Northern cancellations creeping up again?

[AndyHudds]

Sure that applies on the railway as well - the issue is that in half term weeks fewer people will volunteer to give up their rest days/work overtime. Would you (for example) say yes to a request at less than 24 hours notice on a Sunday that happens to be the day you’re taking your children out on a special pre-booked trip?

I fully understand this, the problem here is the lack of employer, in this instance, organisation in terms of getting this kind of thing sorted well in advance. They need to be more proactive. I don't know the inner workings and machinations of Northern but sounds to me like a shoddy set up.

 

[43066]

There is a reason why buses, taxis, FOCs and open access are all working.

Their livelihoods depend on doing what their customers are paying for. On the franchised, nationalised railway this is not the case.

In the case of open access and FOCs that’s because they a. employ sufficient staff to run a robust service, and b. to the extent they rely on overtime (and they do), they incentivise staff properly.

Northern currently do neither.

 

[Dore & Totley]

To be direct, you should think about the customer experience and how you are driving people away.

Next week I will be going in by car because I can't trust the service provided by the railways any more.

I am confused. Are you saying staff should be giving up their days off to cover because the company do not employ enough staff?

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Northern have had many drivers and guards leave this year, either to other TOCs or leaving the industry!
They can’t replace them quickly enough.
Another problem is the training takes way longer than it should. Plus operational issues. And a poor standard of applications coming through for new staff (one is use of AI to complete applications). I don’t know what the answer is, but I’d expect the problem will get a lot worse before it starts to improve.

If you're continually having your stuff pinched by other TOCs you either make it more attractive for them to stay or more difficult for them to leave.

 

[celdor]

Looks like 6 cancellations today - classed as MINOR disruptions??? on airport route

 

[Harpo]

To be direct, you should think about the customer experience and how you are driving people away.

Thats the role of those at the very top of the organisation. There’s little that frontline staff in any chronically understaffed organisation can do to turn the company around.

 

[celdor]

Tomorrow 3 and a half cancelled ( it does show as such til you figure out it has a change at deansgate
and the second train is cancelled.)

 

[Old Yard Dog]

With a number of sporting events in Leeds and Bradford today, Northern chose or were forced to put just a 2-car set on the 1028 from Chester. This led to serious overcrowding which led to door problems which the driver had to rectify at Todmorden. Was the 2-car set due to lack of stock or lack of forethought?

 

[skyhigh]

With a number of sporting events in Leeds and Bradford today, Northern chose or were forced to put just a 2-car set on the 1028 from Chester. This led to serious overcrowding which led to door problems which the driver had to rectify at Todmorden. Was the 2-car set due to lack of stock or lack of forethought?

Lack of (working) stock

 

[jayah]

Thats the role of those at the very top of the organisation. There’s little that frontline staff in any chronically understaffed organisation can do to turn the company around.

The ORR data portal is useful for validating this assertion.

Northern Train Key Statistics 2023/2024

Passenger Train Km operated (millions)
2019-2020 = 56.4
2023-2024 = 49.3
Change = (-12.6%)

Headcount (FTE)
31 March 2020 = 6,351
31 March 2024 = 6,957
Change = 9.5%

9.5% more staff, to perform 12.6% less activity, is a difficult set of figures to pass off as chronically understaffed!

 

[muz379]

This puzzles me, the half term and school holiday issue. Just because you have children it does not automatically give you the right, unless you have a term time only contract or an annualised hours contract, to take school holidays.

An employer should only grant leave on a first come first serve basis on what the service/business can accommodate. If Northern are letting too many people have school holidays on the basis that employees have kids and it's causing issues with fulfilling the service they offer one has to ask what the heck are they doing that for?

I work for a public sector employer snd if the time off is fully booked up you don't get it.

Leave on the railay tends to be based on quotas . For example if you have 100 drivers at a depot , you might have 6 allowed a day off on leave any particular day .

