Northern App - Running out of time #buybeforeyouboard

[Puffing Devil]

https://twitter.com/northernassist/status/873268459106336768

Running out of time? #buybeforeyouboard using our app! It’s easy and they’re ready to collect/download within 15 minutes

Running out of time.... Unfortunately, you need 15 minutes to allow the tickets to be delivered to your device. Only useful if you arrive with time to spare. :roll:

 

[najaB]

Running out of time.... Unfortunately, you need 15 minutes to allow the tickets to be delivered to your device. Only useful if you arrive with time to spare. :roll:

That 15 minutes could be while you're stuck at work finishing a ten-minute task that's ended up taking thirty, leaving you no time to get to the ticket machine/office before your train is due.

 

[radamfi]

Curious whether the Northern guards on here would accept a smartphone ticket that had not yet become available because 15 minutes since purchase had not yet elapsed, as long as it was clear that the ticket was bought before boarding, or perhaps shortly after boarding.

 

[Puffing Devil]

Curious whether the Northern guards on here would accept a smartphone ticket that had not yet become available because 15 minutes since purchase had not yet elapsed, as long as it was clear that the ticket was bought before boarding, or perhaps shortly after boarding.

The app won't sell a ticket within a window before the train is due to leave. I tried about 10 minutes before departure and the computer said no.

 

[radamfi]

The app won't sell a ticket within a window before the train is due to leave. I tried about 10 minutes before departure and the computer said no.

But you could buy a ticket for a later train on the same line. Northern mobile tickets are walk up so you don't need to use it on that specific train.

 

[najaB]

...or perhaps shortly after boarding.

I'm not a guard for Northern or any other TOC but if I were there is no way I would accept a m-Ticket purchased after boarding.

 

[Nean]

I'm guessing the 15 minutes is if you're in a dodgy signal area with lower than H+ (3.5G) signal... I've switched to using the app (avoids the "which TVM is out of service today" game at Oxford Road) and everything's done and dusted within 30 seconds!

 

[Puffing Devil]

But you could buy a ticket for a later train on the same line. Northern mobile tickets are walk up so you don't need to use it on that specific train.

And then you could show the guard your order for a ticket for a future train, that has yet to load or be validated. Not something I would want to do.

 

[radamfi]

I'm not a guard for Northern or any other TOC but if I were there is no way I would accept a m-Ticket purchased after boarding.

Fair enough in a Penalty Fare area, but on Northern you are arguably being more honest as the alternative is buying on the train or at the destination.

 

[ANorthernGuard]

I do not accept tickets purchased after boarding from a station with ticket purchasing facilities. However if they bought it from a station with none then in my mind it would just be the same as buying it from myself.

 

[najaB]

I do not accept tickets purchased after boarding from a station with ticket purchasing facilities. However if they bought it from a station with none then in my mind it would just be the same as buying it from myself.

Seems fair enough. TBH, that was more what I was thinking about with my earlier comment.

 

[johntea]

I've played about with this app a bit and sent some suggestions through to Northern but not sure if anything has been tweaked yet.

One of my main points was that the 'purchase time' of a ticket shouldn't be hidden away (you have to scroll to see that), otherwise a fare dodger could potentially board without a ticket then quickly buy one should they see the guard coming down the train! Which I suppose is better than never actually buying a ticket full stop but still...

The 'activated time' does show at the top but I've forgotten to activate tickets before until asked by a guard.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

But you could buy a ticket for a later train on the same line. Northern mobile tickets are walk up so you don't need to use it on that specific train.

Northern now have Advance Purchase on the Day (APOD) from some stations, which have the same conditions as 'Advance' tickets.

....One of my main points was that the 'purchase time' of a ticket shouldn't be hidden away (you have to scroll to see that), otherwise a fare dodger could potentially board without a ticket then quickly buy one should they see the guard coming down the train! Which I suppose is better than never actually buying a ticket full stop but still....

As I'm sure ANorthernGuard can verify, fare dodgers have already started to find ways to manipulate the M-Ticket system, particularly on Northern's app, though I'm not going to go into what they are on here for obvious reasons.

