Northern Class 158 Driving Technique

[Kurolus Rex]

Note: I'm aware there is already a thread similar to this, however i want a more definitive answer regarding the Class 158s in use with Northern, specifically on the Hull-Scarborough line.

I'm mostly concerned about pulling out of stations here.

Obviously, for stations with say only a 20mph speed limit, you aren't going to be exceeding Notch 3 or 4. But for stations with "normal" speed limits (ie 40mph or higher) which Notches would be used and at what speeds?

This does of course vary depending on the driver, but i believe established at least part of the technique:

Notch 3,
Notch 4 once rolling.

After this it's not too clear from videos and other sources online.

In this video for example, the train sounds as though it starts in Notch 3, then sometimes goes into Notch 4 and then goes straight into Notch 7 almost instantly after or a little after leaving the station.

Outside this video though i haven't found much which confirms this.

This has remained a mystery to me for months now and i haven't found anything of value, so if anyone could help me with this that would be greatly appreciated!

 

[Llama]

Northern suggest a semi-progressive approach to taking traction power on Sprinter type stock, ideally 3-5-7. Full traction power shouldn't be taken on restrictive signal aspects though.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Northern suggest a semi-progressive approach to taking traction power on Sprinter type stock, ideally 3-5-7. Full traction power shouldn't be taken on restrictive signal aspects though.

Hmmmm, i do see this sequence being used on other routes (ie Settle-Carlisle) however from the dozens upon dozens of videos I've watched on the Hull-Scarborough line it seems like the driver only goes into Notch 4 initially. What happens after that appears to be a mystery

 

[Llama]

The difference between notch 3 and 4 is very little, it takes a bit of attention to be able to differentiate without seeing exactly what the driver is doing (or listening to the relays at the #2 end of the vehicle).

I should've added that the Perkins engined units are quite different to the Cummins units (both varieties of Cummins, 350 or 400hp) in their distribution of power vs notch selected. A Perkins engined unit won't really move with much intent when starting away until power notch 5 is selected, notches 1-4 are not so much different to notches 1-2 on a Cummins unit. If starting away on a steep rising incline on a Perkins 158 then notch 5 is needed to avoid the risk of rolling back. When Northern first received Perkins units in 2007 (ex Wessex/Wales & Borders units) the Operations Standards dept had no idea of the differences in driving technique required when starting away and it took some correspondence from a decent Man Victoria driver who was invited to Ops Standards to explain the differences and to perform some demonstration runs between Leeds and York. The concerns were that if an OTMR was interrogated for an unobtrusive driver assessment on a Perkins unit it might be seen to be driven aggressively, needing higher power notches to get it shifting than a Cummins unit - which had been the norm around what became the Northern area since 158s were introduced.

The different Cummins units (350/400hp) are virtually the same to drive, and in practice the difference in power is difficult to notice on all the 400hp units I have driven compared to an average 350hp unit. There are 350hp units that are quicker off the mark than 400hp units even taking into account that maximum engine output is inhibited until the low-pseed relay operates at about 5mph. It is worth noting that (as far as I am aware) the 400hp units actually have a lower maximum engine rpm than the 350hp Cummins units. The difference in engine output is largely down to a much bigger intercooler. Both 350 and 400hp have the same engine displacement at 855 cu.in, or about 14 litres.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

The difference between notch 3 and 4 is very little, it takes a bit of attention to be able to differentiate without seeing exactly what the driver is doing (or listening to the relays at the #2 end of the vehicle).
I should've added that the Perkins engined units are quite different to the Cummins units (both varieties of Cummins, 350 or 400hp) in their distribution of power vs notch selected. A Perkins engined unit won't really move with much intent when starting away until power notch 5 is selected, notches 1-4 are not so much different to notches 1-2 on a Cummins unit. If starting away on a steep rising incline on a Perkins 158 then notch 5 is needed to avoid the risk of rolling back. When Northern first received Perkins units in 2007 (ex Wessex/Wales & Borders units) the Operations Standards dept had no idea of the differences in driving technique required when starting away and it took some correspondence from a decent Man Victoria driver who was invited to Ops Standards to explain the differences and to perform some demonstration runs between Leeds and York. The concerns were that if an OTMR was interrogated for an unobtrusive driver assessment on a Perkins unit it might be seen to be driven aggressively, needing higher power notches to get it shifting than a Cummins unit - which had been the norm around what became the Northern area since 158s were introduced.