Depot establishment figures are built with a proportion of spare turns in mind to cover for annual leave - and other circumstances . But it is a fine balance

The problem comes when you are short of staff , that quota is full , and you have less or no people volunteering to work their rest day

One thing that does keep being thrown out is the percentage of sickness being higher compared to pre covid . Covid restrictions were all lifted by late 2021 . Perhas at some point it needs to be accepted that this is the new level and therefore establishment figures adjusted accordingly .

 

[Halish Railway]

Looks like 6 cancellations today - classed as MINOR disruptions??? on airport route

View attachment 168390

This has been caused by a trespassing incident at Slade Lane Jn that has caused the Styal lines to be blocked.

 

[bengley]

I probably am. But I still need to get to work on time as I quite like the income it brings in to pay the mortgage.

Maybe you need to wobble your head whilst thinking about how all actions or even inactions have consequences.

I've never seen such a misinformed and quite frankly moronic bunch of comments by one person on this forum before!

Staff are allowed to take their days off. There are no consequences to this. If staff aren't allowed to have days off, what's the point in them coming in and earning money if they can't enjoy a day off to spend their money on themselves/their families?

The operator is the problem here - they do not have enough staff to cover their advertised service.

 

[CHESHIRECAT]

The Piccadilly/Alderley Edge shuttles seem badly affected... (having just resumed after Piccadilly platform closures)
(This was prior to Slade Lane issue)

 

[800001]

This has been caused by a trespassing incident at Slade Lane Jn that has caused the Styal lines to be blocked.

The post you replied to was wrote this morning, long before this afternoons trespass at Slade Lane junction.

 

[Old Yard Dog]

Further chaos caused by 1741 back from Leeds being 2-car. It was late into MCV and diverted from P3 to P5 to let the PTE through. But if this was announced, nobody heard it so loads of CTR passengers got on the Liverpool train. I had to advise many to change at Newton le Willows as the TPE conductor didn’t make a special announcement. I caught the earlier 4-car train to MCV knowing the CTR train would be a sardine can. I’d hate to be a “normal” on days like this!

Victoria was like a madhouse as very few trains were running to CTR and LIV from Piccadilly

 

[Harpo]

The ORR data portal is useful for validating this assertion.

Northern Train Key Statistics 2023/2024

Passenger Train Km operated (millions)
2019-2020 = 56.4
2023-2024 = 49.3
Change = (-12.6%)

Headcount (FTE)
31 March 2020 = 6,351
31 March 2024 = 6,957
Change = 9.5%

9.5% more staff, to perform 12.6% less activity, is a difficult set of figures to pass off as chronically understaffed!

It’s also a meaningless set of numbers as it doesn’t show the full establishment, resultant vacancy gap, how many are in training/unproductive, or a breakdown of the all that missing data by grade.

 

[Bikeman78]

It’s also a meaningless set of numbers as it doesn’t show the full establishment, resultant vacancy gap, how many are in training/unproductive, or a breakdown of the all that missing data by grade.

I think that Northern needs to face reality and adjust the base timetable to match the number of train crew it can reasonably expect to be available for work. I don't mean fiddling around for a few weeks like XC; I mean change the permanent timetable like TPE did and keep it at that level until more crew have been recruited and trained. Remaining services should be booked for the maximum length that the fleet and platform lengths can cope with.

In the medium and longer term, TOCs that are always short of crew need to try and work out why and then figure out a solution. Why are they always short of crew? Do other TOCs nearby pay more? Are they just so awful to work for that people want to escape as soon as possible?

 

[td97]

Lack of (working) stock

How are Northern short of stock on a weekend with several routes closed due to pre-planned engineering work (all routes from Blackburn)? On top of several unit diagrams cancelled due to "short notice change to the timetable", i.e. pre-planned cancellations.

