Virgin Trains at Stockport say I should miss my connection to buy a ticket

[VauxhallandI]

A report from a friend this evening...

“Ticket office at handforth closed at 16:15 on a Tuesday, ticket machine still broke ( week 3) five revenue officers on platform, can I buy a ticket? No buy it in the train, no guard arrives by the time I get to stockport (6 minutes to my connecting train) stop at barriers, haven’t got a ticket told to buy it on the train etc etc, can I buy one here or get through and buy it on train as it’s going in 4 minutes, no, sorry?, no you can’t board without a ticket you need to over to the ticket office, I could buy a ticket on the train 15 minutes ago what’s changed? You must go to the ticket office, my trains going in 3 minutes. Followed by the old bill to the ticket office to make sure I purchase a ticket and then followed on to the platform, thankfully the second train was late (the incompetent bastards) so I made my connection...”​

How to make friends by Northern

 

[al78]

A report from a friend this evening...


“Ticket office at handforth closed at 16:15 on a Tuesday, ticket machine still broke ( week 3) five revenue officers on platform, can I buy a ticket? No buy it in the train, no guard arrives by the time I get to stockport (6 minutes to my connecting train) stop at barriers, haven’t got a ticket told to buy it on the train etc etc, can I buy one here or get through and buy it on train as it’s going in 4 minutes, no, sorry?, no you can’t board without a ticket you need to over to the ticket office, I could buy a ticket on the train 15 minutes ago what’s changed? You must go to the ticket office, my trains going in 3 minutes. Followed by the old bill to the ticket office to make sure I purchase a ticket and then followed on to the platform, thankfully the second train was late (the incompetent bastards) so I made my connection...”

How to make friends by Northern

Isn't this a case of the rule being if you can't purchase a ticket before travel, you must purchase a ticket at the first opportunity? Your friend couldn't buy a ticket as his origin station and couldn't buy a ticket on the train to Stockport, so the first opportunity was at Stockport station, hence the exchange at the barriers. The fact that the connection is tight is irrelevant as far as the rule book is concerned. Why it takes three weeks to repair the ticket machine I don't know, I thought the SE was the European capital of slowness, seems it is migrating to the Northern counties.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Delaying ones journey because of their lack of performance, sums up the railways in one

 

[Silverdale]

The fact that the connection is tight is irrelevant as far as the rule book is concerned.

Doesn't the rule about buying a ticket at the first opportunity allow for making a connection if there isn't sufficient additional time to buy a ticket at that station?

 

[VauxhallandI]

Exactly sometimes life can’t add long padding to make sure the railway is ok today.

 

[yorkie]

Isn't this a case of the rule being if you can't purchase a ticket before travel, you must purchase a ticket at the first opportunity? Your friend couldn't buy a ticket as his origin station and couldn't buy a ticket on the train to Stockport, so the first opportunity was at Stockport station, hence the exchange at the barriers. The fact that the connection is tight is irrelevant as far as the rule book is concerned. Why it takes three weeks to repair the ticket machine I don't know, I thought the SE was the European capital of slowness, seems it is migrating to the Northern counties.

What 'rule book'?

You are incorrect. There is no requirement to miss a connection at an interchange station to buy a ticket there.

Johngill100 - can you ask your friend to email the relevant train company/companies asking them for clarification on this matter please? Your friend may also wish to write to their MP. Please do keep us informed.

 

[bb21]

Do Northern man the gateline at Stockport, or is it Virgin staff who man them?

 

[Starmill]

Do Northern man the gateline at Stockport, or is it Virgin staff who man them?

It's Virgin Trains. I don't think Northern have any (permenent) staff at Stockport at all.

 

[pemma]

I'm guessing Johngill100 arrived at platform 3 or 4 and had go through the automatic barriers (staffed by Virgin) to get to platform 0, otherwise he wouldn't have needed to go through the barriers to change trains.

 

[bb21]

It's Virgin Trains. I don't think Northern have any (permenent) staff at Stockport at all.

That's what I suspected, only unsure as Northern used to manually barrier the bottom of the steps to 3/4.

 

[Llanigraham]

I wonder, reading some of the comments in the quote, whether he failed an attitude test?

 

[Starmill]

Indeed - I have not see any of their contractors at Stockport since the gates came into use. Whenever the gates are in use, VT staff are on hand. They also issue tickets to arriving passengers, which is the same as the situation at Stoke-on-Trent, Crewe and Manchester Piccadilly gatelines.

 

[al78]

What 'rule book'?

You are incorrect. There is no requirement to miss a connection at an interchange station to buy a ticket there.