The different Cummins units (350/400hp) are virtually the same to drive, and in practice the difference in power is difficult to notice on all the 400hp units I have driven compared to an average 350hp unit. There are 350hp units that are quicker off the mark than 400hp units even taking into account that maximum engine output is inhibited until the low-pseed relay operates at about 5mph. It is worth noting that (as far as I am aware) the 400hp units actually have a lower maximum engine rpm than the 350hp Cummins units. The difference in engine output is largely down to a much bigger intercooler. Both 350 and 400hp have the same engine displacement at 855 cu.in, or about 14 litres.

Hmm, well using this video could you possibly try and identify if it's Notch 4 or 5? (Not the best audio, was trying my hardest to find the best example.)

That channel has a wealth of videos of 158s on the Hull-Scarborough if you'd like to take a more thorough look.

My theory is that because of how loud these trains are it's not possible to hear the step-up from Notch 4 to Notch 5 when the train is passing you.

Thanks for the insight by the way, it's good to hear from a real driver!

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Also, sorry if i sound a bit naggy but if the technique does differ at all, what would the "normal" technique be on other lines? Which Notches would be selected at what speeds?

In this video at Hebden Bridge it sounds as though the driver starts in Notch 3, then goes into Notch 5 at approx 5mph and then into 7 at approx 15mph.

 

[whoosh]

Don't know if it helps, but class 170s don't actually give you more than notch 5 (out of 7) until 10mph is reached, even if you've selected it. You can hear the click of the relay in the cab wall behind you.

Perhaps 158s are the same?

 

[anamyd]

Also, sorry if i sound a bit naggy but if the technique does differ at all, what would the "normal" technique be on other lines? Which Notches would be selected at what speeds?

In this video at Hebden Bridge it sounds as though the driver starts in Notch 3, then goes into Notch 5 at approx 5mph and then into 7 at approx 15mph.

gosh that's a rattly 158!

 

[Kurolus Rex]

gosh that's a rattly 158!

Indeed, looks like a refurbished one too (at least by the cleanliness of it). You'd think they'd fix those things during the refurb but i guess not

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Don't know if it helps, but class 170s don't actually give you more than notch 5 (out of 7) until 10mph is reached, even if you've selected it. You can hear the click of the relay in the cab wall behind you.

Perhaps 158s are the same?

As far as i'm aware it's possible on 158s, though i doubt it's encouraged at all. From what I've seen Notch 7 is usually only ever reached at at least 15mph. The video in the OP is certainly odd though. On most videos of trains on that line they don't appear to go above Notch 4 or 5 whilst they're in the platform, so i can only assume that it's simply not easy to tell from a passengers perspective and the driver is indeed taking a 3,5,7 (or 3,4,5,7) approach.

 

[atraindriver]

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[atraindriver]

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[Kurolus Rex]

You appear to be suggesting there is a fixed method of driving a given type of unit, with power notches to be selected at certain speeds.
There isn't.

Of course, but there is still a vague pattern if you're starting off on a level gradient. Most drivers on my line use a vaguely similar starting technique, even if it does differ ever so slightly from driver to driver or even station to station. You wouldn't for example put it straight into Notch 7, and most drivers would start in Notch 3 on level gradients; that's a pattern. I'm looking for vague guide lines, not something that's exactly standardised to the mph (because there isn't one).

 

[computerSaysNo]

Out of interest, what would people's driving technique be for starting from a stand on a 1 in 50 incline? Brakes in step 1 to prevent rolling back, power to notch 3, release brake then straight to notch 4 or 5 to get up some speed?

 

[Johncleesefan]

As a general rule it’s notch 2 build the revs. Brake off into notch 4 then 5 at 5mph 6 at 10mph and 7 at 15mph. As I said a general rule

 

[Kurolus Rex]

As a general rule it’s notch 2 build the revs. Brake off into notch 4 then 5 at 5mph 6 at 10mph and 7 at 15mph. As I said a general rule

Is that the Northern technique? Sounds more reminiscent of the ATW/TFW technique.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Out of interest, what would people's driving technique be for starting from a stand on a 1 in 50 incline? Brakes in step 1 to prevent rolling back, power to notch 3, release brake then straight to notch 4 or 5 to get up some speed?

I'd imagine so yes from what Llama has said, some might even go straight into Notch 5 but don't quote me on that.

