Northern and prosecutions for railcard use before 10am

[AlterEgo]

Fines and convictions for minor mistakes - how rail tickets confuse passengers - BBC News

Complex rules leave many customers feeling caught out and annoyed they aren't made clearer by rail companies.

www.bbc.co.uk

BBC have picked up on this, however they say the Railcard can't be used at all before 10am, which is incorrect. For that journey in an anytime ticket at that time of day yes, however it's not that specific.

But the rules are so simple, people keep claiming.

Of course they are not simple or intuitive if someone tasked with researching the story can’t get it right.

 

[ClivePage]

But the rules are very complicated, as the time restrictions seem to depend on which type of Railcard you have, which day of the week it is, and whether (here in Network SouthEast Land) you are going towards London or away from it. As far as I can see the basic rule is that Senior Railcard can only be used a time that an Off-peak or Super-Off-Peak ticket would be valid, but at those times the discount also applies to Anytime tickets. But if anyone can find that basic rule stated anywhere then they are better at searching than I am.

 

[kkong]

But the rules are very complicated, as the time restrictions seem to depend on which type of Railcard you have, which day of the week it is, and whether (here in Network SouthEast Land) you are going towards London or away from it.

Don't forget - also which month it is!

 

[BongoStar]

The offender was taken to court because he didn't have the correct ticket and refused to pay the penalty for not having the correct ticket.

No sympathy from me and clearly none from the court.

I second this. The media is conveniently hiding the fact that the passenger refused to engage and let the matter escalate. ToCs generally settle out of court than prosecute - unless it's a case of sustained evasion.

I usually book my commute ticket the day before I travel to avoid queues at the station - I usually select the 7:54 but travel on everything from the 5:50 to the 13:24 depending on what my day ends up looking like. Not everyone is the same and it is perfectly plausible for travel plans to change after you've selected your initial option.

And this is what those whose plans are not confirmed should be doing. Buying the most flexible ticket for their situation. Not scrolling down to find the cheapest one and then claiming it to be unclear.

But the rules are so simple, people keep claiming.

Of course they are not simple or intuitive if someone tasked with researching the story can’t get it right.

The golden rule is to buy a ticket for the journey you plan to take. If you are not sure of your plans, buy the most flexible one which will cover all eventualities- not the cheapest one you can scroll to and hope to get away with it. Infact, if this golden rule is followed, there is no need to remember any other rule.

 

[AlterEgo]

I second this. The media is conveniently hiding the fact that the passenger refused to engage and let the matter escalate. ToCs generally settle out of court than prosecute - unless it's a case of sustained evasion.

So? Passengers shouldn’t be having to settle out of court here. They should be paying the excess fare.

If you are not sure of your plans, buy the most flexible one which will cover all eventualities- not the cheapest one you can scroll to and hope to get away with it. Infact, if this golden rule is followed, there is no need to remember any other rule.

So basically pay more in all circumstances. No buying an off peak ticket and excessing it then.

 

[AdamWW]

I have just realised there is relevant point that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread or the other one on a similar topic.

Train booking engines tend to default to the current time for purchases at a future date.

E.g. if it's 13:00 and I book a train for tomorrow, it will show trains around 13:00 tomorrow.

If I'm buying an anytime ticket and no reservation (likely for a ticket short enough to be affected by the minimum fare) I might not see any reason to bother selecting the correct time.

After all it tells me that the ticket it's chosen for me is valid at all times.

So I think accusations that someone must have deliberately selected a cheaper train while intending to travel earlier should be made somewhat cautiously when the ticket was purchased one or more days before travel.

 

[BongoStar]

So? Passengers shouldn’t be having to settle out of court here. They should be paying the excess fare.

Think this is already being discussed in another thread, so will avoid duplication here.

So basically pay more in all circumstances. No buying an off peak ticket and excessing it then.

