Northern City Line not fit for purpose

[Downthelane]

This week has proved yet again that the line into Moorgate is simply not up to the required standards to run a modern railway.

The Class 313 is going but is the infrastructure?

The signalling has to be the most unreliable on the entire network.

Any slight change in weather and the signalling and track equipment fails.

This is the Achilles heel of the TL/GN plan.

 

[Bald Rick]

This week has proved yet again that the line into Moorgate is simply not up to the required standards to run a modern railway.

The Class 313 is going but is the infrastructure?

The signalling has to be the most unreliable on the entire network.

Any slight change in weather and the signalling and track equipment fails.

This is the Achilles heel of the TL/GN plan.

The signalling is being renewed In the next couple of years. The unreliable bit is the tripcocks.

Indeed, it is possible that it will be ETCS and ATO before too long.

 

[THC]

And the stations need doing up - cosmetic rather than infrastructural, but important all the same. Those underground are well past their sell-by date. NSE running-in boards? How will the 717s look against those?

THC

 

[Malcolmffc]

Such a shame the line wasn’t transferred to TfL - it’d have been spruced up in no time.

 

[Downthelane]

The Crossrail project should have been scoped to include the tunnel work to expand Moorgate GNE and provide at least one more platform, or linking it to whatever is left of the original TL platforms.

 

[jopsuk]

Platforms 9 and 10, the Great Northern and City, are quite a distance below and at right angles to platforms 5 & 6, the redundant Widened Lines/Thameslink platforms, and the nearest part of each to the other are the buffer stops. Connecting one to the other would be possible if you used corkscrew rollercoaster tracks and trains.

 

[Downthelane]

Noted, so any linking would be impossible? Ok so what other options are there or are you suggesting Moorgate will NEVER lend itself to any underground improvement?

 

[jon0844]

The stations are back to being dark as dust has clouded the diffusers on the lights. They were cleaned 5 or 6 years ago (can't remember exactly) and for some time they were a lot brighter.

I am sure many people love the old NSE signs but ultimately the stations do look quite grim, but so well used it clearly doesn't put people off.

TfL has little to no care about the state of those platforms and know that GN will get the blame, so why bother?

A bigger issue, perhaps, is accessibility and I am sure no BIG investment to improve stuff like that would ever happen until LO took over.

 

[yorksrob]

So basically, the stations need a good scrub and a lick of paint.

 

[Downthelane]

Certainly not just the appearance although it is dire and Old Street is one of the most dark and depressing stations on the entire network.

The key issue is reliability, you have 43 year old stock running on two slow lines that are undermined by all manner of failures particularly when it's cold or wet.

One failure brings the entire route to a standstill.

This week trains have been diverted into KGX every day.

Delays out of Moorgate impact the GN and will undermine the revised services from May.

Personally I would wait for the 717's to be in full service and using ATO before implementing the full timetable.

That is possibly why 24TPH has been delayed?

 

[Maurice3000]

When I am in a Crayonista mood I picture this line moving to London Overground. When Moorgate and Liverpool Street are turned into a single station complex by the opening of Crossrail, Moorgate is suddenly much more than a terminus for some people working in the City. Up the frequency and suddenly areas such as Highbury & Islington, Finsbury Park, Harringay and Alexandra Palace have quick and easy access to Crossrail and the Central Line.

The problem is that they probably go too far out of London for TfL to wanting to or being allowed to be involved. That said, perhaps LO could run alongside the existing service and terminate their service in Zone 5 or 6.

 

[Ianno87]

When I am in a Crayonista mood I picture this line moving to London Overground. When Moorgate and Liverpool Street are turned into a single station complex by the opening of Crossrail, Moorgate is suddenly much more than a terminus for some people working in the City. Up the frequency and suddenly areas such as Highbury & Islington, Finsbury Park, Harringay and Alexandra Palace have quick and easy access to Crossrail and the Central Line.

The problem is that they probably go too far out of London for TfL to wanting to or being allowed to be involved. That said, perhaps LO could run alongside the existing service and terminate their service in Zone 5 or 6.

The Northern City-Central interchange will be hideous - you have to enter one end of the Crossrail station, leave the other and still transit the NR station concourse in the procees. You're just as well transferring at street level via Finsbury Circus, as today.