 

[radamfi]

Walk on m-tickets have been in operation for years now on German, Swiss, Belgian etc. railways. So what are Northern doing wrong that they are already dealing with problems with fraud, combined with the inconvenience for passengers of having a 15 minute advance purchase requirement?

 

[Bletchleyite]

On SBB if the ticket is timed after departure (I assume actual departure) then it is invalid.

 

[radamfi]

On SBB if the ticket is timed after departure (I assume actual departure) then it is invalid.

SBB effectively have a nationwide penalty fare system so you are supposed to have a ticket before boarding. But you can buy the ticket on the platform while waiting for the train. It doesn't have to be 15 minutes before boarding time.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Walk on m-tickets have been in operation for years now on German, Swiss, Belgian etc. railways. So what are Northern doing wrong that they are already dealing with problems with fraud, combined with the inconvenience for passengers of having a 15 minute advance purchase requirement?

Northern thought they were being clever by trying to stop fare evaders from buying tickets only when they see the conductor. This 'not within 15 minutes' malarky was their "solution" to the problem, unfortunately, fare evaders have seen ways round it and left 'genuine' passengers, who may have been asked for the full fare (as per NRCoT and Northern instruction to staff to obey it at all times), and staff to get involved in more than a few arguments and confrontations, resulting in tickets being bought on the app (whilst on the train), or website, and emails, tweets, phone calls and letters to the "Customer Experience Centre" about "rude" staff, resulting in, yes, you've guessed it, free travel vouchers being sent out.

In the short term I don't think Northern really care about the last bit, they are more interested in people buying through the website and the app because this gives less justification to keep guards and ticket office staff.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Northern, I feel, don't give a stuff about anything, as the proper way to deal with ticketing in their urban areas is to ensure a TVM is installed at each station, preferably two at each (and staffed ticket offices where applicable), and a proper statutory Penalty Fares system is implemented with on-board sales ceasing completely. The same, basically, as Metrolink and their yellow friends at the other end of the M62.

But they keep making excuses and on-the-cheap half-policies that do not solve the actual problem.

 

[Nean]

Northern, I feel, don't give a stuff about anything, as the proper way to deal with ticketing in their urban areas is to ensure a TVM is installed at each station, preferably two at each (and staffed ticket offices where applicable), and a proper statutory Penalty Fares system is implemented with on-board sales ceasing completely. The same, basically, as Metrolink and their yellow friends at the other end of the M62.

But they keep making excuses and on-the-cheap half-policies that do not solve the actual problem.

Well for starters it would help if there was more than 1 working TVM at any one time at Oxford Road... I think that in 6 months I've only seen both working a handful of times!

 

[rich r]

Certainly on my daily commute, the majority of stations that the Selby-Huddersfield Northern service calls at do not have ticket machines, and so it is the norm for people to buy tickets either on the train or when they get off at Leeds (or they have season tickets).

Of course, having the foresight to get your e-ticket sorted before you actually board shouldn't be a problem, but I do wonder what there is to be gained by preventing you getting it once you're moving. I guess that if it fails to activate then you'll just have to buy a ticket from the guard or before you get to the barriers - which may result in you being charged twice. So maybe they've restricted it to avoid that situation.

However this is not in an urban area, but the often forgotten 'beyond Leeds' end of the Northern network - so not necessarily applicable to the argument above.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well for starters it would help if there was more than 1 working TVM at any one time at Oxford Road... I think that in 6 months I've only seen both working a handful of times!

Manchester Oxford Rd - 7 million passengers per year, two TVMs, two ticket office windows.

Milton Keynes Central - 5 million passengers per year, 5 ticket office windows, 6 TVMs.

Something is rotten here.

 

[Nean]

Manchester Oxford Rd - 7 million passengers per year, two TVMs, two ticket office windows.

Milton Keynes Central - 5 million passengers per year, 5 ticket office windows, 6 TVMs.

Something is rotten here.