Thank you for correcting my ignorance. It was my understanding that the requirement to buy a ticket is literal, in that it is hard luck if you miss a connecting train. It is good to know that isn't the case. This means that if I travel from Gomshall to Horsham, I don't need to buy a ticket at Redhill if doing so would result in a missed train, I can wait until I get to Horsham.

 

[robbeech]

Absolutely not, though if you had deliberately left below the minimum connection time at a station then they could likely request you do so if this then provides you with sufficient time. I think this would be fair.
Had you missed the connection due to being forced to purchase a ticket you would have been entitled to delay repay if you were over the threshold at your destination.

 

[MichaelAMW]

Absolutely not, though if you had deliberately left below the minimum connection time at a station then they could likely request you do so if this then provides you with sufficient time. I think this would be fair.
Had you missed the connection due to being forced to purchase a ticket you would have been entitled to delay repay if you were over the threshold at your destination.

I completely disagree. It's not an offence to make a sub-official-minimum connection and they shouldn't be treating someone who is legitimately without a ticket any differently from someone with one.

 

[robbeech]

if you miss a connection (be it below the minimum connection time or not) and this then gives you enough time to purchase a ticket then this should be the point in which you purchase a ticket.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I wonder, reading some of the comments in the quote, whether he failed an attitude test?

Don't always assume a rant after the incident is how it happened in real life.

I think the attitude test is failed when the people with the power get it wrong in the first place. Is one supposed to still suck it up when they are wrong. It doesn't happen in other walks of life.

 

[farleigh]

What is an attitude test?

Is it where people with a subservient demeanour get nicer rules applied to them?

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is an attitude test?

Is it where people with a subservient demeanour get nicer rules applied to them?

It's where people who are rude get the rules applied to the letter, and where the letter allows for discretion the least accommodating discretion is used.

There is no need to be "subservient", just polite.

 

[Llanigraham]

Don't always assume a rant after the incident is how it happened in real life.

I think the attitude test is failed when the people with the power get it wrong in the first place. Is one supposed to still suck it up when they are wrong. It doesn't happen in other walks of life.

Really??
I can assure you that it does happen in other places, from restaurants to shops, hospitals to the Police.
Try being rude and aggressive to a waiter and then don't look too close at your dinner or coffee later.
Be rude to a shop assistant and you might be surprised how long they can take to deal with you or what discounts you won't get offered.
Try being rude to a Policeman when he stops you for some reason; what could have resulted in a warning can soon change to a fine or arrest.

And even signallers can be very awkward when people blow their horns at us at level crossings because we aren't quick enough the raise the barriers, or worse, if railway buffs ask for visits and don't bring cakes and biscuits!!

 

[AlterEgo]

I completely disagree. It's not an offence to make a sub-official-minimum connection and they shouldn't be treating someone who is legitimately without a ticket any differently from someone with one.

The railway also doesn’t promise you can make that connection though.

 

[Starmill]

It's where people who are rude get the rules applied to the letter, and where the letter allows for discretion the least accommodating discretion is used.

There is no need to be "subservient", just polite.

In cases where there is an element of discretion (or a perceived one at least), passing the attitude test is a euphemism for being very compliant and polite. The theory goes that if you are honest, speak politely and outwardly agree with the staff concerned (even if in reality you do not agree with what they are saying), they will be more likely to treat you with positive discretion. It does have some merit from my anecdotal experiences. It is often very useful.

Some people on here describe being abusive or loud and using bad language as 'failing the attitude test'. I'm not really sure this is the same thing, as this behavior is as unacceptable if you are completely in the right as if you are not, but I can see where the parallel is drawn. To my mind, failing the attitude test might be a frank and firm assertion of what you see as the facts, but still a polite one which does not involve any bad language or raised voices. Some staff, if they are disagreeing with you, will be very unhappy if you do this, where they might have 'let you off just this once' otherwise.

The person in question may have 'failed the attitude test' but still done nothing wrong. They could still have spoken with the neccesary manners, even if they seemed very cold, and not have broken any relevant rules. For this specific situation I really don't know what might have happened.

 

[IanXC]

You are incorrect. There is no requirement to miss a connection at an interchange station to buy a ticket there..

Whilst I would agree that one is not expected to miss a connection, I would also suggest 'a connection' is a defined term:

20. Changing trains If your journey requires a change of trains, you must allow sufficient time to make your connection when selecting the trains you wish to use. Train times shown at www.nationalrail.co.uk or on any journey plan provided by a Train Company or Licenced Retailer will allow sufficient time for making your change of trains. You can also ask for advice on this when purchasing your Ticket at a station.

(If we ignore the fact NRE does not, in fact, list minimum connection times).

Absolutely not, though if you had deliberately left below the minimum connection time at a station then they could likely request you do so if this then provides you with sufficient time. I think this would be fair.
Had you missed the connection due to being forced to purchase a ticket you would have been entitled to delay repay if you were over the threshold at your destination.

