the train closest to 7am. There is no reason for you to then scroll through a number of services until you reach the 10:29.

I usually book my commute ticket the day before I travel to avoid queues at the station - I usually select the 7:54 but travel on everything from the 5:50 to the 13:24 depending on what my day ends up looking like. Not everyone is the same and it is perfectly plausible for travel plans to change after you've selected your initial option.

 

[ainsworth74]

We know that for sure, do we?

Sorry, is the suggestion here that most passengers are fare evaders in waiting? That seems faintly ridiculous to me. There are millions of journeys every day on the railway network and the overwhelming majority of people travelling will have bought a ticket.

Because they need to enter or exit stations through barriers and so need a ticket?

Not all stations have barriers. And even of those that do if the odds were so low of being caught they'd just donught to get through them anyway.

 

[Dirty_Mac]

But what if the fare evading goes on day after day? Suddenly that £4 is £40 or £400 or £4000

A fine is a disincentive + we can already see that TOCs are very keen on enforcement

 

[The_Train]

I usually book my commute ticket the day before I travel to avoid queues at the station - I usually select the 7:54 but travel on everything from the 5:50 to the 13:24 depending on what my day ends up looking like. Not everyone is the same and it is perfectly plausible for travel plans to change after you've selected your initial option.

But you don't scroll through and pick the cheapest ticket which conveniently is the first train after the time restriction ends for your railcard?

Sorry, is the suggestion here that most passengers are fare evaders in waiting? That seems faintly ridiculous to me. There are millions of journeys every day on the railway network and the overwhelming majority of people travelling will have bought a ticket.

I read your post (incorrectly) as though you were referring to "most people" being from those who had been caught as opposed to the entire population of rail travellers, sorry!

Not all stations have barriers. And even of those that do if the odds were so low of being caught they'd just donught to get through them anyway.

Some of the fares being referred to on here are a few quid anyway (when purchased for a train that isn't valid for the railcard) so I can't see much benefit to doughnutting when they can get a ticket from the correct start point and to the correct end point for not much more

A fine is a disincentive + we can already see that TOCs are very keen on enforcement

Most of the cases I have seen posted by this journo have stated that the defendants were offered the chance to settle via a fixed penalty notice but chose not to engage and therefore found their case being heard in court

 

[Hadders]

But you don't scroll through and pick the cheapest ticket which conveniently is the first train after the time restriction ends for your railcard?

I read your post (incorrectly) as though you were referring to "most people" being from those who had been caught as opposed to the entire population of rail travellers, sorry!

Some of the fares being referred to on here are a few quid anyway (when purchased for a train that isn't valid for the railcard) so I can't see much benefit to doughnutting when they can get a ticket from the correct start point and to the correct end point for not much more

Most of the cases I have seen posted by this journo have stated that the defendants were offered the chance to settle via a fixed penalty notice but chose not to engage and therefore found their case being heard in court

I do not condone fare evasion but having selected a ticket for a train departing after 10am you then receive a ticket that says it is valid at Anytime is it reasonable to assume you could travel on an earlier train?

 

[infobleep]

Yep this is the issue with the "be nice and just let them pay the difference" attitude. Why bother paying the full price for the correct ticket when you can buy a cheaper one and maybe get away with it, and if you don't you only have to pay the difference anyway.

So should the Penalty Fare scheme be scrapped and everyone taken to court instead? That will teach 'em.

This evening I purchased a ticket from the ticket vending machine. My railcard is on my phone as it was cheaper to buy a digital one.

I forgot to bring my charger with me and my phone was running low on battery. I noticed this after purchasing my ticket and I was travelling by train.

Thankfully I had a USB C cable and my computer so I could charge the phone enough.

As it was they didn't ask to see my railcard when checking my ticket on my return journey.

 

[AlterEgo]

Of course, one would have more sympathy for the TOCs if they donated unclaimed Delay Repay Compensation to charity.

How could they possibly do this? By what mechanism would they figure out who had a claim, for how much, and tally it with people who had actually claimed?

 

[smsm1]

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In another thread of a similar vein I've found a bug when on journey planner pages with the times it gives the correct anytime non discounted price, but then once on the ticket selection screen it starts giving the cheaper young person Railcard price which it shouldn't do as outbound is before 10am.

The Scotrail app seems currently affected but LNER and Northern are not. Others may be affected too. Could there be other cases like this?

The journey is Prescot - Liverpool Lime Street weekdays with the outbound before 10am returning the same day on the 16-25 Railcard.

 

[WelshBluebird]

So should the Penalty Fare scheme be scrapped and everyone taken to court instead? That will teach 'em.

Well no, because the penalty fare seves exactly the purpose i was describing. An extra punishment / deterrent more than just "pay the difference".

 

[Djgr]

How could they possibly do this? By what mechanism would they figure out who had a claim, for how much, and tally it with people who had actually claimed?

It's OK. An estimate will do... and the back years of course.

 

[infobleep]

Well no, because the penalty fare seves exactly the purpose i was describing. An extra punishment / deterrent more than just "pay the difference".

I thought you were referring to people being taken to court?

 

[Nottingham59]

It seems to me quite simple. If the ticket is only valid after 10:00h, then don't say that it's valid at any time. Printing the words "Any Time" on such a ticket is an easement, in writing, to allow it to be used as such. If I were the a magistrate hearing such a case, I would throw it out on that basis.

 

[johncrossley]

Sorry if I might missed it somewhere, but was the passenger concerned offered a Penalty Fare or settlement, or did Northern go straight to prosecution?

 

[smsm1]

Fines and convictions for minor mistakes - how rail tickets confuse passengers - BBC News

Complex rules leave many customers feeling caught out and annoyed they aren't made clearer by rail companies.

www.bbc.co.uk

BBC have picked up on this, however they say the Railcard can't be used at all before 10am, which is incorrect. For that journey in an anytime ticket at that time of day yes, however it's not that specific.

 

[The_Train]

I do not condone fare evasion but having selected a ticket for a train departing after 10am you then receive a ticket that says it is valid at Anytime is it reasonable to assume you could travel on an earlier train?

Whilst I absolutely agree that the railway could do better (I could probably just end this sentence here as there's a lot it could do better at) and make it clearer on the tickets, I remain dubious of anyone who has decided they want to travel at 7am, has loaded up train times and then scrolled through a number of services and conveniently selected the first service after the 10am cut off for railcards. If I was RPI or a TM, that would be an immediate red flag as it's far too much effort to be looking through all these trains when the time you want should be one of the first that come up

So should the Penalty Fare scheme be scrapped and everyone taken to court instead? That will teach 'em.

I think the point the person you responded to here was making was that paying an excess fare is not a deterrent and they are absolutely correct. If there is a possibility of me saving £40 a month by selecting a later train when purchasing a ticket and travelling on an earlier one which would cost more and the only risk to that is that I might have to pay the extra £2 a couple of times within that month, or indeed on every occasion I travel, then it is worth the risk. If the risk is a penalty fare of £100+the fare each time I get caught then I'm probably not going to risk it for the potential £40 saving. Being allowed to pay an excess fare is simply not a deterrent and if anything should be removed from the process, it is this

Sorry if I might missed it somewhere, but was the passenger concerned offered a Penalty Fare or settlement, or did Northern go straight to prosecution?

There are so many examples knocking about via this local journo, I can't be confirming this for all of the examples. However, there were 2 examples he posted yesterday evening and both stated in the report that the passengers were sent fixed penalty notices and both ignored them (one even ignored the initial letter offering them the chance to explain what happened). If they don't engage, then what do they expect to happen?