And I'm guessing that the MK ticket machines are of the new Virgin fastticket type instead of the Scheidt and Bachmann ones- The fastticket ones at Piccadilly seem to take about 1/3 of the time and the 5 (6?) at the Fairfield Street entrance are often deserted!

(also you forgot the guy on the platform-side who sells tickets to those unable to get through the barrier )

 

[Bletchleyite]

And I'm guessing that the MK ticket machines are of the new Virgin fastticket type instead of the Scheidt and Bachmann ones

No, they are all LM S&B machines. VT has no retail presence.

 

[Ed92uk]

The northern app is powered by masabi the same as Virgin west coast and xc (maybe others as well).

The purchase time is "hidden away" as it is not relevant the important thing is the ticket is activated. If you read the terms the ticket must be activated before the departure of the train. Sometimes I wonder if a lot of the guards know this or are being trained properly to check when activated.

If you get on the train (with no intention to avoid fare) but forgot to activate that ticket until guard asks you to that ticket is not valid. I suppose it would then be the attitude test or as I personally believe many guards are not trained to check so simply ask you to activate it.

 

[Joe Paxton]

Manchester Oxford Rd - 7 million passengers per year, two TVMs, two ticket office windows.

Milton Keynes Central - 5 million passengers per year, 5 ticket office windows, 6 TVMs.

Something is rotten here.

Or alternatively overall ticket sales at MKC are of a higher value than at Oxford Road?

 

[rich r]

If you get on the train (with no intention to avoid fare) but forgot to activate that ticket until guard asks you to that ticket is not valid. I suppose it would then be the attitude test or as I personally believe many guards are not trained to check so simply ask you to activate it.

I guess though if you activate it at that point, it's not really that different from producing an invalid paper ticket, then producing a valid one from a different pocket when informed.

I like to think that most guards are pleasant human beings who are happy to help passengers when they've been too inept to work an app on their phone. I've forgotten to activate the return part of an e-ticket on more than one occasion before getting on the train and it's never been an issue.

 

[Clip]

Manchester Oxford Rd - 7 million passengers per year, two TVMs, two ticket office windows.

Milton Keynes Central - 5 million passengers per year, 5 ticket office windows, 6 TVMs.

Something is rotten here.

I think the rotten thing is that you are not comparing like for like.

You have to remember that Oxford Road is a station in a major city and as such the entries and exits will be made up mainly of people commuting in to it rather than starting their journey there whereas Milton Keynes will have the majority of people travelling out of it.

 

[bearhugger]

The main issue i had with the app was that it really wasn't easy to register an account with it. I ended up Googling how to do it, i think i had to register on a web page on my laptop and then somehow i managed to login on the app itself. It may have changed now but it certainly wasn't a good user experience from a user who is reasonably tech savvy. I even brought it up at one of the Customer Focus workshops Northern held in Newcastle.

 

[brompton rail]

I'm glad I have read this thread.

Sometimes I travel Kirk Sandall to Doncaster - a journey of 6 minutes - and at times obtaining a ticket isn't easy, either because the train is very busy or the conductor is unable to reach me.

Therefore I must decide 15 minutes BEFORE the train is DUE, that I will risk buying a ticket on board, or buying on the App. Not at all Customer Focused!

By the way, I also use bus tickets from First South Yorkshire on their App. I can buy Singles (fixed price) months in advance and leave them in my "Purchased Wallet, and activate as the bus approaches the stop (they are time limited, so don't activate them before you see the bus or they run out!). Why aren't Northern's Mobile Tickets like that?

 

[hawk1911]

This thread reminds me of a journey I made last month from Blackpool South to Manchester (changing at Preston).

I turned up at Blackpool South 10 minutes before departure and, on discovering there was no machine, I tried to use the Northern app which, because of this 15 minute rule, wouldn't let me buy a ticket for my journey.

So, I had to board the train and wait for the 'guard' to come through. However, the train was very busy and, with the frequent stops, the 'guard' was unable to get right through the train to sell tickets to everyone before it reached Preston.

Interestingly, there were no barriers on at Preston and anyone could have exited the station without paying. It just seems that Northern want to make it harder for themselves.