I'm not sure what useful connections it actually gives anyway.

Stratford you can do via LO from Highbury
West End via Vic Line from Highbury
St Pauls area via Thameslink from Finsbury Park

 

[jopsuk]

Stevenage is only a couple of miles further from Charing Cross (the accepted centre point of London) than Chesham, on the Metropolitan line. Welwyn is as far out as Shenfield. TfL have in the past made noises about taking over the Moorgate services

 

[jon0844]

It was rumoured for years and then I think actually got announced as a plan, but financial issues and the DfT having other ideas could stop it happening.

But LO goes to Cheshunt (zone 8?) and WGC was at one point going to be included in the zonal system. Indeed Oyster itself goes right up to Hertford East, so WGC and Hertford North would make sense.

While signal sighting issues need to be fixed for the 717s I think very little else will be done for a while.

 

[Fred26]

Would it be at all feasible to create a new branch from the Northern Line? Coming from the south the Northern Line already stops at Moorgate and Old Street, after that a new branch could rise to Essex Road, Highbury & Islington, Drayton Park, Finsbury Park and then onto Highgate. Going southbound the line could branch off after Bank to Fenchurch Street, then towards the south-east.
I'd give the line a new name. Obvious downside would be the sharing of tracks between Old Street and Bank, but adding extra tunnels would be very expensive and may even be insurmountable in that area.
If this idea came to fruition the current Moorgate and Old Street NCL platforms would be permanently closed.

Welwyn services would all go via the core, as would the Hertford's.

 

[A0wen]

The biggest problem with the NCL is capacity. The platforms cannot be easily extended - which limits the train lengths.

Extending the line beyond Moorgate is now a much bigger challenge with Crossrail in the way.

It's very difficult to see how it can be improved - beyond straightforward cosmetic works at some of the stations.

 

[bramling]

The biggest problem with the NCL is capacity. The platforms cannot be easily extended - which limits the train lengths.

Extending the line beyond Moorgate is now a much bigger challenge with Crossrail in the way.

It's very difficult to see how it can be improved - beyond straightforward cosmetic works at some of the stations.

It would be by no means a bad thing to run Thameslink trains on a proportion of Welwyn / Hertford services. 8-car 700s deliver a much-needed capacity boost from 6 cars to 8, and then use 12-car 700s on stopping GN services, again delivering a capacity boost from 8 cars to 12. Then Cambridge and Peterborough keep trains and services more appropriate to their distance from London.

 

[ainsworth74]

It's very difficult to see how it can be improved - beyond straightforward cosmetic works at some of the stations.

Beyond renewed signalling infrastructure, new rolling stock and a cosmetic revamp of stations what improvements are actually needed?

 

[AM9]

The biggest problem with the NCL is capacity. The platforms cannot be easily extended - which limits the train lengths.

Extending the line beyond Moorgate is now a much bigger challenge with Crossrail in the way.

It's very difficult to see how it can be improved - beyond straightforward cosmetic works at some of the stations.

There were a couple of suggestions a few years ago that maybe the DLR could be extended beyond Bank, (at the time it was to Farringdon using the ex widened lines from Moorgate to terminate between the LU and Thameslink lines). Speculation was that the positioning of the terminally driven DLR sheild would have prevented a simple link to be made, and of course the situation is now further complicated by Crossrail. Does anybody here know what the relative levels of LU/DLR/XR lines are in that area and whether any further extension could be made from the DLR Bank stub?

 

[Class 170101]

I could see Crossrail 2 assisting here.
It is proposed that a branch of Crossrail 2 run to New Southgate. I would extend that to Welwyn Garden City. This would take pressure of the NCL as passengers wouldn't need to travel to Moorgate and then the Circle Line to reach Euston / St Pancras. Those services no longer running to Welwyn from Moorgate could be diverted to Hertford North providing a better service on said branch.

 

[reytomas1228]

With regards to accessibility om the NCL, does anyone here know if the step-free access works done for Crossrail at Moorgate will include the NCL platforms? I would think that since they are directly above the Northern line platforms, which are getting lifts, that they would also gain step-free access. However, all the plans that I have see are very unclear.