Not at all. I really aspire to be like an organised colleague who has only bought advanced tickets for most of the year. On the very few occasions he knew he couldn't make it, he got it changed. IIRC, he only lost one ticket worth because something came up at last moment and he couldn't change it before departure.

There are cheap advance tickets for those who can plan well.

There are off peak tickets for those who can be flexible on when they can do the trip, with added benefit of a railcard if they qualify.

And there are walk up fares for those who want the flexibility of not having to worry about their schedule.

The buying of offpeak ticket with no intention to travel offpeak and hoping to excess them only when caught is gaming the system. Well within the rules, but not sort of circumstances for which this leniency was envisioned.

 

[Howardh]

Northern "not taking further steps" which suggests to me either they were wrong in the first place and shouldn't have these extraordinary conditions meaning your valid ticket (anytime) isn't valid (anytime) or they've just been forved to give up by all the negative publicity. If it'e either then they should, in fairness, cancel any others in the same boat.

x.com

x.com

UPDATE: WE DID IT!!! I'm delighted to say that last night I got a message from the Debt Recovery unit at
@northernassist
confirming that they will "be taking no further steps against [me]".

 

[BongoStar]

I have just realised there is relevant point that I don't think has been mentioned in this thread or the other one on a similar topic.

Train booking engines tend to default to the current time for purchases at a future date.

E.g. if it's 13:00 and I book a train for tomorrow, it will show trains around 13:00 tomorrow.

If I'm buying an anytime ticket and no reservation (likely for a ticket short enough to be affected by the minimum fare) I might not see any reason to bother selecting the correct time.

After all it tells me that the ticket it's chosen for me is valid at all times.

So I think accusations that someone must have deliberately selected a cheaper train while intending to travel earlier should be made somewhat cautiously when the ticket was purchased one or more days before travel.

Next we will also be surprised to know that if you just change the time on a train booking engine, the date doesn't change.

A field that requires user input to change will obviously remain what it was last selected at.

 

[Haywain]

Northern "not taking further steps" which suggests to me either they were wrong in the first place and shouldn't have these extraordinary conditions meaning your valid ticket (anytime) isn't valid (anytime) or they've just been forved to give up by all the negative publicity.

It will be entirely the latter. Take an easy step to shut people up.

 

[yorksrob]

This is becoming a very problematic reputational issue for the railway industry.

 

[BongoStar]

So, in summary, a passenger used a ticket wrongly, refused to engage with Northern in private, let it escalate to a point that prosecution threat had to be used, then went public to offer the same explanation that he was asked to begin with. Northern took those as reasonable and decided no further action will be taken. No different from their response to other cases they believe to be genuine mistakes.

The biggest winner here are ToCs because after this no one can claim complete ignorance on 10am rule for the railcard.

 

[miami]

So, in summary, a passenger used a ticket wrongly

A passenger used an any time ticket which said "can be used at any time" at any time

The biggest winner here are ToCs because after this no one can claim complete ignorance on 10am rule for the railcard.

Stop printing tickets saying they are valid at any time when they are in fact only valid after 10am.

 

[BongoStar]

A passenger used an any time ticket which said "can be used at any time" at any time

Strange that he saw a £5.50 ticket marked as anytime as well, didn't select it, but selected one for much later because ....????

Stop printing tickets saying they are valid at any time when they are in fact only valid after 10am.

A non existent issue for anyone buying tickets within the rules.

 

[Alex C.]

Strange that he saw a £5.50 ticket marked as anytime as well, didn't select it, but selected one for much later because ....????


A non existent issue for anyone buying tickets within the rules.

You do seem quite keen to preserve the status quo on the basis everything is so easy to understand, and I think this is an agree to disagree situation.

As a thought experiment, given how easy the rules and regulations are meant to be to understand, we should consider a strict liability criminal offence under the bylaws for any employee of the railway offering incorrect advice which leads to a passenger being charged, issuing a penalty fare incorrectly, denying boarding on the basis of misunderstanding a restriction code or initiating 70,000 prosecutions that turn out to be not lawfully issued. As a bonus, if we extract out of court settlements from all of them the railway will reduce its subsidy requirements.