 

[Eccles1983]

I got straight to notch 5.

Most of the 158's lack the grunt to move from 3. So 5, then 7

 

[trainmananthon]

I believe the normal driving technique at northern is 3-5-7, however the most common one i seem to hear is 4-7. 5-7 or straight into 7 are also very common for me too.

I do also believe that most if not all northern 158s have been previously modified to not take full power straight away. I think most take full power at approx 5mph but the rest (ex Wessex ones) only take full power at about 15mph.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

I believe the normal driving technique at northern is 3-5-7, however the most common one i seem to hear is 4-7. 5-7 or straight into 7 are also very common for me too.

I do also believe that most if not all northern 158s have been previously modified to not take full power straight away. I think most take full power at approx 5mph but the rest (ex Wessex ones) only take full power at about 15mph.

Hmmm, that would explain the video in the OP then. That seems to be rare on the Hull-Scarborough line though, it's mostly Notch 3, then 4 once rolling and after that it's not very clear.

Here's a good video of a typical departure on the line (skip to 1:23)

 

[atraindriver]

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[Kurolus Rex]

Wouldn't you? That's precisely what the Derby RTC instructed drivers to do with the class 150 Sprinters.

The TOC I trained with was no more specific than "low notch to fill the gearbox then full power", choose your own low notch. Other TOCs are apparently more prescriptive during training but less so once out on your own. In some cases the instructor you train with will have his/her own routine which is how they will train you, and that may be very different to another instructor at the same depot let alone elsewhere on the same company.

There are no "guidelines" that you can hold a driver to across the country, and I think you're wasting your time trying to find anything that could pass for guidelines.

I think you're mistaken, i'm not looking for guidelines for across the country, but the Northern ones on the Hull-Scarborough line specifically. It seems to differ quite a bit most of the time to the ordinary Northern procedure in that full power seems to be taken much slower. 4:30 on this video is a good example:

 

[Kurolus Rex]

After taking a closer look at footage and watching a 158 depart Beverley yesterday, it might be that most of the stations do in fact have low speed limits coming out of the station. At Beverley for example there is definitely a 25mph speed limit entering the station which would explain why the driver doesn't go above Notch 4. In these time stamps you can hear the driver idling after departure before taking power and proceeding to Notch 7.

Hunmanby: 15:43
Filey: 19:46

Are there any good sources on speed limits on the Hull-Scarborough line?

Also, an additional question: When proceeding to full power at a decent speed (e.g. going from Notch 3 to Notch 7 at a speed of say 60mph) is the same semi-progressive approach taken (Notch 5, then 7) or is it acceptable or common for drivers to go straight into Notch 7?

Thanks for the replies!

 

[Bletchleyite]

Wouldn't you? That's precisely what the Derby RTC instructed drivers to do with the class 150 Sprinters.

As a kid on all 14x and 15x it was definitely <set of 7 relay clicks> followed by a full-power "vroom"...I think things have moved on since then though.

 

[Mathew S]

Are there any good sources on speed limits on the Hull-Scarborough line?

Sectional appendix?

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Sectional appendix?

Couldn't find anything for the Hull-Scarborough/Yorkshire Coast Line in either of the PDF searches. Seems to be a bit of a hassle to set up, hate to be that guy but could anyone who is familiar with this software take a few looks (screenshots etc)? I would be very grateful!

 

[Mathew S]

Seems to be a bit of a hassle to set up, hate to be that guy but could anyone who is familiar with this software take a few looks (screenshots etc)? I would be very grateful!

You can just open the PDFs from the Network Rail website: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...anies/national-electronic-sectional-appendix/

 

[Kurolus Rex]

You can just open the PDFs from the Network Rail website: https://www.networkrail.co.uk/indus...anies/national-electronic-sectional-appendix/

I checked that, no results for the Hull-Scarborough line or Yorkshire Coastal Line.

 

[Mathew S]

I checked that, no results for the Hull-Scarborough line or Yorkshire Coastal Line.

Yes there are, you want the document titled "London North Eastern Sectional Appendix March 2019.pdf". You'll have to access the .pdf and work through it to find the locations you're interested in.

 

[Kurolus Rex]

Yes there are, you want the document titled "London North Eastern Sectional Appendix March 2019.pdf". You'll have to access the .pdf and work through it to find the locations you're interested in.

Apologies! I assumed that one was for LNER routes only. I'll take a look!