 

[Bald Rick]

There were a couple of suggestions a few years ago that maybe the DLR could be extended beyond Bank, (at the time it was to Farringdon using the ex widened lines from Moorgate to terminate between the LU and Thameslink lines). Speculation was that the positioning of the terminally driven DLR sheild would have prevented a simple link to be made, and of course the situation is now further complicated by Crossrail. Does anybody here know what the relative levels of LU/DLR/XR lines are in that area and whether any further extension could be made from the DLR Bank stub?

The DLR is deepest of them all. The turnback / overrun tunnels are directly beneath the northern line, and finishers roughly beneath the Grocer's Hall off Princes St.

Unfortunately, Crossrail is in the way. The Westbound Crossrail tunnel is a matter of meters beyond the end of the NCL tunnels, at roughly the same level, so the NCL is non-extendable. And because of the Northern line directly below, any NCL extension means new tunnels from near Essex Road.

I could see Crossrail 2 assisting here.
It is proposed that a branch of Crossrail 2 run to New Southgate. I would extend that to Welwyn Garden City. This would take pressure of the NCL as passengers wouldn't need to travel to Moorgate and then the Circle Line to reach Euston / St Pancras. Those services no longer running to Welwyn from Moorgate could be diverted to Hertford North providing a better service on said branch.

Passengers from the ECML suburban service heading for St Pancras don't go to Moorgate and get the Circle. They change at Finsbury Park or H&I.

Also Crossrail 2 is very firmly a seperate railway and on one side of the ECML at New Southgate; to extend to Welwyn would need grade separation, additional platforms at New Southgate (as less than a third of CR2 services could carry on north), and the removal of the NCL services up to WGC. This also removes all connectivity from most stations to WGC and Finsbury Park, and getting from say Hornsey to New Barnet would be quite a challenge.

 

[Class 170101]

Why would you need grade separation at New Southgate?

Surely it would be better for the tunnel portals to be separate either side of the ECML? I don't see New Southgate as an area to generate much traffic or demand to it. Nor do I see the logic of building a depot in inner London when there is space and an existing (under used) carriage sidings site at Welwyn is available and serving the stations will also generate traffic for the line

I don't see much demand across New Southgate in respect of Hornsey or Haringay to be honest

 

[marcmck]

With funding environment at the minute difficult and priorities for new investment being Crossrail 2, bakerloo line extension etc - this is blue sky (crayon) thinking...
But I’ve always thought the way to increase the utility of this link and to overcome the problems of short platforms, the limited turnaround capacity of Moorgate, the barriers of Crossrail & Bank of England vaults at the southern end was to re route the line, cutting holes into the exiting tunnels as done recently at Kennington for the NLE. I would do this from just north of old street creating new longer accessible platforms at old street, then to divert in a new tunnel to create an interchange at Liverpool st, then onwards in tunnel to London Bridge where it would continue to a tunnel portal south to take over a suitable line southwards. I think you would close Essex road, and incorporate platform lengthening into a much needed rebuild of Highbury and Islington which the only other underground platforms with this constraint. Don’t imagine it would be cheap but it seems to me that like with the LO/East London line you would create a new, high capacity cross London link by joining existing bits of infrastructure. You would create a direct connection between liv st and London Bridge, relieve the northern line between LB/city and improve accessibility of the line. Little map to illustrate as well

 

[DelW]

Would it be at all feasible to create a new branch from the Northern Line? Coming from the south the Northern Line already stops at Moorgate and Old Street, after that a new branch could rise to Essex Road, Highbury & Islington, Drayton Park, Finsbury Park and then onto Highgate.

That was not only planned, but construction was begun, by LT before World War 2. It was deferred during and after the war, and finally abandoned much later - maybe as late as the 1960s. The unused steelwork for the platform on the east side of Finsbury Park station was only finally removed around then. It was originally intended to run via Highgate and Edgware to a new terminus near Watford. IIRC what became the LT bus works at Aldenham was planned as the line's depot.
At that time the line between Moorgate and Finsbury Park was of course operated as an unconnected branch of the Northern Line. The line between FP and Highgate was retained for stock transfers for many years.