 

[Howardh]

The biggest winner here are ToCs because after this no one can claim complete ignorance on 10am rule for the railcard.

Write that on the ticket then, so when it says "Anytime" there's an * with explanation below that it isn't really "Anytime". So simple...

 

[soil]

So, in summary, a passenger used a ticket wrongly, refused to engage with Northern in private, let it escalate to a point that prosecution threat had to be used, then went public to offer the same explanation that he was asked to begin with. Northern took those as reasonable and decided no further action will be taken. No different from their response to other cases they believe to be genuine mistakes.

???

"I immediately offer to pay for a new ticket, or even take a Fixed Penalty Fare if needs be. He says I can't do either; he must report it and Northern may prosecute me."

"I've emailed the revenue protection team with all the info I can, so I hope this will work out OK."

On what planet in what galaxy is that "refusing to engage"?

 

[Djgr]

So, in summary, a passenger used a ticket wrongly, refused to engage with Northern in private, let it escalate to a point that prosecution threat had to be used, then went public to offer the same explanation that he was asked to begin with. Northern took those as reasonable and decided no further action will be taken. No different from their response to other cases they believe to be genuine mistakes.

The biggest winner here are ToCs because after this no one can claim complete ignorance on 10am rule for the railcard.

This is in no way a true summary. Bit worrying that you think it is.

 

[AlterEgo]

There are off peak tickets for those who can be flexible on when they can do the trip, with added benefit of a railcard if they qualify.

And there are walk up fares for those who want the flexibility of not having to worry about their schedule.

Nobody is buying an Anytime ticket just in case they need to return at 6pm and not 8pm. Terrible consumer advice as well.

The buying of offpeak ticket with no intention to travel offpeak and hoping to excess them only when caught is gaming the system. Well within the rules, but not sort of circumstances for which this leniency was envisioned.

It’s not leniency. It’s literally the resolution in the customer contract. It could be changed, but never has. And isn’t likely to be.

So, in summary, a passenger used a ticket wrongly, refused to engage with Northern in private, let it escalate to a point that prosecution threat had to be used, then went public to offer the same explanation that he was asked to begin with. Northern took those as reasonable and decided no further action will be taken. No different from their response to other cases they believe to be genuine mistakes.

That’s not correct.

The biggest winner here are ToCs because after this no one can claim complete ignorance on 10am rule for the railcard.

That is an interesting way to think about it, but I don’t think many people will agree. And it doesn’t matter if they’re ignorant or not because the only proper disposal is an excess fare, as you keep being reminded. It is not a matter for prosecution and is exactly why this is a scandal.

 

[miami]

Strange that he saw a £5.50 ticket marked as anytime as well, didn't select it, but selected one for much later because ....????

Because it was cheaper and claimed to be valid at any time on any train.

 

[AdamWW]

Because it was cheaper and claimed to be valid at any time on any train.

I really wouldn't bother...

 

[WelshBluebird]

So I think accusations that someone must have deliberately selected a cheaper train while intending to travel earlier should be made somewhat cautiously when the ticket was purchased one or more days before travel.

Except in at least one of these cases the person has admitted doing so on twitter.

 

[AdamWW]

Except in at least one of these cases the person has admitted doing so on twitter.

I'm just pointing out that people who say that everybody in this situation must have deliberately chosen a later train than the one they intended to catch are wrong.

That's not to say that some people don't do it deliberately. I'm sure that they do and quite likely they are in the majority.

But that still doesn't make it OK to prosecute someone for using a ticket in a way you said was allowed when it was sold, or to prosecute for an offence where your own terms and conditions say you'll do something else.