 

[skyhigh]

How are Northern short of stock on a weekend with several routes closed due to pre-planned engineering work (all routes from Blackburn)? On top of several unit diagrams cancelled due to "short notice change to the timetable", i.e. pre-planned cancellations.

Are the units in the right place, or is there someone available to move them into position to strengthen?

195 fleet availability is also poor, I wouldn't be surprised if planned stoppages are ongoing when lines are shut for work so that the maintenance backlog can be tackled.

 

[Geeves]

I think that Northern needs to face reality and adjust the base timetable to match the number of train crew it can reasonably expect to be available for work. I don't mean fiddling around for a few weeks like XC; I mean change the permanent timetable like TPE did and keep it at that level until more crew have been recruited and trained. Remaining services should be booked for the maximum length that the fleet and platform lengths can cope with.

In the medium and longer term, TOCs that are always short of crew need to try and work out why and then figure out a solution. Why are they always short of crew? Do other TOCs nearby pay more? Are they just so awful to work for that people want to escape as soon as possible?

The guards issue will be sorted as soon they accept the guards proposal which still works out at a quarter of what the drivers are getting for their RDW. Otherwise expect to see bus replacements throughout the festive period.

If you want "northern to face reality" you can expect many lines to have zero trains because folks don't want to work overtime when it isn't worth it

 

[Killingworth]

Unfortunately 'the railway' is victim to its history. Victorian infrastructure built to meet Victorian markets. That included people happy to walk a mile to a station because even the safety bicycle hadn't been introduced.

Over decades management at Northern in particular have failed to understand that running so many trains based on volunteers requires an incredible amount of goodwill and dedication - and money.

It's now apparent that the whole operation is too complicated to work. I see that half the trains on my route have been cancelled already today. That's the 11th badly disrupted Sunday on the trot. It's hard enough getting people out of cars when all trains run. Those people who have got used to using trains are now back to cars.

The great British public couldn't care less who's fault it is. 'The railway' is unreliable. Avoid it.

I wish I could see a quick way for Northern to resolve this and operate the timetables they created. Can anyone?

 

[richfoz84]

If you're continually having your stuff pinched by other TOCs you either make it more attractive for them to stay or more difficult for them to leave.

You’d think so, yes. But the reality is this wasn’t happening.

See also the earlier comment about turnover at Piccadilly - one of the things which probably works against Northern is that by definition most of their staff will be based around the major cities in Northern England so ripe for being poached when the long-distance operators are hiring qualified drivers on better money.

Agreed, I left Piccadilly for a different toc who pay better, and have better t’s & c’s.

Hopefully GBR will impose a more orderly system of transfers, rather than letting everyone jump ship willy-nilly.

I dont think people are leaving willy nilly. Theres many factors involved. Northern has a very toxic working atmosphere (my opinion). But yes maybe GBR can overhaul it and allow a better working relationship across toc’s to allow staff retention etc

How long should training take in your opinion?

Well my training took 18 months, from starting in the classroom to passing out. Many factors out of my control slowed it down. You’d hope to be operational in half that time really.

 

[jayah]

The guards issue will be sorted as soon they accept the guards proposal which still works out at a quarter of what the drivers are getting for their RDW. Otherwise expect to see bus replacements throughout the festive period.

Northern don't run bus replacements when there are crew shortages, they tell everybody to make their own arrangements.

 

[jayah]

I dont think people are leaving willy nilly. Theres many factors involved. Northern has a very toxic working atmosphere (my opinion). But yes maybe GBR can overhaul it and allow a better working relationship across toc’s to

I think that Northern needs to face reality and adjust the base timetable to match the number of train crew it can reasonably expect to be available for work. I don't mean fiddling around for a few weeks like XC; I mean change the permanent timetable like TPE did and keep it at that level until more crew have been recruited and trained. Remaining services should be booked for the maximum length that the fleet and platform lengths can cope with.