I would agree, that this is a suitable interpretation; one cannot expect to change trains in less than the advertised time, but one also cannot expect not to use this time to purchase a ticket should this be suitable time to do so.

 

[farleigh]

It's where people who are rude get the rules applied to the letter, and where the letter allows for discretion the least accommodating discretion is used.

There is no need to be "subservient", just polite.

Thanks Bletchleyite, I understand what you mean.

 

[robbeech]

I would agree, that this is a suitable interpretation; one cannot expect to change trains in less than the advertised time, but one also cannot expect not to use this time to purchase a ticket should this be suitable time to do so.

Unfortunately some people’s views appear to differ. There has to be a line and we should all try to cooperate where we can in my opinion. An example of the above scenario.
I often get a train from Kiveton Park to Sheffield then Sheffield to Leeds. If the train is on time and a platform is available I can often arrive at Sheffield at **48 and get the **50 which is more often than not on the adjacent bay platform. This is of course not meeting the minimum connection time at Sheffield (7 minutes) but works quite well as it’s an ‘express’ service. However, on some occasions due to a busy train or a broken machine or something else the guard will not present themselves and I am unable to purchase a ticket on the first train. When this is the case I don’t make that connection, instead alighting at Sheffield or if the train continues onwards I will choose Meadowhall as it is easier to purchase a ticket. And wait for the next Leeds Service.
This won’t be an issue after the May timetable change as it will be a through train it seems.

 

[VauxhallandI]

Really??
I can assure you that it does happen in other places, from restaurants to shops, hospitals to the Police.
Try being rude and aggressive to a waiter and then don't look too close at your dinner or coffee later.
Be rude to a shop assistant and you might be surprised how long they can take to deal with you or what discounts you won't get offered.
Try being rude to a Policeman when he stops you for some reason; what could have resulted in a warning can soon change to a fine or arrest.

And even signallers can be very awkward when people blow their horns at us at level crossings because we aren't quick enough the raise the barriers, or worse, if railway buffs ask for visits and don't bring cakes and biscuits!!

Bar the police who tend to know what they are talking about the others are not relevant in my eyes. A waiter hasn't ever landed someone in court or delayed a journey with the consequences of that happening. I'd just leave the restaurant and I wouldn't necessarily be obliged to pay for those services.

 

[falcon]

What is an attitude test?

Is it where people with a subservient demeanour get nicer rules applied to them?

That is correct.

The person with authority has forgot they are a public servant and has become personally involved in enforcing the rules.

Because the person enforcing the rules is a week individual he will seek to make judgments based on whether the individual is nice,subservient(mainly) and conveys an appearance of obedience. Personal predujice also comes into it, IE male, female, age, apperance, even tone of voice. None of which have any bearing on whether the rule was broke or not.

And on doing so will enforce the rule in question if the person does not appear subservient.

The person in authority will justify that sort of inconsistent behaviour by say "that they obeyed me so they are obeying societies rules". Regardless of whether the person had broke them or not.

That's why machines are good at enforcing the law. Many a copper with penalty points on his licence now that before speed cameras would have walked.

 

[IanXC]

Unfortunately some people’s views appear to differ. There has to be a line and we should all try to cooperate where we can in my opinion. An example of the above scenario.
I often get a train from Kiveton Park to Sheffield then Sheffield to Leeds. If the train is on time and a platform is available I can often arrive at Sheffield at **48 and get the **50 which is more often than not on the adjacent bay platform. This is of course not meeting the minimum connection time at Sheffield (7 minutes) but works quite well as it’s an ‘express’ service. However, on some occasions due to a busy train or a broken machine or something else the guard will not present themselves and I am unable to purchase a ticket on the first train. When this is the case I don’t make that connection, instead alighting at Sheffield or if the train continues onwards I will choose Meadowhall as it is easier to purchase a ticket. And wait for the next Leeds Service.
This won’t be an issue after the May timetable change as it will be a through train it seems.

There are indeed many views and many differing situations which make a blanket answer difficult. I think in your example there, that you could not reasonably expect to make the on time connection from the **48 to the **50 without being in possession of a ticket. I do however rather like your Meadowhall solution where of course you would have to go past the ticket office to make your connection.

 

[najaB]

That's why machines are good at enforcing the law.

I'll remind you of this post the next time you use the phrase 'why didn't they show some discretion'.

 

[VauxhallandI]

I'll remind you of this post the next time you use the phrase 'why didn't they show some discretion'.

Yes discretion when the TOC can offer something above and beyond to the customer such as travelling on an alternative service with an advance ticket. Not discretion when the TOC has got it wrong.