 

[Busaholic]

With funding environment at the minute difficult and priorities for new investment being Crossrail 2, bakerloo line extension etc - this is blue sky (crayon) thinking...
But I’ve always thought the way to increase the utility of this link and to overcome the problems of short platforms, the limited turnaround capacity of Moorgate, the barriers of Crossrail & Bank of England vaults at the southern end was to re route the line, cutting holes into the exiting tunnels as done recently at Kennington for the NLE. I would do this from just north of old street creating new longer accessible platforms at old street, then to divert in a new tunnel to create an interchange at Liverpool st, then onwards in tunnel to London Bridge where it would continue to a tunnel portal south to take over a suitable line southwards. I think you would close Essex road, and incorporate platform lengthening into a much needed rebuild of Highbury and Islington which the only other underground platforms with this constraint. Don’t imagine it would be cheap but it seems to me that like with the LO/East London line you would create a new, high capacity cross London link by joining existing bits of infrastructure. You would create a direct connection between liv st and London Bridge, relieve the northern line between LB/city and improve accessibility of the line. Little map to illustrate as wellView attachment 43454

Liverpool Street to London Bridge direct is much needed - it's such a short stretch, it's unrealistic for anyone who knows the geography to go through the hassle of entering and leaving the two stations and negotiate the bowels of Bank (or Moorgate) station as well, except possibly in inclement weather. Seems a very good proposal to me, but I won't live to see the start of constructing it!

 

[edwin_m]

Also Crossrail 2 is very firmly a seperate railway and on one side of the ECML at New Southgate; to extend to Welwyn would need grade separation, additional platforms at New Southgate (as less than a third of CR2 services could carry on north), and the removal of the NCL services up to WGC. This also removes all connectivity from most stations to WGC and Finsbury Park, and getting from say Hornsey to New Barnet would be quite a challenge.

Why would you need grade separation at New Southgate?

Surely it would be better for the tunnel portals to be separate either side of the ECML?

If most of the CR2 services would turn back (ECML capacity would only allow the same number to go through as the NCL trains they replaced) then having the tunnel portals either side makes it worse - the through trains wouldn't have to cross on the flat but the terminators would.

That was not only planned, but construction was begun, by LT before World War 2. It was deferred during and after the war, and finally abandoned much later - maybe as late as the 1960s. The unused steelwork for the platform on the east side of Finsbury Park station was only finally removed around then. It was originally intended to run via Highgate and Edgware to a new terminus near Watford. IIRC what became the LT bus works at Aldenham was planned as the line's depot.
At that time the line between Moorgate and Finsbury Park was of course operated as an unconnected branch of the Northern Line. The line between FP and Highgate was retained for stock transfers for many years.

All correct, except it would have terminated at a Bushey Heath station (nowhere near the village of that name) but the station would be designed to allow extension to Watford later. However as far as I'm aware there was never any plan to run through from the Northern City line to the Northern Line proper at Moorgate. If that had happened then every train via Old Street would have meant one train fewer via Angel.

There was incidentally a much earlier plan to extend the GN&C (as it then was) from Moorgate to Lothbury, which got as far as making a start on tunneling but was then abandoned. The tunnelling shield is still there in one of the Moorgate overrun tunnels.

 

[Class 170101]

If most of the CR2 services would turn back (ECML capacity would only allow the same number to go through as the NCL trains they replaced) then having the tunnel portals either side makes it worse - the through trains wouldn't have to cross on the flat but the terminators would.

Do we know that most CR2 services would turn back at New Southgate?

However if some went through to Welwyn and some terminated at New Southgate why would the starters have to cross on the flat at New Southgate? Surely ther design of the new railway would build this constraint out? I would have thought a crossover tunnel could be constructed.

Currently the Metro service to Welwyn is three per hour off peak and 6 per hour at peak times. I am surprised that is enough capacity today never mind in 10 to 15 years time.

 

[Fred26]

Isn't the New Southgate CR2 station planned to be underground? I'm sure it's planned as a separate entity to the current station (directly beneath it, I thought).

 

[goblinuser]

Finsbury Park and then onto Highgate

How would you do this? Using the nature reserve Parkland walk?