 

[miami]

If a ticket is no

Of course I suspect this entire situation has been engineered by the railway as the outcome will not be "The railway is misleading passengers, and in many cases not obeying the terms and conditions they wrote, lets hold them accountable", but instead "Its too complicated, lets get rid of all flexible tickets"

 

[Kite159]

If a ticket is no

Of course I suspect this entire situation has been engineered by the railway as the outcome will not be "The railway is misleading passengers, and in many cases not obeying the terms and conditions they wrote, lets hold them accountable", but instead "Its too complicated, lets get rid of all flexible tickets"

The outcome will be a "we agree the minimum fare before 10am is confusing for our dearly beloved customers, therefore to make things nice and simple the minimum fare will apply all day Monday to Fridays excluding bank holidays, so this sort of thing can no longer cause any issues for our dearly beloved customers".

Or "we agree the minimum fare before 10am can be confusing, therefore to make things nice and simple the 16-25 railcard will no longer be valid for any services before 9:30, that will save any confusion with customers buying a ticket for a post 10am train and trying to use it before 10am"

 

[childwallblues]

I can buy a railcard discount single fron Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria Monday to Friday on the 0728 Northern service for£4.10.
Travelling on TPE at 0724 singles are currently available at £7.30. I assume that these rules do not apply to passengers travelling into Greater Manchester from outside the area.

 

[BongoStar]

I can buy a railcard discount single fron Liverpool Lime Street to Manchester Victoria Monday to Friday on the 0728 Northern service for£4.10.
Travelling on TPE at 0724 singles are currently available at £7.30. I assume that these rules do not apply to passengers travelling into Greater Manchester from outside the area.

What railcard are you using for that?

 

[Watershed]

I assume that these rules do not apply to passengers travelling into Greater Manchester from outside the area.

They apply to weekday journeys where the fare is discounted to below £12, if the journey starts before 10am. The exceptions are Advance tickets, and travel in the months of July and August.

Both the £4.10 and £7.30 singles you see are Advance tickets, to which the minimum fare rule therefore doesn't apply. However, the fact that they are even offering Advance tickets on peak-hour commuter trains - which it's thus entirely legitimate to discount with the 16-25 Railcard - demonstrates that the minimum fare rule is outdated and should be abolished.

 

[AlterEgo]

The outcome will be a "we agree the minimum fare before 10am is confusing for our dearly beloved customers, therefore to make things nice and simple the minimum fare will apply all day Monday to Fridays excluding bank holidays, so this sort of thing can no longer cause any issues for our dearly beloved customers".

Or "we agree the minimum fare before 10am can be confusing, therefore to make things nice and simple the 16-25 railcard will no longer be valid for any services before 9:30, that will save any confusion with customers buying a ticket for a post 10am train and trying to use it before 10am"

The resolution will end up being for train companies (that is, the government) to cease prosecuting people for this, because it will have been pointed out to them that it is an untenable position.

What railcard are you using for that?

Those are advance fares to which the minimum fare doesn’t apply. It highlights the ridiculous and counterintuitive nature of the restriction; the railway is perfectly happy to sell railcard discounted Advance tickets before the cut off.

 

[Kite159]

The resolution will end up being for train companies (that is, the government) to cease prosecuting people for this, because it will have been pointed out to them that it is an untenable position.


Those are advance fares to which the minimum fare doesn’t apply. It highlights the ridiculous and counterintuitive nature of the restriction; the railway is perfectly happy to sell railcard discounted Advance tickets before the cut off.

The minimum fare was before the concept of short distance "buy on the day" advances

So what would your solution be if someone knowingly purchased a ticket on an app for post 10am and used it before 10am knowing full well they were breaching the T&Cs of their railcard? A simple "ah, silly you, just pay the difference and don't do it again" response from the guard? What next, someone willingly purchasing an off-peak ticket and using it in the morning/afternoon peak, knowing the only comeback will be to be excessed to the correct fare on the odd occasion they get checked by staff? [especially if on a DOO train between two stations without barriers?]