In the medium and longer term, TOCs that are always short of crew need to try and work out why and then figure out a solution. Why are they always short of crew? Do other TOCs nearby pay more? Are they just so awful to work for that people want to escape as soon as possible?

At the Rail North Committee meeting in July, Northern were adamant they will only take out trains in the short term plan and have been true to their word since.

The worst thing is they were sitting in a room next to TPE and Avanti both of whom have been in a similar position and turned it around, both of whom took down the long term timetable to do so.

There was a lot of discussion about the traincrew shortages, but 'can you explain how you fixed this' wasn't a part of it.

 

[scrapy]

I dont think people are leaving willy nilly. Theres many factors involved. Northern has a very toxic working atmosphere (my opinion). But yes maybe GBR can overhaul it and allow a better working relationship across toc’s to allow staff retention etc

I think there is a particular problem at Piccadilly for conductors with managers setting unrealistic revenue targets far higher than other depots and looking for every possible fault. The conductors are treated like school children.

There is very little by way reward and everything Serco Abellio did such as Christmas vouchers, fun days etc has gone, wages haven't kept up with inflation. Diagrams are regularly altered (not in the conductors favour), plus there's all the fallout from passengers over the state of the current service. I have heard around 15 will be leaving before the end of the year so things will get worse.

Why would someone get up at 2.30am or get home at a similar time to get abuse all day and hassle of managers who don't value them, when they can earn similar doing many other jobs? Especially when you take into account a car is pretty essential for most for the shift times.

 

[uww11x]

Just stop publishing fictional timetables every 6 months. Cut down services and concentrate on running a smaller service well.

 

[Bikeman78]

195 fleet availability is also poor,

What a surprise! How are the 150s and 156s doing? I bet they have better availability.

The guards issue will be sorted as soon they accept the guards proposal which still works out at a quarter of what the drivers are getting for their RDW. Otherwise expect to see bus replacements throughout the festive period.

If you want "northern to face reality" you can expect many lines to have zero trains because folks don't want to work overtime when it isn't worth it

That's precisely my point. You cannot run a reliable railway based on that amount of overtime. Better to have an hourly service that runs 99% of the time than a pie in the sky timetable with hundreds of daily cancellations.

 

[richfoz84]

I think there is a particular problem at Piccadilly for conductors with managers setting unrealistic revenue targets far higher than other depots and looking for every possible fault. The conductors are treated like school children.

There is very little by way reward and everything Serco Abellio did such as Christmas vouchers, fun days etc has gone, wages haven't kept up with inflation. Diagrams are regularly altered (not in the conductors favour), plus there's all the fallout from passengers over the state of the current service. I have heard around 15 will be leaving before the end of the year so things will get worse.

Why would someone get up at 2.30am or get home at a similar time to get abuse all day and hassle of managers who don't value them, when they can earn similar doing many other jobs? Especially when you take into account a car is pretty essential for most for the shift times.

Fully agree. Seen all that when I was at Northern. Guards jobs are not desirable. They don’t get paid enough or treated fairly at all.

 

[Killingworth]

I think there is a particular problem at Piccadilly for conductors with managers setting unrealistic revenue targets far higher than other depots and looking for every possible fault. The conductors are treated like school children.

There is very little by way reward and everything Serco Abellio did such as Christmas vouchers, fun days etc has gone, wages haven't kept up with inflation. Diagrams are regularly altered (not in the conductors favour), plus there's all the fallout from passengers over the state of the current service. I have heard around 15 will be leaving before the end of the year so things will get worse.

Why would someone get up at 2.30am or get home at a similar time to get abuse all day and hassle of managers who don't value them, when they can earn similar doing many other jobs? Especially when you take into account a car is pretty essential for most for the shift times.

There certainly is a problem at Piccadilly and it's long been reported that it's mainly a west side issue. That may still be true but hourly stopping services between Sheffield and Doncaster are losing at least 5 trains today, with gaps in service of 3 hours. There may be other east side cancellation issues today?